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Or it has no range, and therefore you dont need to check range.

Not all weapons require checking range. Look at the Eldar Vibro Cannon for a regular weapon that seems to be very, very similar in function to Blood Lance. Also since, their seems to be a minimalization(?) on posting rules, I would appreciate it if someone could PM me the full text for both Blood Lance and JOTWW. I don't own the codexes (codicies?) and am curious as to what the powers actually state.

nosferatu1001 wrote:BR - yawn, that again.

Did you notice the words "as an example" at the end? I guess you didnt. Try again with your fallacy ridden argument.

There is no exception given for rolling to hit, as you are assuming the line replaces the to-hit, without a rule saying that.

Roll ot hit. If you pass, place the line. Very simple. Kinda like a blast, but along a line.

So you still won't answer the question. Dodging what destroys your argument, CHECK. Conversation is over with you yet again.

As far as I know the only PSA that does not require a 'to hit' roll and fits in with my previous points is Mind War (though I might be wrong), which works as follows:
Take Psychic Test.
Choose an unengaged model within X" and in LOS
Both roll Ld +D6
Target takes 1 wound (no armor save) per point lost by.

Happyjew wrote:As far as I know the only PSA that does not require a 'to hit' roll and fits in with my previous points is Mind War (though I might be wrong), which works as follows:
Take Psychic Test.
Choose an unengaged model within X" and in LOS
Both roll Ld +D6
Target takes 1 wound (no armor save) per point lost by.

Sadly, Mind War requires a 'to hit' roll as well, now.

Like I said, I could be wrong. Therefore all PSA fall in 1 of 4 categories:
1. Automatically Hits (No 'To Hit' roll)
2. Uses Templates or Blast Markers (No 'To Hit' roll)
3. Specifically state that 'Instead of rolling to hit...' (No 'To Hit' roll)
4. Everything else. ('To Hit' roll required)

Happyjew wrote:Like I said, I could be wrong. Therefore all PSA fall in 1 of 4 categories:
1. Automatically Hits (No 'To Hit' roll)
2. Uses Templates or Blast Markers (No 'To Hit' roll)
3. Specifically state that 'Instead of rolling to hit...' (No 'To Hit' roll)
4. Everything else. ('To Hit' roll required)

You have created standards that are not called for by the BRB.

"Automatically hits" is not the standard.
"Blast templates" is not the standard.
"Instead of rolling to hit.." is not the standard.

The standard set by the BRB is that the exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks will be in the codexes. That is it. If the codex tells you to do something different then the the BRB, you follow the codex. Nothing more, nothing less.

All the new FAQ has done is clarify that psychic shooting attacks follow the general rules for shooting attacks. That would be perfectly fine for your argument if not for the specific wording in the BRB that exceptions to the general will be in the codexes.

So while people like Nos continue to Robbie the Repeating Robot,

"Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt....Psychic shooting attacks roll to hit...bzzt...."

They continue to ignore that what they are repeating over and over is a general rule which is overridden when the codex tells you to do something different.

Why not say it should not roll to-hit because you do not even have a target until it affects a unit?

That would make some sense, at least.

Editing to add:
Saying "people like Nos" does not make it any less personal (especially since the first new thing I have read from "people like you" in this whole thread was posted by me), but if you want to talk of standards, look at the page the power is on.
In the codex.
There are 5 shooting attacks.
3 of them actually state they do not roll to-hit.
The standard then--in that codex--is to state exceptions to shooting.
Apparently.

Brother Ramses wrote:They continue to ignore that what they are repeating over and over is a general rule which is overridden when the codex tells you to do something different.

What part of the Blood Lance power gives you permission to skip the to-hit roll?

Drawing the line?

Blood Lance second paragraph wrote:This power is a psychic shooting attack. Extend a straight line, 4D6" long, from the Librarians base in any direction - this is the path taken by the Blood Lance. Any enemy unit in the lance's path suffer a single Strength 8 AP1 hit with the 'lance' type. Friendly units, and enemy units locked in closes combat, are unaffected - the lance darts over them before continuing on its course.

