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Brother Ramses wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.

You're really clutching at straws here.

That is golden. Do you have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too?

Please tell me how a unit that is specifically said to suffer a hit when a line passes through it has not been hit. By all means I will be waiting for that semantical hoop jump.

Every model under the line suffers a hit - if the power has been successfully used.

This means that you need to take a psychic test.
As its a PSA, this also means you roll to hit.

If you pass both the above steps, everything under the line is hit.

Oh, and less of the personal insults please - otherwise ill start insulting you for using an autopilot army like space wolves - and while we're at it, JOTWW also needs to roll to hit too.

rigeld2 wrote:Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?

Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.

You know I can show something that might be construed as an exception to 1) Pick a Target and 2) Check LoS

Under normal shooting rule you first pick a target then check LoS to that target, I am sure we can all agree to this.

Blood Lance: Blood Angels Codex page 63

"Extend a straight line 4d6" long from the Librarian's Base in any direction"

This sentence here tells us that we are not picking a target we are picking a direction, and without a target there is no LoS to check.

I however can't provide where it says it has an exception to rolling to hit, I can however provide wording that people will interpret to be an exception while others wont. As for checking range that is done when you extend the line.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

From page 3 of the BRB FAQ. Seems pretty clear to me. Ignoring this is nothing short of ignoring the rules.

BRB, page 50;

"The following GENERAL RULES explain how psychic powers are employed. EXCEPTIONS to these rules are covered in the codexes."

Oh look, I can include your rule and my rule in the same post and not ignore any rules while your insistence on only putting up the BRB FAQ ignores mine.

Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?

Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.

Rig, please read page 50, first paragraph after the bolded intro text and follow along;

BRB, Page 50, complete entry:

"These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from one individual to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find the complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the codex."

There is your permission, per the RAW. If the codex tells you to employ a psychic shooting attack different then the general rules, you follow the codex. Blood Lance tells you how to measure it out and how units are hit. That in itself is different then the general rules. That in itself is the exception. The codex is telling you how to employ Blood Lance that is different then the general rules, hence you follow the codex.


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liam0404 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Blood Lance explains how models under the line are affected, but to actually employ the power, you need to roll to hit as discussed in the BRB FAQ.

You're really clutching at straws here.

That is golden. Do you have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale too?

Please tell me how a unit that is specifically said to suffer a hit when a line passes through it has not been hit. By all means I will be waiting for that semantical hoop jump.

Every model under the line suffers a hit - if the power has been successfully used.

This means that you need to take a psychic test.
As its a PSA, this also means you roll to hit, UNLESS A CODEX EXCEPTION TO EMPLOY THE PSYCHIC POWER EXISTS.

If you pass both the above steps, everything under the line is hit.

Oh, and less of the personal insults please - otherwise ill start insulting you for using an autopilot army like space wolves - and while we're at it, JOTWW also needs to roll to hit too.

I emboldened the text you keep missing. If you want to have a rules debate, you need to include all of the rules, not just the ones convenient to your argument.

And JotWW never hits a target. Your failure to read the rules shows that you probably should not be in this forum. Read the rule for JotWW and post it up here and maybe you will see where JotWW never hits a target.

Is JOTWW a PSA? It is?

Wow! Silly me for thinking GW's FAQ was incorrect.


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Oh, and while ive just checked the codes:

Paragraph 2 of JOTWW starts with:

"As a Psychic Shooting attack".

Well gosh darnit. I dunno man, I think that GW's FAQ about GW's own game might not be correct here. I feel really bad for you, that your grasp of the rules isnt as good as the rest of us.

I'll stick to playing Warhammer 40k, while you can continue playing Rameses 40k. Then everyone is happy.

Brother Ramses wrote:Rig, please read page 50, first paragraph after the bolded intro text and follow along;

Please don't shorten my name. No offense taken, I'd just appreciate you not shortening it.

BRB, Page 50, complete entry:

"These powers vary from race to race and sometimes from one individual to another. The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the Codexes, where you will find the complete rules for individual powers. The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the codex."

There is your permission, per the RAW. If the codex tells you to employ a psychic shooting attack different then the general rules, you follow the codex. Blood Lance tells you how to measure it out and how units are hit. That in itself is different then the general rules. That in itself is the exception. The codex is telling you how to employ Blood Lance that is different then the general rules, hence you follow the codex.

