Blood Lance

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**Joey**

If it didn't require a to-hit, it would just be a PSYCHIC attack, rather than a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack.
Note that the eldar "Mind War" is NOT a psychic shooting attack, therefore does not require a roll to hit.
This debate was settled a few pages ago.

**rigeld2**

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rolling to Hit applies to powers like "Smite" that have a Str, AP, and Type profile for purposes of shooting or powers that state they are a psychic shooting attack.

Fixed that for you with actual rules.

**nosferatu1001**

Joey - I suggest you look at the Eldar FAQ. Its been a PSA for a LONG time now.

**chewielight**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Theres no target for a vibrocannon either.

Yeah but there is a clause in the actual rule which states it needs to make a roll to hit.

**nosferatu1001**

As opposed to PSAs which need to roll to hit, you mean?

**chewielight**

Joey wrote:If it didn't require a to-hit, it would just be a PSYCHIC attack, rather than a PSYCHIC SHOOTING attack.
Note that the eldar "Mind War" is NOT a psychic shooting attack, therefore does not require a roll to hit.
This debate was settled a few pages ago.

It doesnt require a roll to hit because it isnt aiming at anything. Thats my point. There is no target but a direction. The power doesnt follow most weapons (not even the VC as it has a profile).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:As opposed to PSAs which need to roll to hit, you mean?

So your stating that ALL PSA's need to roll to hit and there are no exceptions? This is why FAQ's are not erratas. If it targeted a unit or model I would agree with you, but this is not the case with BL.
We like to say this is a permissive rule set and all that it entails,however you would need permission in the codex:BA to follow normal shooting rules which BL tells you not to since shooting attacks and PSA's MUST follow all shooting rules unles stated otherwise.
To confuse the argument further (I am sure this has been said already) Shooting wether psyhic or normal works as follows.
1. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)
2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction)
3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)
4. Roll to wound
5. take saves
6. remove casulties.

As you can see based on the BRB and C:BA there would be no to hit roll needed as well as no way for the power to miss.
In none of the arguements has it been disproved that we have permission to ignore the wording in C:BA or BRB on how to follow sequence in shooting nor how this paticular PSA works.

**imweasel**

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but bringing up the vibro cannon, while useful, really isn't.

By using a similar weapon to explain how this works would mean that 40k rules rulings are based on precedent.

Which they aren't. Just keep that in mind folks...

**chewielight**

imweasel wrote:Not to rain on anyone's parade, but bringing up the vibro cannon, while useful, really isn't.

By using a similar weapon to explain how this works would mean that 40k rules rulings are based on precedent.

Which they aren't. Just keep that in mind folks...

That is the problem is that precedent needs to follow something EXACTLY the same. There is no RAI v RAW on this one because they changed the wording from this power as opposed to all other PSA's.

**Stoffer**

Oh hey, had this exact discussion today. I wish GW would specifically clear this up as the wording can really be interpreted both ways.

**BlapBlapBlap**

The Codex states, and I quote:

Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarian's base - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the Lance's path suffers a single Str 8 AP1 hit with the Lance Type.

So:
Psychic Test (If failed nothing happens)
Roll 4D6 and add results
Extend a line from the base of the Librarian in any direction which is as long as the total in the last step
Roll to wound enemy units under the line.
Take saves and apply results.

All cleared up.

**rigeld2**

Wow. Its a good thing no one else ever quoted the rule or cited that sentence. You sure showed us.

**Kilkrazy**

What does that post add to the debate?

**Joey**

Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?

Well quoting the text itself is pointless. No one is saying "ohh the rules specifically say that it doesn't have to hit". On the contrary, they are saying that the rules do NOT say that, hence the need to roll to hit.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Joey wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?

Well quoting the text itself is pointless. No one is saying "ohh the rules specifically say that it doesn't have to hit". On the contrary, they are saying that the rules do NOT say that, hence the need to roll to hit.

Actually the rules quoted says it "hits" implying a roll to hit is not needed.

**Joey**

sigh.
No, it's simple English syntax. I'm not going to teach you how to read and write but I suggest you re-read the original wording.

**chewielight**

rigeld2 wrote:Wow. Its a good thing no one else ever quoted the rule or cited that sentence. You sure showed us.

There is really no need for snarkish comments and snide remarks.

Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?

Nothing at all.

Joey wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:What does that post add to the debate?

Well quoting the text itself is pointless. No one is saying "ohh the rules specifically say that it doesn't have to hit". On the contrary, they are saying that the rules do NOT say that, hence the need to roll to hit.

