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Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.

The problem with that argument is either all the powers that have rules pertaining to autohit, etc. are redundant, or your argument is false. I know GW has a penchant for redundancy, but come on...
PSAs have specific rules on the employment.
The power states that it is a PSA, and therefore has pulled in all those specific rules.
The power does not have exceptions for the specific rules and other powers on the same page do.

The power does not have exemptions on it's employment.


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chewielight wrote:I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.

I've lined out my argument, you just haven't read it (evidently).

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

Nosferatu, not all PSA's REQUIRE a target. Blood Lance does have such a rule and it is unique in this manner. There is no ommitting of the rule at all. The power tells you how it works. You are trying to require additional rules to make your point. Following the shooting steps and wording of the power is the only method for resolving this power. Making someone roll to hit is breaking the rules for C:BA and BRB.

chewielight wrote:Nosferatu, not all PSA's REQUIRE a target. Blood Lance does have such a rule and it is unique in this manner. There is no ommitting of the rule at all. The power tells you how it works. You are trying to require additional rules to make your point. Following the shooting steps and wording of the power is the only method for resolving this power. Making someone roll to hit is breaking the rules for C:BA and BRB.

The BRB states that PSAs must follow shooting rules. Shooting requires a target. Cite the rule exempting BL from requiring a target - we know it must because it is a PSA as BL states, so you have to find something that says it doesn't.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.

The problem with that argument is either all the powers that have rules pertaining to autohit, etc. are redundant, or your argument is false. I know GW has a penchant for redundancy, but come on...
PSAs have specific rules on the employment.
The power states that it is a PSA, and therefore has pulled in all those specific rules.
The power does not have exceptions for the specific rules and other powers on the same page do.

The power does not have exemptions on it's employment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chewielight wrote:I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.

I've lined out my argument, you just haven't read it (evidently).

Once again PSA's are shooting attacks and as such follow ALL shooting rules unless told differently. Blood Lance tells you how it works in realation with a shooting attack. I already listed how these rules effect the power Blood Lance. I have already listed (in detail) how the power reacts with shooting attacks. Yet the arguement continues to be ignored.

I have read your arguement and picked it apart based on how shooting attacks work. Shooting attacks ALL must follow shooting rules or they arent valid. PSA's or normal shooting attacks follow these rules. Requireing a roll to hit actually breaks the rules and not in the power discription for PSA's or BL.


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rigeld2 wrote:

chewielight wrote:Nosferatu, not all PSA's REQUIRE a target. Blood Lance does have such a rule and it is unique in this manner. There is no ommitting of the rule at all. The power tells you how it works. You are trying to require additional rules to make your point. Following the shooting steps and wording of the power is the only method for resolving this power. Making someone roll to hit is breaking the rules for C:BA and BRB.

The BRB states that PSAs must follow shooting rules. Shooting requires a target. Cite the rule exempting BL from requiring a target - we know it must because it is a PSA as BL states, so you have to find something that says it doesn't.

Shooting only requires a target unless there is an exemption. Blood Lance is one of the only powers (some exceptions) that state that you are pointing in a direction and not at a unit. I guess that is where this boils down to, is a direction a target or is it another thing all together. If the power made you roll a scatter to see if you hit I would be on board and it doesnt

chewielight wrote:I have read your arguement and picked it apart based on how shooting attacks work. Shooting attacks ALL must follow shooting rules or they arent valid. PSA's or normal shooting attacks follow these rules. Requireing a roll to hit actually breaks the rules and not in the power discription for PSA's or BL.

You have not once, ever, cited a rule that allows you to ignore LOS, targeting, Rolling to hit, or checking range. You haven't picked anything apart because of a lack of those rule citations.

Blood Lance states that it is a PSA - yes or no?

PSAs must have a target, check LOS, check range, and roll to hit - yes or no?

Blood Lance has no rule statements that exempt it from these requirements - yes or no?

You may be asserting that some of the rules in Blood Lance *imply* exemptions, but that is a far cry from there being exemptions.