Right, so... Nothing. Awesome. Glad we cleared that up.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:They continue to ignore that what they are repeating over and over is a general rule which is overridden when the codex tells you to do something different.

What part of the Blood Lance power gives you permission to skip the to-hit roll?

Drawing the line?

Read page 50. There is no standard for giving permission or announcing exception. The codex exceptions on how to EMPLOY the psychic power will be in the codex. That does not require a specific permission that does not require an announcement. That tells you that if there is an exception to the employing the psychic power, it will be in the codex. If the codex tells you to hop around 6 times while screaming,

"B-A-N-A-N-A-S!"

And everything on the table is hit by a str 10 ap9 blast, then that is what you do because that is the exception on employing the psychic power that overrides the general rules for employing the psychic power. By your standard Rig, where does Blood Lance give you permission to skip checking LoS or checking range? What about declaring a target? The reason why it doesn't give you explicit permission to skip those general rules is because the codex is giving you an alternate method of employing the psychic power. The codex is giving you an an exception to the general rules for employing the psychic power.

Brother Ramses wrote:By your standard Rig, where does Blood Lance give you permission to skip checking LoS or checking range? What about declaring a target?

It doesn't. And?

The reason why it doesn't give you explicit permission to skip those general rules is because the codex is giving you an alternate method of employing the psychic power. The codex is giving you an an exception to the general rules for employing the psychic power.

So the fact that it's a psychic shooting attack is irrelevant, save that it must happen in the shooting phase and you cannot fire another weapon?
I'm... not sure I buy that.

edit: It's a permissive rules set, which means you must have permission to do things. The BRB explains the requirements of a PSA, and I don't see anything in Blood Lance that gives you permission to ignore those things.

BR - so, inability for you to avoid personal attacks, yet again. Check. "Argument" with you over, again.

Sigh.

It still rolls to hit, because it does not list an exception AS REQUIRED BY PAGE 50 to the requirement to roll to hit. That's it.

The rules for Blood Lance tell you how to determine which units are hit. Rolling to hit is not one of them.

Not sure why people have a hard time with this one.

...which means you roll to hit, as they have not provided an exception to the rule "you must roll to hit"

And yet all other PSA that do not require a 'To Hit' roll will state "Instead of rolling to hit..." (or they auto-hit/use template/marker)

jbunny wrote:The rules for Blood Lance tell you how to determine which units are hit. Rolling to hit is not one of them.

False. The PSA rules (which Blood Lance has to follow) require a roll to hit. Blood Lance doesn't say, "Instead of rolling to hit, place a line..." or anything similar to that.
Nothing overrides the BRB, therefore you must follow the base PSA rules.

Not sure why people have a hard time with this one.

Me either. OHWAIT it's because some people read rules incorrectly.

I just thought of something. nos, your saying roll to hit then place line, but there are some saying that you need to check range before rolling. How about this as a compensation to the two sides of that argument?

1) Pass Psychic Test
2) Roll 4d6 and place line check for hits
3) Roll to hit each unit the line passes over
4) Resolve hits.

But the rule says all units are HIT. Not that they have the potential to be hit. All units take a hit. I don't need to rol to see if the unit is hit, as the rules tell me the unit is hit.

I really don;t see why there is a debate here. The BRB FAQ explicitly states that anything that is called a "Psychic Shooting Attack" in its description, MUST roll to hit. Therefore powers such as:

Blood Lance
Mind War
JOTWW

All must roll to hit.

Things like the avenger don't roll to hit because of the weapon type that power is - its a template, which means you NEVER roll to hit. You are NEVER given permission to ignore this step with Blood Lance.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:By your standard Rig, where does Blood Lance give you permission to skip checking LoS or checking range? What about declaring a target?

It doesn't. And?

The reason why it doesn't give you explicit permission to skip those general rules is because the codex is giving you an alternate method of employing the psychic power. The codex is giving you an an exception to the general rules for employing the psychic power.

