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quick question, since the Blood Lance is a shooting power, does it still have to roll to hit?

kinda, because you gotta roll 4d6 to see if the lance reaches your target.

I thought you had to roll to hit with all psychic shooting powers (excepting the template powers of course)? I don't have a rule book with me... but that was my impression.

But... come to think of it, this is more of a template isn't it?? Just a long, thin, template... ?

BGB FAQ:
Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

Blood Lance:
This power is a psychic shooting attack.


So, yes, you have to roll:
1) Psychic test (if fail, power isn't cast)
2) To hit using the psyker's BS (if miss, power does nothing)
3) The distance the line extends
4) To wound/armor penetration

So you'd need to roll to hit each unit in the line?

But Blood Lance tells you how to determine if a unit is hit. Rolling a to Hit roll is not one of them.

Step 1: Psychic test
Step 2: Roll to Hit
Step 3: Roll 4D6 for distance
Step 4: Roll to Wound, Armor Pen., as usual.

And you're done!

You could roll to hit but that would do nothing as every thing the 4D6 line touched is hit.

1) psychic test
2) roll 4d6 and measure line
3) anything touched by line is hit
4) roll to would/pen
5) roll saves

and done

IIRC Blood Lance does not need to roll to hit ... need to check the wording. Anyone with a Codex handy feel free to help out.

You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.

That seems like the most rational thing to do, rolling for each unit would be silly.
Thanks guys!

nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.

Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line

It's the same with the Eldar Vibro cannons. You roll to hit (and you don't need to declare a target). If you hit, then you draw the line and the weapon hits every unit the line passes through.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line

Not really. It requires a roll to hit, per the rules. How difficult it actually it is to hit things depends on the BS of the psyker.

DarknessEternal wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line

Not really. It requires a roll to hit, per the rules. How difficult it actually it is to hit things depends on the BS of the psyker.

Hmm you'll miss 1/3 of the time? I feel wronged by sheer definition, if you pass a psy test the power is going off, yet now with a power that causes hits mind you. You need to roll to hit, so I hit per the rules cuz that's what it does yet I have to roll to hit to see if those hits are actually caused ...

Maybe it's just my interp of the rules but I don't feel you need to roll to hit with a PSA that doesn't shoot like a gun. While we're at it roll to hit with Avenger...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.

Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line

But yo uonly get to place that line after you've rolled to hit. Kinda hard to hit if you dont place the line in the first place

nosferatu1001 wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You roll to hit, and if you miss the power has no effect. If you hit you roll 4D6 to see how many models are hit.

Kinda hard to miss with something that causes hits on units touched by an imaginary line

But yo uonly get to place that line after you've rolled to hit. Kinda hard to hit if you dont place the line in the first place

I'm missing the text for blood lance, bare with me whilst I track one down.

Placing the line is resolving the PSA, which you only do after rolling to hit.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: I feel wronged by sheer definition, if you pass a psy test the power is going off, yet now with a power that causes hits mind you. You need to roll to hit, so I hit per the rules cuz that's what it does yet I have to roll to hit to see if those hits are actually caused ...

Many other psychic shooting attacks have never been questioned about their rolling to hit. Everyone just assumed, incorrectly, that the line ones didn't have to roll. They've never had an exception to rolling to hit. If a power doesn't require a roll to hit, it specifically says so.

I guess the fundamental question is... is Blood Lance just another psychic shooting attack with variable range, or a (linear) template attack with no need to roll to hit?

I would err on the side of treating like a normal psychic shooting attack... unless convincing evidence can be presented to the contrary.

This come up all the time and the word says you extend the line and units are "hit". The other factor here is the unit is hit and not the models due to the wording. So if you only hit one unit (squad), it is one hit and not for each model under the template. Blood lance is really to kill vehicles, not troops. But, if the enemy has several squads that line up you can rack up a hit on each of those should you have the range.


Also for everyone referring to roll to hit, where doe it show that the blood lance must if it does as written in it's rules. The roll for distance projects the line as a template, much like using a flamer template. The power itself define how it hits the target. Having to roll the 4d6 already makes this power limited, having to roll to hit each unit is hardly needed.

For an example compare this power to Machine Curse. Machine curse references that "if the power hits, then" , Blood specifically states the units touched by/under the line are hit.

There is nothing to indicate it is a template or should use any rules relating to them.

I guess the question becomes do I roll to hit before or after I draw my line. Truth is I don't care beings If I hit or miss I am told the unit suffers a hit.

Generally, psychic powers list what occurs when they are used successfully.

Like bolters, for example.

You roll to hit. If successful, you roll 4d6 to determine the length of the line. As was pointed out, if it "hits" automatically, it would say something like "This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits any unit in a straight line with a range of 4d6 ""

To go further on this subject, check the rules for shooting in general on pg. 17. Before you roll to hit, you must measure your range to make sure you can even attempt to hit. So you would have to roll the 4d6 to meet this criteria and not roll to hit before you measure it out.

Second, shooting rules show "To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a d6 for each shot that is in range." The Blood lance power states that "any enemy unit in the lance's path suffers a single str 8, ap 1 hit with the 'lance' type." Due to Blood lance's wording you have already determined the units "being hit status" and would not have to roll to determine it as such. So far I have not found any reference in either BRB, Blood Angels codex, or either FAQ that point to any other answer. If there is a clearly written example please provide a page number to I can note it. I don't use that power in my list, I run Shield and Unleash Rage, but a lot of our BA players use it. Before I began using BA I had an opponent wipe out an entire squad of my marines, by wrongly stating that the power hit every model under the line... I thought that was a bit crazy, with it being s 8 and ap 1, but didn't find out until later that it only hits the unit, not the models themselves.

Sir Blayse wrote: Due to Blood lance's wording you have already determined the units "being hit status"

It doesn't mention needing to take a psychic test either. Do you skip that step too?

You roll to hit. If successful, you roll 4d6 to determine the length of the line. As was pointed out, if it "hits" automatically, it would say something like "This is a psychic shooting attack that automatically hits any unit in a straight line with a range of 4d6 "

why would it work backwards from a regular shooting attack?

No/Yes.

Been hashed out a thousand times in a thousand threads. Search and choose the opinion that you agree with and play it that way or discuss with your opponent.

With the above being the disclaimer,

Exceptions to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are in the codexes per page 50 of the BRB. So therefore if the codex tells you how to employ the psychic power that is different then the general rules, you follow the codex. Follow the rules for Blood Lance in the BA codex which tells you how the power is employed and consequently, how it hits. No roll to hit is needed.

It doesn't mention needing to take a psychic test either. Do you skip that step too?

Jump to the strawman arguement, so you have something to knockdown. All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.