If you follow my turn sequence comment, this falls in line and no one has argued against it with anything other than (IT's a PSA). Once again follow my arguement on the power and PSA's in general and its almost impossbile to counter it.

Joey wrote:sigh.
No, it's simple English syntax. I'm not going to teach you how to read and write but I suggest you re-read the original wording.

Once again there isnt a reason for snide comments Joey. What you,Rigeld2 and a few others have been argueing against this entire time is that its a PSA and hence via FAQ rolls to hit are required. What the FAQ is alluding to is that PSA's are shooting attacks that follow the rules for shooting outlined in the BRB.Please come up with something that isnt a backlash on the debate that will prove your points.

**Happyjew**

As was pointed out, and if you check the codex you can confirm this yourself, there are other powers on the same page that specifically state that they either auto-hit or don't require a to hit roll. Yet, this is lacking from Blood Lance. Since nothing in Blood Lance tells you that it does not require a to hit roll, and it's a PSA, you MUST roll to hit. If successful, you then roll for distance and draw the line.

**chewielight**

once again you are not following the shooting sequence and the wording isnt the same. Just because there are three powers that are worded auto hit means nothing and brings nothing to this debate.The others have autohit in the power because of how their powers work and because they would be following PSA (shooting sequence rules) if not for the autohit tidbit. So there still isnt any reasonable arguement that refutes what I have written.

**rigeld2**

You claim there's no need for a target. You claim there's no way to check range. You left out checking Line of Sight.

There is a target - the unit you're trying to hit with the line you're going to draw.

There is a way to check range - the max range is 24".

You do have to check LoS to the target unit.

You do have to roll to hit.

There are no - zero, nada, none - exceptions in the BL rules exempting you from any of those. The "hit all under the line" allows you to hit multiple units after you hit the first one.

It's a PSA. It must follow certain rules. Skipping LOS, targeting, etc. when there is not an exemption/exception is breaking the rules.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

There is no target, you can draw the line over nothing if you choose.

No way to check range, it's range is random. there's only a max possibility. so 4"-24"

Disagree to check LoS, nowhere are you told to. However as it's a dread it can only fire in its arc iirc.

No roll to hit, as units under the line are hit already.

Units suffer a hit under the line. It'd be like rolling to hit with Vortex of Doom, than rolling the scatter to see if it hits or scatters.

It's a PSA it follows certain rules that apply.

**chewielight**

rigeld2 wrote:You claim there's no need for a target. You claim there's no way to check range. You left out checking Line of Sight.
It isnt a claim its how the rule works.
There is a target - the unit you're trying to hit with the line you're going to draw.
Where in the power does it state that you are targeting a unit?It doesnt just a direction. You cant make up rules to suite your case.

There is a way to check range - the max range is 24".
The line draw from the 4d6 is the range (I never stated range wasnt an issue just the results is the debate)

You do have to check LoS to the target unit.
Once again no target unit needed as the power states differently. LOS wasnt contended against. Dont know where you got this part.

You do have to roll to hit.

There are no - zero, nada, none - exceptions in the BL rules exempting you from any of those. The "hit all under the line" allows you to hit multiple units after you hit the first one.

It's a PSA. It must follow certain rules. Skipping LOS, targeting, etc. when there is not an exemption/exception is breaking the rules.

You are reaching here brother and reaching badly. As you can see I have proven that your arguements arent valid. Stating you must roll to hit doesnt validate your stance,because you would need to prove your stance, which you havent. There are exceptions in BL as I have laid out in very plain context which still hasnt been argued against. You are correct that as a PSA you must follow certain rules and those rules are the same as shooting with any other ranged weapon(unless a rules exempts you in which BL does). You cant enforce rules when the codex gives an exemtion. The exemption is in the wording of the BL power as I wrote prior. BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.

**rigeld2**

chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.

Yes. Correct. 100%.

Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.

PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.

By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.

**Happyjew**

Retracted. Was responding to something on the first page.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

rigeld2 wrote:
chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.

Yes. Correct. 100%.

Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.

PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.

By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.

It says to draw a line, it does not say pick a unit eh? no target
How do you check LoS if you have no target?
Show me a rule that allows you to measure out more than the weapon can potentially go? that seems like pre measuring to me.
Units the line touches are hit. Again how do you play Vortex of Doom? Roll to hit, than roll the scatter?

**chewielight**

rigeld2 wrote:
chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.

Yes. Correct. 100%.

Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
see my comment about #1
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
see my comment on LOS
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
See my comment on range
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.
See my comment on rolling to hit

PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.
I have addressed this time and again.

By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.

