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If it does not say it automatically hits (i.e Leech Essence or Psychic Scream) and it is a PSA then it requires you to roll to hit. I would play it just like an Eldar Vibro Cannon.

Sir Blayse wrote:

It doesn't mention needing to take a psychic test either. Do you skip that step too?

Jump to the strawman arguement, so you have something to knockdown. All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.

It is an issue.
1) Blood lance is a psychic power.
1a)You have to roll a psychic test (and succeed) to use a psychic power.
2) Blood lance is a psychic shooting attack.
2a)You have to roll to hit with a psychic shooting attack.
3 Blood lance mentions neither of these prerequisites.
3a) Blood lance ignores neither of these prerequisites.


I can find you entire lists of psychic powers that STATE exceptions to 3a.
Blood lance is not one of them.

Editing to add:
Feth, check Shackle Soul, Blood Boil, and Fear the Darkness on the same. . .bloody page!

You don't need to roll to hit with Avenger, why? The models under the template are auto hit.

Units under the line suffer a HIT...

"Instead of rolling to hit" - rules for blast weapons.

So, INSTEAD of rolling to hit...still means a to hit roll was required, you just do something instead.

This is different to blood lance. It has no such exception from rolling to hit.

The unit suffers a hit, Even if I miss it does. As its been stated you need to measure your line to check range ...

I miss (unit suffered a hit)
I hit (unit suffered a hit)

Imaginary lines are just that potent I guess.

No it doesnt, as you dont place the line until after you've rolled to hit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No it doesnt, as you dont place the line until after you've rolled to hit.

Wrong. Again you attempt to create a rule where one does not exist. You tried this before and were debunked before. There is no such thing as a rolling to place a line. The power tells you how to employ said power that is an exception to the general rules. The power explicitly tells you how to resolve hits, which is again an exception to the general rules for resolving hits.

Rolling to place a line? That is the best you can come up with this time?

What, in the threads where you kept parroting page 50 and were roundly debunked at every turn?

Those threads? the best you can come up with is to yet again point out p50, despite being unable to show the line "instead of rolling to hit", as an example?

Ok its a psychic shooting attack so ...
1) pass the psychic test
2) check LOS to the target unit
3) check range
4) roll to hit
5) roll to wound (pen and damage table for vehicles)
6) roll saves and remove any that fail

Now lets do that for the blood lance
1) Roll ... 4,5 cool thats under 10 he passes
2) yep he can see the target
3) ... ok check range .... Oh S!I'm going to have to draw the line and that means every thing under it is hit ...

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, in the threads where you kept parroting page 50 and were roundly debunked at every turn?

Those threads? the best you can come up with is to yet again point out p50, despite being unable to show the line "instead of rolling to hit", as an example?

Nowhere in the BRB is the requirement of, "instead rolling to hit" the standard. You keep championing that as the imaginary rule to back up your argument. The truth is that the book tells you that exception to the general rules on how psychic powers will be employed will be in the codex. There is the standard by which you rate the exception. If the codex tells you to do something different then then BRB, then you follow the codex.

I put to you again, what you have failed to answer countless times,

Blood Lance does not contain the line,

"Instead of measuring range..."

Do you still measure range? Measuring range is part of the general rules as is rolling to hit. Yet Blood Lance does not contain,

"Instead of measuring range..."

How about checking LoS? Blood Lance does not contain the line,

"Instead of checking LoS..."

Do you check LoS? Checking LoS is a general rule just like rolling to hit. Yet Blood Lance does not contain the above line.

See, your line of reasoning does not work. If you follow the standard set by the BRB, that exceptions to employ psychic powers are in the codexes, then you don't fall into your logical fallacy. The codex tells you to do something different then the BRB, you follow the codex.

Sure, roll to hit. And then, hit or miss based on BS, follow the rules in the power to determine what it does.

Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.

It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.

All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

Bookwrack wrote:

Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.

It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.

All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

So do powers that use the Template require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

jbunny wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.