The general rules describe a PSA requiring a to-hit roll. The general rules say that exceptions will be covered in the codex. There is no exception to requiring a to-hit roll in the codex. There's nothing that says "instead of rolling to hit" or "this power automatically hits" or anything like that. The closest to it is the description of laying the line down - but you're not permitted to place that line until you roll to hit.

I don't have my rule book - when shooting, when do you roll for night fighting distance?

And JotWW never hits a target. Your failure to read the rules shows that you probably should not be in this forum. Read the rule for JotWW and post it up here and maybe you will see where JotWW never hits a target.

... but it's a PSA. It still needs to roll to hit. In the case of JotWW it's irrelevant because the line is still placed if you miss. I'd have to reread Blood Lance but it might be the same way. And yes, I will admit I may be arguing a technicality. That's what YMDC is for, however.

Brother Ramses wrote:And JotWW never hits a target.

Neither does Blood lance.

Having read the text on Blood Lance as sent to me by Saiisil, it still seems to me to work EXACTLY like the Eldar Vibro Cannon. Both are shooting attacks, both place a line of a certain distance, and both hit all units under the line. Does anyone disagree with this?

Happyjew wrote:Having read the text on Blood Lance as sent to me by Saiisil, it still seems to me to work EXACTLY like the Eldar Vibro Cannon. Both are shooting attacks, both place a line of a certain distance, and both hit all units under the line. Does anyone disagree with this?

No I don't disagree, though I haven't read the rules on the Vibro Cannon yet but if it's wording is similar then can't argue using it as an existing example of use.

When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target). If any of the vibro cannons hit, draw single X" straight line in any direction. Any unit the line passes through suffers Y hits (some information removed as Dakka is not a replacement for a codex.). Except for saying you roll to hit, it sounds very similar to Blood Lance (also it can hit your own units and units locked in CC).

Can you show the exception to LOS, rolling to hit, or anything else?

Remember, permissive rule set, so unless you're told to ignore the restrictions, you can't.

Because you are extending a 4d6 inch long straight line from the model outward. It jumps over friendly models and models locked in combat. It does not give a set range to measure for you to attempt to shoot. Not sure about not having LOS, I'd say you at least have to have LOS to the closest target.

The main reason for them saying that psychic powers require a roll to hit would be for powers like Machine Spirit and Smite. If either of these automatically then you have some serious trouble. A lot of players would say I made my psychic check and now I hit you with this power. But, they still have to roll to hit. The key point in Blood Lance is the fact that the power itself says the units under the line are "hit". Saying something is hit, seems to me that it means they are in fact hit. Rolling to hit something, when your not even sure what your hitting doesn't make any sense to me.
Still waiting for anyone that has had this come up in a tournament respond. The same back and forth is getting us no where.

As for a permissive rule set, that is fine. If your playing against me, then I'm fine with it being used how it is written. I don't use the power myself, in most cases it did not do as much as you would think. This is not JOTWW in any way, unless your trying to insta-gib someone's IC- then, I can see how they would want you to roll to hit. The power already limits itself in requiring a psychic test, then a uncertain range. Often I would roll for distance and get something like 8 to 10 inches annd not hit anything. It still counts as firing and I don't kill anything with it. That variable range gives you a similiar effect to rolling to hit.

Sir Blayse wrote:It does not give a set range to measure for you to attempt to shoot. Not sure about not having LOS, I'd say you at least have to have LOS to the closest target.

It has no target, so no range is needed nor is LOS.

kirsanth wrote:

Sir Blayse wrote:It does not give a set range to measure for you to attempt to shoot. Not sure about not having LOS, I'd say you at least have to have LOS to the closest target.

It has no target, so no range is needed nor is LOS.

It has no target, so there is no need to roll to hit, as it deals hits to units it crosses

Funny, the Vibro Cannon has no target, and deals hits to units it crosses, and guess what, you still have to roll 'To Hit'

Nevermind. I'm done. This argument is going like the JotWW one - it'll never be resolved without an FAQ. Have fun never rolling to hit because you disagree with the rules.

