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btws, you guys know the OP left awhile ago. He is going with the "its a long and skinny template" theory

Config2 wrote:btws, you guys know the OP left awhile ago. He is going with the "its a long and skinny template" theory

No he's not. I voted yes.

Happyjew wrote:If Vortex uses the blast marker, then you use blast rules, which state "Instead of rolling to hit..."

Yep and units under the line suffer a hit, and there is no target, only a direction. There is no defined range so you cannot check til its rolled.

Every PSA falls inot 1 of 4 categories.
1. PSA's that state "This power automatically hits..."
2. PSA's that state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
3. PSA's that use either the template or blast marker(s)
4. PSA's that require a 'To Hit' roll.
Which group does Blood Lance fall in? (Here's a hint, it's not 1, 2, or 3)

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.

Because it adds nothing as it is a badly written FAQ. GW breaks their game with that one FAQ because if I take that FAQ as written, I can have board wide affect of Murderous Hurricane because I auto-miss when I am not in range of my targeted unit.

So you get to ignore rules/FAQs when you feel like it? That's a cool story bro.

Not at all. I play it according to the FAQ. The problem with you trying to relate it to Jaws of the World Wolf or Blood Lance is that there is more then one way to miss when shooting.

BRB: pg 17: CHECK RANGE:

All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically.

So to shut down your attempt at throwing a monkey wrench into my arument, all the FAQ for Murderous Hurricane does is introduce yet another codex exception to the psychic shooting power that overrides the above general rule. The codex gives you an exception to employ the psychic power by telling you that the unit takes 3d6 str 3 hits with ap -. The FAQ gives you an exception to employ the psychic shooting power when it tells you that even when the hits miss, the target unit is still affected, which is contrary to the above general rule.

But as I said, it is a crappy FAQ because of what it allows. It does not negate the argument that Blood Lance does not need to roll to hit because it is a codex exception to employing a psychic shooting attack.

Brother Ramses wrote:
BRB: pg 17: CHECK RANGE:

All weapons have a maximum effective range, which is the the furthest distance they can shoot. If a target is beyond this maximum range, the shot misses automatically.

And Blood Lance maximum effective range is 24". If the nearest enemy unit is 24.1" or more away, then Blood Lance automatically misses.

Rolling to hit on an attack that has a defined entry on how it is designed to hit is redundant.

There are already three variables working against Blood Lance going off. A Psychic Test based on leadership and a possible Psychic Hood are the first two, that all PSA follow. The third is a 4D6 line being rolled to hit the targets. It even states units under the line suffer "a hit"

Adding a fourth deterrent before saves are even factored in would be just plain comedy and wouldn't fit in at all with current rules structure for firing.

Happyjew wrote:Every PSA falls inot 1 of 4 categories.
1. PSA's that state "This power automatically hits..."
2. PSA's that state "Instead of rolling to hit..."
3. PSA's that use either the template or blast marker(s)
4. PSA's that require a 'To Hit' roll.
Which group does Blood Lance fall in? (Here's a hint, it's not 1, 2, or 3)

Every unit under the line suffers a blah blah blah hit looks like a number 1 to me but whatever. Wait huh It doesnt need me to roll to hit because it states its already hit ... weird

No, the entry defines how to hit MULTIPLE units. Otherwise you could only hit 1 unit. If your to hit roll fails you hit nothing. Otherwise you hit all units under the line. And for those who have asked, only 1 to hit roll is required. If that is successful you hit all the units under the line. If it is not successful, you hit NOTHING

Happyjew wrote:No, the entry defines how to hit MULTIPLE units. Otherwise you could only hit 1 unit. If your to hit roll fails you hit nothing. Otherwise you hit all units under the line. And for those who have asked, only 1 to hit roll is required. If that is successful you hit all the units under the line. If it is not successful, you hit NOTHING

Where it states it hits. that is a hit, no roll is needed.

Where does it state that it AUTOMATICALLY hits all units under the line, or INSTEAD OF ROLLING TO HIT draw a line? You do not have permission to ignore the rules for PSAs. There is NOTHING in the rule for the power that allows you to Skip steps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:There is no defined range so you cannot check til its rolled.

However there IS a maximum effective range (24"), which is what you check before shooting. So yes, you can check MAXIMUM effective range.

Happyjew wrote:Where does it state that it AUTOMATICALLY hits all units under the line, or INSTEAD OF ROLLING TO HIT draw a line? You do not have permission to ignore the rules for PSAs. There is NOTHING in the rule for the power that allows you to Skip steps.

"Any enemy unit in the lances path suffers a single strength 8, AP 1 hit"

It is implied that it automatically hits IF you can MAKE the DISTANCE with 4D6.

Of course, rolling to hit a unit behind a wall without TLoS makes sense! Or rolling to hit once against 5 units!

lol

You guys read into it too much


EDIT:


Btw, the reason it ignores a roll to hit is because it has it's own entry on how it shoots. It's doesn't give a flat profile like smite. It gives a detailed entry on how to use the power. The FAQ was for scrubs who claimed Smite auto-hit.

Happyjew wrote:Where does it state that it AUTOMATICALLY hits all units under the line, or INSTEAD OF ROLLING TO HIT draw a line? You do not have permission to ignore the rules for PSAs. There is NOTHING in the rule for the power that allows you to Skip steps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:There is no defined range so you cannot check til its rolled.

However there IS a maximum effective range (24"), which is what you check before shooting. So yes, you can check MAXIMUM effective range.