Sigh. I have already shown you the rule for ALL of those items and the last about PSA but I will do so again due to I love a good debate.These are the rules for the power as it affects being a shooting attack or in other words a PSA (which again is pyschic SHOOTING attack that follows ALL shooting rules except if told differently which BL does)
1.. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)BL states that you choose a direction (you cant force someone to choose a unit when the power states differently (permissive rules state you need permission to make me choose a target or permission for me to actually choose one What it does give you is permission to choose a direction and only a direction) Your making up your own rules based on what you WISH the rules states.
2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction) I know it will upset you on this but I have no other choice. Check range for a direction is the KEY here not a unit, also the fun about this is that there is no checking of range because its not a check but an actual measurement (ok I am reaching a tad but serisouly this is silly to begin with). TLOS isnt the issue. TLOS would matter if you had to target a unit and since that isnt the case what are you drawing LOS. This doesnt change the power nor how it works. Once again your attempting for force what you wish instead of what is.
3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)
4. Roll to wound
5. take saves
6. remove casulties.

PSA is about shooting and shooting attacks DO require a roll to hit unless wargear or in this case power tells you differently. This is my point.
Addtionally if you had to roll to hit you would be breaking BRB because you would not be following the rules for shooting. You cant therefore pick a target,roll to hit, THEN check range and do your wound/armor rolls along with the rest. So do we follow BRB/codex as RAW or RAI. You must follow them in sequence along with all shooting attacks either normal or PSA. Better yet lets turn the table Show me the rule that backs up your stance. Show me the rule that states you can ignore the shooting rules.
Your move sir.

**rigeld2**

1.. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)BL states that you choose a direction (you cant force someone to choose a unit when the power states differently (permissive rules state you need permission to make me choose a target or permission for me to actually choose one What it does give you is permission to choose a direction and only a direction) Your making up your own rules based on what you WISH the rules states.

Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other - I don't play BA and no one I know does, so I'm not wishing anything. Please don't assume that I'm biased one way or the other.
You have explicit permission to pick a target because it's a PSA. Guess what other power draws a line in any direction, and still has a target and LOS requirements and has to roll to hit? If you're going to argue that "choose a direction" is your target, I'm going to break out a protractor and demand you pick a degree. Because similar to pre-measuring, you can't lay down the line and then say that's where you're going to put it.

2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction) I know it will upset you on this but I have no other choice. Check range for a direction is the KEY here not a unit, also the fun about this is that there is no checking of range because its not a check but an actual measurement (ok I am reaching a tad but serisouly this is silly to begin with). TLOS isnt the issue. TLOS would matter if you had to target a unit and since that isnt the case what are you drawing LOS. This doesnt change the power nor how it works. Once again your attempting for force what you wish instead of what is.

Again with your assumptions. You have a 24" range on the power. If you measure and your target unit isn't in range, there's no point in continuing with the other steps. You munged LOS in here with range, but you do need to check LOS.

3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)

Roll to hit the first unit, the line sentence is clarifying that you don't have to roll for the rest (if the power hits). The power does not state no roll is needed, it does not state that the power automatically hits, it doesn't say "instead of rolling to hit" or have any other similar language... unlike the other BA powers on the same page that do actually skip the roll to hit step.

Your move sir.

This isn't tennis or any other game, because I seriously doubt either of us will "win" this debate. I was silently letting the thread die before, now how about we just let it die and say that it needs to be FAQed either way.

Also - please use punctuation and paragraphs. It makes your posts much easier to read.

**chewielight**

rigeld2 wrote:
1.. Pick a target (There isnt a target so you dont follow this)BL states that you choose a direction (you cant force someone to choose a unit when the power states differently (permissive rules state you need permission to make me choose a target or permission for me to actually choose one What it does give you is permission to choose a direction and only a direction) Your making up your own rules based on what you WISH the rules states.
Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other - I don't play BA and no one I know does, so I'm not wishing anything. Please don't assume that I'm biased one way or the other.
You have explicit permission to pick a target because it's a PSA. Guess what other power draws a line in any direction, and still has a target and LOS requirements and has to roll to hit? If you're going to argue that "choose a direction" is your target, I'm going to break out a protractor and demand you pick a degree. Because similar to pre-measuring, you can't lay down the line and then say that's where you're going to put it.
Then you would be breaking the rules with C:BA. It doesnt because it says it doesnt. Break out your protractor all you like it makes no difference. You cant enforce a rule that neither the BRB or C:BA states you can, hence you would need permission.Actually based on C:BA it does state you can "just lay down a line".