It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.

All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

So do powers that use the Template require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

And to further the point I am getting from jbunny here.

So do powers that say they automatically hit require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

Wow. . .and I got called on for bringing up irrelevance?

/boggle

Keep up the good work!

Saiisil wrote:

jbunny wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:

Sir Blayse wrote: All psyker powers require the roll and that is already defined in the BRB. I've yet to see any power state you would not need to roll one. So that is not even an issue here.

It's interesting that the point went sailing over your head despite you restating it almost verbatim.

All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

So do powers that use the Template require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

And to further the point I am getting from jbunny here.

So do powers that say they automatically hit require a roll to hit? As you said the BRB says all powers need a to hit roll, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

I didn't realize that I actually need to repeat, 'the specific overrules the general,' but I thought I was dealing with people with a working grasp of English... My mistake for overestimating your and jbunny's reading comprehension.

*edit*

Or do you really need it laid out for that the general rule is 'all PSAs need to roll to hit' which would be over ruled by the more specific instance of, 'template weapons auto hit,' or PSAs that specifically say they auto-hit.

The problem is the way you worded it. "Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do" would happen to make what you are saying seem to be along the lines of "No matter what the Psychic Power says if it is a Psychic Shooting Attack you roll to hit." Nothing wrong with our reading comprehension just your choice of wording.

Saiisil wrote:The problem is the way you worded it. "Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do" would happen to make what you are saying seem to be along the lines of "No matter what the Psychic Power says if it is a Psychic Shooting Attack you roll to hit." Nothing wrong with our reading comprehension just your choice of wording.

No, his wording was right. According to the BRB, no matter what the power does it rolls to hit. Powers can override that - but knowing that takes a grasp of the english language and rules.

Here is the problem with that wording, if you are saying that no matter what the power does you roll to hit and the power says it auto hits, that is what the power does it auto hits, your saying you still need to roll to hit. It becomes a contradiction. Now saying something to the point of unless specified otherwise by the power you roll to hit and the power says it auto hits, there no longer is a position of contradiction in the wording used. That is the issue I had with his post, can't speak for jbunny but I can speak for myself. Also the BGB and the FAQ don't say no matter what the power does, it says that it is treated like firing a ranged weapon meaning that you follow the steps for firing say a Bolter for example, 1) pick target, 2) check LoS, 3) check range, 4) roll to hit. As for Blood Lance I am still on the fence because I see validity on both sides, on one side the power doesn't specifically say auto hit while the other you break the order of operations.

If it was intended to hit automatically, it would have explicitly said so in the codex or the FAQ.
Really though either way it's a badly written rule.

My take on it would be that, RAI, its template-like firing method sounds like it's supposed to be treated as an auto-hit weapon.

However, RAW, it's such a mess that I'd have to discuss it pre-game with my opponent, and I'd be happy to concede if they were uncomfortable with my interpretation of it. ...Unless they were an opportunistic WAAC type who was just looking to pounce on any sort of weakness to tip the balance in their favour, of course. Thankfully, I tend to avoid those types (competitive is great, but true WAAC tends to entail bad sportsmanship).

Pumpkin wrote:My take on it would be that, RAI, its template-like firing method sounds like it's supposed to be treated as an auto-hit weapon.

However, RAW, it's such a mess that I'd have to discuss it pre-game with my opponent, and I'd be happy to concede if they were uncomfortable with my interpretation of it. ...Unless they were an opportunistic WAAC type who was just looking to pounce on any sort of weakness to tip the balance in their favour, of course. Thankfully, I tend to avoid those types (competitive is great, but true WAAC tends to entail bad sportsmanship).

This thread wouldn't have started if my opponant wasn't like that there's too much hate on the battlefield.

1. PSA require a 'To Hit' roll. (FAQ) - general rule.
2. Template and Blast weapons do not require a 'To Hit' roll. (BGB) - specific rule.
3. Attacks that state they AUTOMATICALLY HIT do not require a 'To Hit' roll (common sense?)- specific rule.

