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No I just think Ward pushed it a little to far defeating the Daemon Primarch ok, but destroying half the Warp ........ umm a little much

DK wrote:I happened, get over it.

I know right?

How dare people discuss their opinion on 40k in a 40k-based board!?

The nerve of such people!

Perhaps Kaldor Draigo is just kryptonite to daemons

b1soul wrote:Perhaps Kaldor Draigo is just kryptonite to daemons

Technically, he is.

Draigo wrote:

Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........

Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..

No he hasn't, what are you talking about?
Thraka has never been defeated in single combat by any IoM hero, or he'd be dead.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........

Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..

No he hasn't, what are you talking about?
Thraka has never been defeated in single combat by any IoM hero, or he'd be dead.

This.

The closest thing Ghazghkull has ever come to being defeated is fighting Commissar Yarrick, and that wasn't so much Yarrick beating him as Yarrick managing to survive for long enough that Ghazghkull decided it would be more fun to let him live (so they could fight again later) than it would be to rip him to bits.

Nobody else who's ever fought Ghazghkull hand-to-hand has won, not since he led the tiny beginnings of his Waaagh off Urk way back when. There's actually only one other noted hand-to-hand engagement I can recall; he fought Belial (the future Grand Master of the Deathwing) on Piscina IV, broke his spine and left him for dead. Belial survived, though; I guess once he was paralyzed Ghazghkull got bored and wandered off. Orks are like cats, you know, toys that can't scream and run away just don't hold their interest.

Also; people keep saying 'Ghazghkull killed a Titan'. Where'd that come from? Ghazghkull's ARMY destroyed at least one Titan on Piscina IV, but I've never seen any fluff saying that Ghazghkull PERSONALLY killed a Titan. Source, please?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Eldrad40k wrote:As much as I like the Draigo character in the dex, his fluff is over the top. Considering Magnus took down a titan, Horus defeated a primarch and almost took out the big E. I don't see Draigo taking out a Daemon/ Primarch and destroying a city and Daemon forrest and staying alive in the warp.........

Thraka killed a titan and hes gotten whooped by many of the IoM heroes grandmaster or otherwise..

No he hasn't, what are you talking about?
Thraka has never been defeated in single combat by any IoM hero, or he'd be dead.

This.

The closest thing Ghazghkull has ever come to being defeated is fighting Commissar Yarrick, and that wasn't so much Yarrick beating him as Yarrick managing to survive for long enough that Ghazghkull decided it would be more fun to let him live (so they could fight again later) than it would be to rip him to bits.

Nobody else who's ever fought Ghazghkull hand-to-hand has won, not since he led the tiny beginnings of his Waaagh off Urk way back when. There's actually only one other noted hand-to-hand engagement I can recall; he fought Belial (the future Grand Master of the Deathwing) on Piscina IV, broke his spine and left him for dead. Belial survived, though; I guess once he was paralyzed Ghazghkull got bored and wandered off. Orks are like cats, you know, toys that can't scream and run away just don't hold their interest.

Also; people keep saying 'Ghazghkull killed a Titan'. Where'd that come from? Ghazghkull's ARMY destroyed at least one Titan on Piscina IV, but I've never seen any fluff saying that Ghazghkull PERSONALLY killed a Titan. Source, please?

There is no such source, it's an assumption derived from a piece of fluff detailing some graffiti found on the wreckage of a Warlord Titan.
Also, yeah, every Imperial hero who has fought Ghazghull one-on-one has lost. Yarrick was headbutted to the floor and left for dead due to the other injuries he took, and Belial got his back broke.

Actually, didn't Belial not so much have his back broken as he was nearly ripped in half?

And I assume that someone confused Ghaz with Wazdakka, who has destroyed a Titan solo, and that is pretty stupid.

Draigo is basically a primarch but a sgm

People sure are using a whole lot of words to say 'Ward is a gak writer.'

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:
If a writer needs something to Worf, there's always the Avatar, a Greater Daemon, or a Carnifex to beat up. Primarchs are like the good china, and should only be brought out for very special occasions.

Angron gets killed every thousand years, like clockwork. Oddly enough, by people like Draigo.

Just to point out, those guys 'like Draigo' were actually one hundred Grey Knight Terminators of which barely a dozen survived. Just saying. Try naming some other times he was beaten.

Yeah, people need to stop lying when they discuss Angron.

Angron was beaten by something like thirty Grey Knight Terminators combining their power, making the result greater than the sum of its parts, and blasting Angron, trying to weaken his grip on reality. Notably, unexpectedly, Angron was still holding on, just barely. Only then did a Grey Knight behead a stunned Angron.

The thing about psykers and the warp and a universe where you have gods and acts of faith and generally other hard to measure 'magical' deus ex machina is that it's hard to say when and when it doesn't apply. Was it Draigo alone (by his own skill) who beat Mortarion or did he have supernatural aid (and I'm not just talking the Emperor - it could have been a Saint, a Primarch, or anything.) Were there unusual or random/freak warp conditions involved (Daemons aren't uniformly powerful, especially in realspace - if their connection to the warp is tenuous they can be greatly weakened even in a powerful host.) Hell for all we know Draigo died in the action (in truth) and the only thing that exists is his warp spirit (an Imperial Daemon.)