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chewielight wrote:Shooting only requires a target unless there is an exemption. Blood Lance is one of the only powers (some exceptions) that state that you are pointing in a direction and not at a unit. I guess that is where this boils down to, is a direction a target or is it another thing all together. If the power made you roll a scatter to see if you hit I would be on board and it doesnt

Either you pick a target, or you pick a degree out of 360 (I'm being nice and not making you pick one of 4 "directions").

rigeld2 wrote:

chewielight wrote:I have read your arguement and picked it apart based on how shooting attacks work. Shooting attacks ALL must follow shooting rules or they arent valid. PSA's or normal shooting attacks follow these rules. Requireing a roll to hit actually breaks the rules and not in the power discription for PSA's or BL.

You have not once, ever, cited a rule that allows you to ignore LOS, targeting, Rolling to hit, or checking range. You haven't picked anything apart because of a lack of those rule citations.

Blood Lance states that it is a PSA - yes or no?

PSAs must have a target, check LOS, check range, and roll to hit - yes or no?

Blood Lance has no rule statements that exempt it from these requirements - yes or no?

You may be asserting that some of the rules in Blood Lance *imply* exemptions, but that is a far cry from there being exemptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chewielight wrote:Shooting only requires a target unless there is an exemption. Blood Lance is one of the only powers (some exceptions) that state that you are pointing in a direction and not at a unit. I guess that is where this boils down to, is a direction a target or is it another thing all together. If the power made you roll a scatter to see if you hit I would be on board and it doesnt

Either you pick a target, or you pick a degree out of 360 (I'm being nice and not making you pick one of 4 "directions").

I have cited the rule and how they affect PSA's. BL is a PSA yes. Yes on the second but BL has an exception (which I stated) It does.

Looks like we will keep kicking a dead horse.

You've cited a rule that might imply an exemption. It does not state an exemption. Implications are not rules until an FAQ clarifies the implication.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

Like I've said before and I'll say again. It seems as clean cut as using Vortex of Doom. You wouldnt roll to hit than roll the scatter, and Blood Lance tells you explicitly how to use it and the fact it hits units that the line go's over. It also does not have a target but a Direction.

If Vortex uses the blast marker, then you use blast rules, which state "Instead of rolling to hit..."

btw - the reason I'm not commenting on powers in other codexes is because my backpack with all my codexes (and big BRB) was stolen a few weeks ago... and I haven't spent the few hundred dollars to replace it yet. I still have my Tyranid dex and little rb, so I can still play \o/

Chewie - you are yet to provide a rule that gives an exemption to the standard shooting rules. Until you do so you have not provided an argument

rigeld2 wrote:btw - the reason I'm not commenting on powers in other codexes is because my backpack with all my codexes (and big BRB) was stolen a few weeks ago... and I haven't spent the few hundred dollars to replace it yet. I still have my Tyranid dex and little rb, so I can still play \o/

That sucks man and I feel your pain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - you are yet to provide a rule that gives an exemption to the standard shooting rules. Until you do so you have not provided an argument

Nos funny you stated it like that. My point the entire time was that it follows the standard shooting rules in so much as how the power works.
I am going to list it again because its fun. Standard shooting rules as follows:
1. Check LOS and pick a target (this has been debated) Brb states you need choose a unit but C:BA states choose a direction. I dont disagree with LOS
2. Check range (this is not the question either because range is a line 4d6)
3. Roll to hit (this the contended part) Your argument is a roll is needed but the power stays they suffer a hit if the line touches a unit. This is the item that needs to be an FAQ. This is the unique stance that no other power in the codex has.

Going by RAW in C:BA it's pretty cut and dry except its not lol. Funny thing is I hate this power just because of this vague rule set.

Normally when you shoot you hit just the first unit (assuming you are not shooting a unit behind another unit). Blood Lance hits all units that the line crosses. However, you still need to roll to hit to see if the you hit the first unit.

Bloodlance does not have a target, but does need to roll to hit.

The lack of a target is not really up for debate - see the FAQ regarding assaulting after its use. If you "target" Khârn and end up hitting a unit behind him, you have to assault the unit behind him and cannot assault Khârn.

The need for a to-hit shouldn't be - the page it is on has explicit examples of the verbage needed to avoid the roll - but well. . .here we are.

Happyjew that doesnt follow the shooting rules. By that line of reasoning you would have to roll to hit each unit but the power contradicts this. You cant roll to hit when the power states that it hits already.