"Any unit in lance's path suffers a hit" it can not be written clearer , you do not roll to hit since any unit in lance's path suffers a hit.( exactly what it says)

The only rolling is the 4D6 roll for distance .

I guess the roll to hit could be explained by the Librarian needing to accurately aim the power as he intends to... and if he passes then anything under the line (after rolling 4D6 range), gets hit regardless. I wouldn't think you need to roll to hit each unit/vehicle under the line, once the initial roll has been successfullly made (per the rule entry for Blood Lance)?

That being said, reading the entry in the codex makes me wonder if it was intended as an automatic hit without a roll needed. I think the rule is poorly written which leads to this kind of debate. I've been using the power without rolling to hit, but I can see now how a roll to hit could be justified by the rules. If my opponent decided to make an issue of it, I can't say I would blame them or really fight them on it.

The entry states "everything under the line is hit", which seems pretty clear, but it really isn't. It can (obviously) be taken in different ways.

You can look at it and say no roll to hit is needed because the Librarian's will determines the path of the lance. He can place it wherever he wants to without fail, and if you're in the way, you're taking a hit.

Or, you can say once the Librarian properly aims the power (determined via a roll to hit), everything under the line suffers a hit without needing to re-roll each time. The power itself, if aimed properly, hits you.

Clear as mud, right? Well... as most psychic shooting attacks require a roll to hit, I would say the precedent is that just because a Psyker wills something to go somewhere, it doesn't mean it always does. That would suggest a Blood Angel Librarian could intend to aim his power 4D6 inches in one direction, but be slightly off the mark (as determined by a roll to hit).

I really don't know for sure how this rule was intended. I do know it's giving me a headache. And I know that I wll be rolling to hit from now on. Sigh.

Happyjew wrote:Having read the text on Blood Lance as sent to me by Saiisil, it still seems to me to work EXACTLY like the Eldar Vibro Cannon. Both are shooting attacks, both place a line of a certain distance, and both hit all units under the line. Does anyone disagree with this?

Except vibro-cannons are not psychic shooting attacks which have the rule on page 50 of the BRB that states exceptions to the general rules will be in the codex. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, there goes the attempted vibro-cannon argument down the drain again.

....and there still isnt an exception listed in the codex.

There goes your argument again. Painful this, isnt it.

As a Blood Angel player I should be inclined to argue against nos and happyjew but I am more inclined to agree with them especially after reading the wording of the Vibro Cannon.

nosferatu1001 wrote:....and there still isnt an exception listed in the codex.

There goes your argument again. Painful this, isnt it.

Well except that it already causes hits ...

Exactly the same as the vibrocannon you mean? It doesnt have an exemption OR exception to "rolling to hit", so it does.

nosferatu1001 wrote:....and there still isnt an exception listed in the codex.

There goes your argument again. Painful this, isnt it.

Which is your laughable response yet again? Models in the path of the line suffer a hit is a pretty huge hurdle for you to keep jumping over each time you want to say that the codex does not have an exception to employ the psychic power. Of course you are going to keep insisting that,

"Instead of rolling to hit...."
"Automatically hit..."

Are the absolute only exceptions that can be listed despite not only the Blood Lance showing you an exception that does not follow that wording as well as wording for several other codex exceptions for other general rules for psychic shooting attacks that are exceptions.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:Exactly the same as the vibrocannon you mean? It doesnt have an exemption OR exception to "rolling to hit", so it does.

Just stop Nos.

You keep comparing vibro-cannons to psychic shooting attacks when the only similarity is that you are told to roll to hit. EXCEPT, the vibro-cannon has absolutely no rules telling you not to follow the general rules whereas psychic shooting attacks have specific rules detailing to do just that.

Vibro-cannons tell you to roll to hit. They have no rules support to not roll to hit in any circumstance.

Psychic shooting attacks tell you to roll to hit. They DO have rules support that tell you to employ the power differently then the general rules if the codex tells you to.

It is not a valid comparison.