Does Blood Lance state it automatically hit? No.
Does Blood Lance use a Template or Blast Marker? No.
Does Blood Lance need a 'To Hit' Roll? Yes.
BTW, does JOTWW need a 'To Hit' roll? I know it also uses a line drawn on the board, but I don't own the SW codex.

You left out
4. Some attacks may have alternative methods of determining a hit in their rules, these do not need to roll to hit (specific rule).
Does the Bloodlance have an alternative method listed in it's rules? Yes. No roll to hit needed. Same with JotWW and other similar powers.

You're right I did leave out number 4.
4. Some attacks instruct you to do something "instead of rolling to hit, do X" (specific).
Does Blood Lance tell you to"do X instead of rolling to hit"? No.

don_mondo wrote:You left out
4. Some attacks may have alternative methods of determining a hit in their rules, these do not need to roll to hit (specific rule).
Does the Bloodlance have an alternative method listed in it's rules? Yes. No roll to hit needed. Same with JotWW and other similar powers.

Where does it state that it automatically hits? Everything that automatically hits is [b]explicitly stated in the rules[b]. Blood Lance rules do not state that it automatically hits.
QED.

Joey wrote:

don_mondo wrote:You left out
4. Some attacks may have alternative methods of determining a hit in their rules, these do not need to roll to hit (specific rule).
Does the Bloodlance have an alternative method listed in it's rules? Yes. No roll to hit needed. Same with JotWW and other similar powers.

Where does it state that it automatically hits? Everything that automatically hits is [b]explicitly stated in the rules[b]. Blood Lance rules do not state that it automatically hits.
QED.

It does states units under the line not locked in CC or Friendly suffer a Hit.

All psyker powers require a psychic test as defined in the BRB. Just like how all psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, no matter what they actually do, as further clarified by the FAQ quoted above.

First off, your trying to misquote this. I'm showing what is a clear ruling from the BRB. It is a clear rule that all psyker powers require you to make a psychic test before you use them. This is not the point of the issue.

Blood lance clearly states that units under the line are "hit". Going by the same method being used to come up with some alternate order for handling shooting, as in rolling to hit before even choosing range... you then add in your own wording that a power saying "hit" now refers to you now needing to attempt to hit the target already declared a hit by the power.

Has anyone on this site ever asked for a ruling on this power by a judge at an official event? I only ever even seen this problem come up on this site and it would seem that it has come up before with all of the BA armies that topped the tournies for quite a while.

Just going by how the rules are written in the BRB, FAQ, and the Codex it would still seem that Lance hits the models it says it "hits." The powers quoted for using "automatic hit" have a reason for them being written that way. The first is that they only hit one target and not multiple targets. Also they don't use a clearly marked location, they only go off of range. None of this helps say that a power that says it "hits" does not in fact hit without rolling to hit. If Blood Lance only said that it is a psychic shooting attack, with 4d6 range, and is str 8 ap 1 'lance' type... then, I would say that you would have to roll to hit as normal. of course you would also have to roll to hit said target and only be able to hit one target.

BR - yawn, that again.

Did you notice the words "as an example" at the end? I guess you didnt. Try again with your fallacy ridden argument.

There is no exception given for rolling to hit, as you are assuming the line replaces the to-hit, without a rule saying that.

Roll ot hit. If you pass, place the line. Very simple. Kinda like a blast, but along a line.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - yawn, that again.

Did you notice the words "as an example" at the end? I guess you didnt. Try again with your fallacy ridden argument.

There is no exception given for rolling to hit, as you are assuming the line replaces the to-hit, without a rule saying that.

Roll ot hit. If you pass, place the line. Very simple. Kinda like a blast, but along a line.

Nos how do you check range with the blood lance? It is required for all shooting weapons but the only way i can see to do it is to roll 4D6 and measure it with a tape-measure ... which oddly draws a sort of line ...