All PSA's follow the following (unless noted otherwise)
1. Make a psychic test.
2. Check LOS and pick a target.
3. Check Range
4. Roll to hit.
5. Roll to wound
6. Take saves.
7. Remove casualties.
Now lets break this down.
1. AFAIK only Eldar Warlocks (and Shadowseer upgrade for Harlequins) do not require psychic tests to use their powers. this is specifically stated in the Eldar codex.
2. LOS can be argued either way for Blood Lance. However that is not the point of this debate. Same as picking a target.
3. If the nearest enemy unit is more than 24" away (Blood Lance max range) then the attack is going to hit nothing, and has been wasted. If the nearest enemy unit is within 24" then there is a possibility of being hit.
4. All powers and weapons that do not require a to hit roll specifically state one of two things:
a) This power (weapon) automatically hits...
b) Instead of rolling to hit...
It should be noted that blast and templates follow "b".
5. Roll 1 to wound against majority Toughness (or highest if there is no majority).
6. Take any cover or Invulnerable saves the units might have.
7. Remove any models that have lost their last wounds.

Note that the codex says that the units under the line suffer a single Str 8 AP1 hit. This means the unit has suffered a hit by the Blood Lance, rather than having to roll to hit.
The codex doesn't say about line of sight, but I assume that the attack stops, rather than going through a wall or something. If you want to resolve this you could see if the building is destroyed. You can attack buildings!
Either way some of you seem to be straying off topic with arguments. We are here to try and help, not to spam the thread!

BlapBlapBlap wrote: You can attack buildings!

Not if they are empty, oddly enough.

Just checked the GW BA FAQ. It says absolutely nought about Blood Lance, and I stand by the Codex in that case.


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kirsanth wrote:

BlapBlapBlap wrote: You can attack buildings!

Not if they are empty, oddly enough.

Or just roll for AP as if they were occupied. Remember, the one most important rule is no rules are that important.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Remember, the one most important rule is no rules are that important.

When discussing rules, that is utterly irrelevant.

At best.

Withdrawn from thread

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It kind of does. Rather than wrecking a perfectly good game by following the rules to a T, adapt the situation so both players are happy.
I think this applies here in particular. Use common sense to resolve this. The wording fails to be clear about line of sight, so make something up!

You might want to read the Tenents of YMDC. Just saying.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It kind of does. Rather than wrecking a perfectly good game by following the rules to a T, adapt the situation so both players are happy.
I think this applies here in particular. Use common sense to resolve this. The wording fails to be clear about line of sight, so make something up!

Ok let me explain why it has no place here. The most important rule is that you don't spoil a game over a silly rule roll a D6 and move on ... However once the game is finished you should discuse how it should be played next time ... which is what we're doing right now. As such the most important rule is banded from YMDC as we have passed that point.

rigeld2 wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Chewie - he HAS shown his argument

ALL PSAs require you to pick a target, check LOS, range etc. For you to NOT be required to pick a target (etc), you must have a RULE telling you NOT to pick a target (etc)

Blood Lance has no such rule, so you still must carry out those steps. Simply omitting the requirement does not mean you are exempt, as that isnt how the rules work - bby beinga shooting attack you are required to perform the shooting steps UNLESS you are told you dont need to.

No you do not. The codex only has to give you a different method of employing the psychic power then the general rules and it is an exception. That is how the BRB has worded the exceptions to employing a psychic shooting attack, not a general rules exclusion checklist.

The problem with that argument is either all the powers that have rules pertaining to autohit, etc. are redundant, or your argument is false. I know GW has a penchant for redundancy, but come on...
PSAs have specific rules on the employment.
The power states that it is a PSA, and therefore has pulled in all those specific rules.
The power does not have exceptions for the specific rules and other powers on the same page do.

The power does not have exemptions on it's employment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chewielight wrote:I welcome any debate and if you can clearly outline your argument as I have then I will listen.

I've lined out my argument, you just haven't read it (evidently).

Automatically hits is not an exception. That is where you you are trying to draw a comparison to draw a conclusion from. Automatically hits still means a dice roll takes place, but no matter the result, you still hit.