Actually the max range is what you roll. If you wanna say it's 24 than you're wrong as I doubt I'll roll 4 6's every time.

and If a Unit suffers a str 8 ap 1 *hit* as it states in it's rule there's no reason to roll. Please look at tesla weapons ( on a 6 and additional 2 hits are scored IIRC) wanna roll to hit with those too?

No the max range is 24". Since the range of the weapon is variable, you have a range of 4"-24". However, 24" is still the MAXIMUM range that weapon can possibly shoot.

HappyJew, you need to go back a page and read why I was quoting range. It has nothing to do with Blood Lance, but instead it was answering Kirsanth and his FAQ challenge of Murderous Hurricane.

You really need to read the BRB on psychic powers. As passionate as you appear about insisting on permission based statements such as "instead of rolling to hit" or similiar that is not how the rules are written. If the codex tells you to do something different then the general rules, you follow the codex. That is it. No checklists, no specific permissions.

Except the power specifically says it's a PSA. PSAs have requirements. Therefore there *is* a checklist to follow, and there *must* be exemptions to avoid them.

We are debating whether it hits automatically, not how far it can go!

BlapBlapBlap wrote:We are debating whether it hits automatically, not how far it can go!

It's part of the same debate. Either the implications in BL allow it to be exempt from PSA rules, or they don't.

It hits automatically! It says nothing in the FAQ and the codex says it hits automatically! Range works exactly as in other PSAs but this hits as long as it reaches! There is your answer!

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It hits automatically! It says nothing in the FAQ and the codex says it hits automatically! Range works exactly as in other PSAs but this hits as long as it reaches! There is your answer!

Ohhhh yeah I missed that part in the rules explanation where it said "Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit".

Brother Ramses wrote:HappyJew, you need to go back a page and read why I was quoting range. It has nothing to do with Blood Lance, but instead it was answering Kirsanth and his FAQ challenge of Murderous Hurricane.

I basically understand that, and almost entirely agree with you.

That does not mean I ignore the rule though, any more than I ignore any of them.

In all honesty, I entirely expect it to be answered in an FAQ the way you read it.

Until then, however. . .I am agreeing to disagree.

I never mind playing the weaker interpretation for my army - in this case I play Tyranids, so I would not insist on a to-hit roll.
However, if you are not taking one, then I may retract that last sentence since we are apparently on different sides of that idea.

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:HappyJew, you need to go back a page and read why I was quoting range. It has nothing to do with Blood Lance, but instead it was answering Kirsanth and his FAQ challenge of Murderous Hurricane.

I basically understand that, and almost entirely agree with you.

That does not mean I ignore the rule though, any more than I ignore any of them.

In all honesty, I entirely expect it to be answered in an FAQ the way you read it.

Until then, however. . .I am agreeing to disagree.

I never mind playing the weaker interpretation for my army - in this case I play Tyranids, so I would not insist on a to-hit roll.
However, if you are not taking one, then I may retract that last sentence since we are apparently on different sides of that idea.

I only ignore the ability to abuse the affect mechanic by automatically missing a target out of range. That was my point of ignoring it, not because it is inconvenient to my argument. As I pointed out, the fact that the FAQ tells you that Murderous Hurricane can miss is not proof that it rolls to hit because you can miss by being out of range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It hits automatically! It says nothing in the FAQ and the codex says it hits automatically! Range works exactly as in other PSAs but this hits as long as it reaches! There is your answer!

Ohhhh yeah I missed that part in the rules explanation where it said "Blood Lance does not require a roll to hit".

Ohhhhh yeah, you also missed where exceptions to employ psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes and your insistence on a made up statement of "does not require a roll to hit" is not required.

Brother Ramses wrote:I only ignore the ability to abuse the affect mechanic by automatically missing a target out of range. That was my point of ignoring it, not because it is inconvenient to my argument. As I pointed out, the fact that the FAQ tells you that Murderous Hurricane can miss is not proof that it rolls to hit because you can miss by being out of range.

I understand that.

It is unlimited range though, by that FAQ.
If you do not use it as such, more power and respect to you.

Which is why I see it as a related issue.

kirsanth wrote:In all honesty, I entirely expect it to be answered in an FAQ the way you read it.

Until then, however. . .I am agreeing to disagree.

This.

kirsanth wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I only ignore the ability to abuse the affect mechanic by automatically missing a target out of range. That was my point of ignoring it, not because it is inconvenient to my argument. As I pointed out, the fact that the FAQ tells you that Murderous Hurricane can miss is not proof that it rolls to hit because you can miss by being out of range.

I understand that.

It is unlimited range though, by that FAQ.
If you do not use it as such, more power and respect to you.

Which is why I see it as a related issue.

The psychic power does have a specific range, however the effect does not. Bad writing is bad writing.

Anyone been into gw and got a definitive answer from the horses mouth?

Read the tenets of this forum, and note that, unless you get a FAQ from the studio then the answer is, by definition, not definitive.

tournytom wrote:Anyone been into gw and got a definitive answer from the horses mouth?

Red shirts in the GW stores don't get any more 'official' information than we do. They're register monkeys peddling GW's wares, not rules experts. They range from well informed and smart to ignorant and stupid. I've encountered the gamut.

I'd say the one exception would be the guys working in Nottingham. Well, *should* be the ones working there.

I apologize for the threadomancy but GW has finally weighed in with an official FAQ for Blood Lance. Haven't checked for the other 'Line' attacks yet though.

Q: As Blood Lance is a psychic shooting attack, does it
need to roll To Hit? (p63)
A: No.

Source: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170004a_Blood_Angels_FAQ_Version_1_3_January_2012.pdf page 3 question 6

Yeah we know. We've known for a couple of weeks now.