Here are all the differences between Blood Lance (BL) and Vibro Cannon (VC):
Type of attack, one is a psychic atack (BL) the other uses a gun (VC).
Length of the line: one is a set distance (VC), the other is variable (BL)
Strength and AP of the shot
Number of hits on the units the shot passes through: BL is a set number of hits, VC is variable.
Affects on CC: VC hits units locked in combat, BL bounces over them.
Do you see why we compare BL and VC?
It's worked out EXACTLY like the Vibro Cannon.

Happyjew wrote:Here are all the differences between Blood Lance (BL) and Vibro Cannon (VC):
Type of attack, one is a psychic atack (BL) the other uses a gun (VC).
Length of the line: one is a set distance (VC), the other is variable (BL)
Strength and AP of the shot
Number of hits on the units the shot passes through: BL is a set number of hits, VC is variable.
Affects on CC: VC hits units locked in combat, BL bounces over them.
Do you see why we compare BL and VC?
It's worked out EXACTLY like the Vibro Cannon.

Well they're two entirely different weapons as the Vibro Cannon hits units multiple times, opposed to just 1. That's all the difference I need, they're not the same even if they are a bit similar.

Happyjew wrote:Here are all the differences between Blood Lance (BL) and Vibro Cannon (VC):
Type of attack, one is a psychic atack (BL) the other uses a gun (VC).
Length of the line: one is a set distance (VC), the other is variable (BL)
Strength and AP of the shot
Number of hits on the units the shot passes through: BL is a set number of hits, VC is variable.
Affects on CC: VC hits units locked in combat, BL bounces over them.
Do you see why we compare BL and VC?
It's worked out EXACTLY like the Vibro Cannon.

HJ, read the rules for psychic attacks. You are missing a key difference in that psychic shooting attacks are given permission to exceptions that the vibro-cannon is not. At no time are you told that the vibro-cannon can not follow the general rules for shooting. You are told that psychic shooting attacks can ignore the general rules for shooting if the codex tells you to do something different.

That is why the comparison is flawed.

So where does it say for Blood Lance you don't roll To'Hit'? It says all the units under the line are hit (as opposed to just the first unit) but it does not say you DON'T roll 'To Hit'

We can do without the digs at each other and the hyperbole please.
Take a breath, count to 10.. whatever.



Ta.

Happyjew wrote:So where does it say for Blood Lance you don't roll To'Hit'? It says all the units under the line are hit (as opposed to just the first unit) but it does not say you DON'T roll 'To Hit'

Again READ the rule. The requirement set by the BRB is not, "do not roll to hit" or "instead of rolling to hit". The BRB tells you that exceptions to the general rules on how to EMPLOY the psychic shooting attack will be in the codexes. That means that the codex only has to give you a different method of EMPLOYING the psychic shooting attack for it to take precedence over the general rules for EMPLOYING a psychic shooting attack. To bring up my example again,

If the codex tells you to jump around in a circle yelling bananas and all enemy units on the table are hit by a str 10 ap1 "lance", then you do exactly that. It is a different method of employing that psychic shooting attack from the general rules.

Look to other examples of psychic shooting attacks that do not follow the general rules. The standard is not,

"Do not check range..."
"Instead of checking range..."
"Do not check LoS...."
"Instead of checking LoS..."
"Do not roll to wound...."
"Instead of rolling to wound..."

The standard is not specifically EXCLUDING general rules but instead giving alternate methods of employing the psychic shooting attack. Look at Thunderclap for an example. You are told to place the small blast marker so it is touching the base of the rune priest and everything under the marker is hit. You are not specifically excluded from checking range, LoS, declaring a target, or rolling to hit. Instead you are given an alternate to employing the psychic shooting attack that you follow instead of following the general rules.

That is the standard for exceptions to the general rules on employing psychic shooting attacks.

Happyjew wrote:So where does it say for Blood Lance you don't roll To'Hit'? It says all the units under the line are hit (as opposed to just the first unit) but it does not say you DON'T roll 'To Hit'

Strength D wounds everything it hits right? Do you think you roll to wound?

If it hits, you don't roll to hit. There is no need as it has already done so.

BR - stop making up what my argument is. I used the word "example" a number of times in my argument, you just apparently enjoy ignoring the inconvenient parts.

There is zero point arguing with you on this, as you dont listen.

jd - Strength D "automatically wounds". Its not exactly an argument FOR your side at all, so i'd suggest ignoring it.