I find it interesting that you will only accept an exclusion from rolling to hit, yet do not accept specific direction of being hit. Thunderclap tells you all models touched by the template are hit. Blood Lance tells you that models the line passes through are hit. These are by definition, exceptions to employing the psychic power that do not follow the general rules yet you insist on checklist exception which is not what the BRB tells you to do.

rigeld2 wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Rolling to Hit applies to powers like "Smite" that have a Str, AP, and Type profile for purposes of shooting or powers that state they are a psychic shooting attack.

Fixed that for you with actual rules.

Do you have to roll to hit with Psychic shooting attacks?

Yes.

Smite has to hit and has to wound. You don't roll to hit with smite, then roll again to hit with all four attacks. You roll to hit with each of the four attacks.

Blood Lance draws a 24 inch line and then rolls 4D6. Anything under the line takes an automatic hit. Never once is it implied at all that you have to roll to hit with Blood Lance then roll again with 4D6. If it was intended that way it would be included in it's unique shooting profile, but it's not.

If you want to say "But Beef, it's implied as a psychic shooting attack that it has to roll to hit!" I will say this, the reason it's profiled as a psychic shooting attack is for the purposes of when it can be used. If it wasn't labeled as a psychic shooting attack, it would be used in shooting and assault. This was not the intended design, so it was labeled psychic shooting with a unique profile for how it shoots.

A psychic power like Blood Lance wouldn't even make sense if it required you to roll to hit, since it can and often does hit multiple units.


Rule Nerds have turned Psychic Shooting into a second Psychic Hood for powers that draw lines for hits. Never intended that way. People just failed at reading and went overboard.

To those people I have a question, what if your blood lance hits 3 targets? Do you have to roll to hit all three? What if your blood lance hits something out of true line of sight behind a tank? Can you roll to hit? Maybe you guys could flub some more answers.

Brother Ramses wrote:These are by definition, exceptions to employing the psychic power that do not follow the general rules yet you insist on checklist exception which is not what the BRB tells you to do.

I do not read them as exceptions, I read them as the result of the successful use of the power.

rigeld2 wrote:You've cited a rule that might imply an exemption. It does not state an exemption. Implications are not rules until an FAQ clarifies the implication.

And again this is not what the rules tell you. The BRB tells you, that exceptions to the general rules on EMPLOYING a psychic shooting attack will be the codex. It does not tell you that exceptions to the general rules will be in the codex. It does not tell you that exceptions to the general rule will be listed. It tells you exceptions to the general rules on EMPLOYING a psychic shooting attack will be in the codexes. If the codex tells you to do something different then the general, that is the exception. It doesn't matter if it is draw a line 24" or kick your opponent in the balls. Those are exceptions to employing the psychic shooting attack that take precedence to using the general rules for employing.

I ask you again, look at how GW has written the psychic shooting attacks of Living Lightning, Fury of the Wolf Spirits, Thunderclap, and Jaws of the World Wolf. I did a breakdown once already, but will do it again;

Living Lightning - No exceptions on employing this power. You follow the general rules for employment.

Fury of the Wolf Spirits - You are given permission to fire more then one ranged profile. The rest of the rule has no exceptions to employing the power, you follow the general rules.

Thunderclap - You are specifically told how to employ the psychic power that does not follow the general rules. Per the BRB, you follow the codex.

Jaws of the World Wolf - You are told specifically how to employ the psychic power that does not follow the general rules. Per the BRB, you follow the codex.

The very writing of the psychic shooting attacks that do and do not follow the general rules for psychic shooting attacks are written in this style. In the absence of a different method of employing the psychic power, you follow the general rules. Because of the first paragraph of page 50, this is how exceptions to employing psychic shooting attacks have been written into the codexes.

Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.

kirsanth wrote:Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.

Because it adds nothing as it is a badly written FAQ. GW breaks their game with that one FAQ because if I take that FAQ as written, I can have board wide affect of Murderous Hurricane because I auto-miss when I am not in range of my targeted unit.

Brother Ramses wrote:

kirsanth wrote:Interestingly you left out the PSA from Space Wolves that has an effect even if the to-hit roll fails.

Because it adds nothing as it is a badly written FAQ. GW breaks their game with that one FAQ because if I take that FAQ as written, I can have board wide affect of Murderous Hurricane because I auto-miss when I am not in range of my targeted unit.

So you get to ignore rules/FAQs when you feel like it? That's a cool story bro.