So the fact that it's a psychic shooting attack is irrelevant, save that it must happen in the shooting phase and you cannot fire another weapon?
I'm... not sure I buy that.

edit: It's a permissive rules set, which means you must have permission to do things. The BRB explains the requirements of a PSA, and I don't see anything in Blood Lance that gives you permission to ignore those things.

You do have explicit permission. The BRB tells you that exceptions to the general rules for employing a psychic power will be in the codexes. The Blood Lance rules entry specifically provides an exception to the general rules with the very wording of the rule.

You don't check LoS.
You don't check range.
You don't roll to hit.

You follow the method for employing Blood Lance per the rules entry which is per the BRB for exceptions to the general rules.

How is it being defined as a psychic shooting attack have any bearing on why it should have an exception to the general rules? Thunderclap is a psychic shooting attack that does not roll to hit either. And before you jump in saying because it is a template, that is wrong. Thunderclap only uses the small blast marker for purposes of defining the area of the shooting attack. It is not a blast weapon. The reason why the models under the template are hit is because the rule entry for Thunderclap tell you they are hit.

BR, explain where you are given permission to ignore the "All Psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit" ruling from the BRB FAQ?

I decided on my compromise post because I see merit on both sides of the argument here. On one side the FAQ says that all PSAs need to roll to hit (Exceptions will apply as liam just pointed out) and the other side says that because the power says all units with a model under the line take 1 hit as jbunny pointed out. Then we have those saying you roll to hit first and there are those that are arguing that, that is breaking the order of operations for shooting which PSAs are suppose to follow. So I decided to represent what seemed the most logical middle ground until this is FAQed

liam0404 wrote:I really don;t see why there is a debate here. The BRB FAQ explicitly states that anything that is called a "Psychic Shooting Attack" in its description, MUST roll to hit. Therefore powers such as:

Blood Lance
Mind War
JOTWW

All must roll to hit.

Things like the avenger don't roll to hit because of the weapon type that power is - its a template, which means you NEVER roll to hit. You are NEVER given permission to ignore this step with Blood Lance.

Actually it doesn't say "MUST" in big scary letters like you propose. In fact it doesn't say "must" in any type of letters. If it did you actually have a basis to your argument. The very fact that the BRB tells you that the exceptions to the general rules on employing psychic powers will be found in the codexes shuts your argument down from the beginning. Would a flow chart help?

BRB General Rules>>>>>>>BRB FAQ to General Rules>>>>>>Codex Exception to General Rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liam0404 wrote:BR, explain where you are given permission to ignore the "All Psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit" ruling from the BRB FAQ?

The BRB FAQ of;

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes

Is a FAQ to the GENERAL RULES for psychic shooting attacks/powers.

BRB, page 50;

The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes

.

Now, read the rule for Blood Lance;

It doesn't check LoS, pick a target, or check for range. All of which are GENERAL RULES. The rule itself tells you that any units the line pass through are hit. Again, the Blood Lance rule....in the codex....tells you that any units the line passes through are HIT. The rule is giving you specific instruction on how to employ it. It is giving you specific instruction on when and how units are HIT. How you employ Blood Lance, AS WRITTEN IN THE CODEX, is the exception to the general rules for employing a psychic power.

Now the question to you would be, why are you insisting on including a general rule to employ a psychic shooting attack when the BRB clearly tells me to follow the codex exception?

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.

liam0404 wrote:Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.

BRB, page 50;

"The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes."

Oh look, I can include your rule and my rule in the same post and not ignore any rules while your insistence on only putting up the BRB FAQ ignores mine.

Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.

You're really clutching at straws here.

liam0404 wrote:Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.

You're really clutching at straws here.

That is golden. Do you have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too?

Please tell me how a unit that is specifically said to suffer a hit when a line passes through it has not been hit. By all means I will be waiting for that semantical hoop jump.

Brother Ramses wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.

BRB, page 50;

"The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes."

Oh look, I can include your rule and my rule in the same post and not ignore any rules while your insistence on only putting up the BRB FAQ ignores mine.

Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?

Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.