2. Check range (with BL you dont follow this either because it tells you to extend a line 4d6 in any direction) I know it will upset you on this but I have no other choice. Check range for a direction is the KEY here not a unit, also the fun about this is that there is no checking of range because its not a check but an actual measurement (ok I am reaching a tad but serisouly this is silly to begin with). TLOS isnt the issue. TLOS would matter if you had to target a unit and since that isnt the case what are you drawing LOS. This doesnt change the power nor how it works. Once again your attempting for force what you wish instead of what is.
Again with your assumptions. You have a 24" range on the power. If you measure and your target unit isn't in range, there's no point in continuing with the other steps. You munged LOS in here with range, but you do need to check LOS.
Assumptions arent the issue, true RAW IS. Your dont have a set range. You keep trying to gloss over the actual rules though. You dont roll to hit until you choose a target. LOS would be an issue if you targeted a unit and I would agree that if your BL hit a unit while following through with the results that unless you had LOS you couldnt hit because the power doesnt let you ignore LOS.See I dont disagree with this line of reasoning.

3. Roll to hit (with BL ANY UNIT under the line suffers a single hit and hence you cant roll to hit and then hit anyway) This is where the roll to hit based on your arguement would be but the power tells you it hits so no roll needed.(mind war and other PSA's along with almost all shooting attacks follow this as well. VC states that the roll to hit is needed BEFORE following all the shooting sequence.This is the Exception to the shooting rule and not an example and fails as an example.)

Roll to hit the first unit, the line sentence is clarifying that you don't have to roll for the rest (if the power hits). The power does not state no roll is needed, it does not state that the power automatically hits, it doesn't say "instead of rolling to hit" or have any other similar language... unlike the other BA powers on the same page that do actually skip the roll to hit step.

You cant roll to hit first sir, you just cant. Shooting rules are fairly easily outlined. Making someone roll to hit is actually breaking the rules. It does state that you hit though as long as you fullfill the other requirements. The other BA powers that you and others are flounting are ALL powers that target actual units and that is why they put automatically hit there. They are ALL powers that follow normal shooting rules in that they all have a target,a range,a roll to hit (hits automatically), and an outcome. I really cant see the logic in your arguement.

Your move sir.

This isn't tennis or any other game, because I seriously doubt either of us will "win" this debate. I was silently letting the thread die before, now how about we just let it die and say that it needs to be FAQed either way.

Also - please use punctuation and paragraphs. It makes your posts much easier to read.

Punctuation and paragraphs on a cell phone sucks LOL. Sorry I will try harder in the future.
I am not making a game out of this debate. I truely feel that the arguements that have followed are not correct and that is why I have made my case. Said thing is I am one of these guys who if I believe is right I dont back down unless I am shown a logical resolution or pointed our clearly I am wrong. I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.

**nosferatu1001**

Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

**Brother Ramses**

rigeld2 wrote:
chewielight wrote:BTW it does allow you to skip certain rules or rule sequences if the passage STATES that you can.

Yes. Correct. 100%.

Show me the rule that allows BL to not pick a target.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check LOS.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not check range.
Show me the rule that allows BL to not roll to hit.

PSAs must follow shooting rules unless there is an exception listed in the power.

By the way, if you're just going to quote that 4d6" line again - don't. It's a waste of my time and yours for you and I to continuously repeat the same argument over and over.

Wrong.

This is where your entire argument falls apart because it is based on the above false premise. The BRB tells you that exceptions to the general rules on EMPLOYING psychic shooting powers will be in the codexes. You do not complete a general rules for employing psychic shooting attacks checklist. If the codex gives you direction on how to employ the psychic power that is different from the general rules, you follow the codex. That is it.

Read the rules for Thunderclap, Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Living Lightning, and Jaws of the World Wolf. You will see prime examples of how you follow the general rules for employing a psychic shooting attack, how you follow codex exceptions for employing a psychic shooting attack, and how you follow BOTH the general and codex exception to employing a psychic shooting attack.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.

**Tri**

To be frank the problem is the rule don't line up well.
Psychic shooting attacks need LOS, range, to hit ... and so on
but the blood lance does not have a range unless you roll the dice and then measuring the 4D6" gives you the line under which models are hit.

Vibrocannon is a good example of games workshop getting it right, as they tell you exactly what to do. They tell you don't need a target (so no need for LOS), they tell you to roll to hit and they tell you that next you draw the line see what's hit.

Blood lance does not. It tells you it fires in a straight line 4D6" and models under the line take a hit. Without that FAQ there would be no question of rolling to hit and questionable about the target. As it stands this power and other Do require a to hit roll as that's what the FAQ tells us to do ... even if such a thing is stupid.