It's hard ot say when all you got to go on is interpretation, and it has to be borne in mind that there is just alot we don't know about the incident. Taking every little bit of spoken word as 100% absolute gospel and ignoring everything else is risky (one reason I so dislike codexes as primary evidence - so much of it tends to be slanted favorably towards the group the Codex is based upon, and it tends to over-generalize like hell

The problem is that, as people have stated before, the defeat of a Primarch deserves AT LEAST a page or detail to flesh it out. One doesn't just blithely throw out a Primarch as a meter stick to measure badassness against. That is why nearly everyone hates Draigo fluff for that handful of sentences. It could have been made believable, it COULD have worked. It could have been compelling. Instead we get a tiny shard of fluff that makes us all tear our eye balls out trying to rationalize.

Arturius wrote:People sure are using a whole lot of words to say 'Ward is a gak writer.'

Well, there's no shortage of posts to show that it still doesn't come across somehow.

BrainDeleted wrote:Just to point out, those guys 'like Draigo' were actually one hundred Grey Knight Terminators of which barely a dozen survived.

Yes, and they were also fighting Angron's Bloodthirster bodyguard (which number higher than Mortarions if I recall correctly) as well as all the other Daemons around (which Draigo almost certainly wasn't. I wonder what kept them off. It's pretty much down to either his Psychic power or other Grey Knights fighting). Afterall, we're talking about the Supreme Grandmaster and all the Grandmasters being present here. That's going to be a very large proportion of the Grey Knights fighting on this battlefield, and they were almost certainly winning (or at least in little overall danger) before Draigo took down Mortarion.

The Grey Knights fighting Angron were also all lower ranking than Draigo, and conceivably much less powerful. Draigo is clearly exceptionally powerful, and considering he's a Psyker, it makes a fair amount of sense that he could be several steps above the rest (not so much the stuff in the Warp to be fair).

You know all grey knights are psychic right?

So are all orks, all eldar, all daemons

It's a matter of degree

Grey knights are POWERFUL psykers, when working as a group. Some are powerful individually...

Daemon primarchs... way beyond just powerful. That hunk of fluff was Ward at his 'best'

BrainDeleted wrote:The problem is that, as people have stated before, the defeat of a Primarch deserves AT LEAST a page or detail to flesh it out. One doesn't just blithely throw out a Primarch as a meter stick to measure badassness against. That is why nearly everyone hates Draigo fluff for that handful of sentences. It could have been made believable, it COULD have worked. It could have been compelling. Instead we get a tiny shard of fluff that makes us all tear our eye balls out trying to rationalize.

No, this is one of those instances where less is more. Fleshing it out would have been a mistake, IMO.

BrainDeleted wrote:The problem is that, as people have stated before, the defeat of a Primarch deserves AT LEAST a page or detail to flesh it out.

Be careful what you wish for. If Ward had written it, it would have ended with Mortarion pleading for his life.

DRAIGO: Who's your daddy! WHO'S YOU'RE DADDY!! SAY IT!!!!!

MORTARION: THE EMPEROR!!!!!!

DRAIGO: Alright. I think you've learned your lesson. You may go now.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You know all grey knights are psychic right?

Yes, yes I do.

However, they are not of a uniform power. Draigo could be an Alpha Psyker for all we know.

Ascalam wrote:Daemon primarchs... way beyond just powerful.

But as with all Daemons, hugely limited in certain terms. I'm not actually sure if it's ever said that the Primarchs increased in power when they ascended, but even if they did, they still took on some key weaknesses. Weaknesses that the Grey Knights are specifically given the knowledge and training to exploit.

Kaldor wrote:No, this is one of those instances where less is more. Fleshing it out would have been a mistake, IMO.

I guess if you hate quality.

An Alpha Plus Psyker? I wouldn't consider one of those equal to 30+ Grey Knight Terminators combining their powers, to be honest.

I just finished eating lunch to this thread, and I have to say it's pretty amusing to see people trying to rationalize or defend such horridly lame fluff.

Draigo and his former master, while very powerful, should simply not have been enough to stand against a Demon-Primarch alone.

That said, we aren't given any details at all regarding what went down, unless I'm missing something(I'm reading p38 of the codex), and that's the more important failing in this fluff -- it exists in the form of like 5 lines of text where you would expect it to detail how it took an elite cadre of the chapter's best warriors in terminator armor *alongside* Draigo and his master to stop Mortarion(where Draigo comes out as the sole survivor, since apparently he's just that badass).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Just to point out, those guys 'like Draigo' were actually one hundred Grey Knight Terminators of which barely a dozen survived.

Yes, and they were also fighting Angron's Bloodthirster bodyguard (which number higher than Mortarions if I recall correctly) as well as all the other Daemons around (which Draigo almost certainly wasn't. I wonder what kept them off. It's pretty much down to either his Psychic power or other Grey Knights fighting). Afterall, we're talking about the Supreme Grandmaster and all the Grandmasters being present here. That's going to be a very large proportion of the Grey Knights fighting on this battlefield, and they were almost certainly winning (or at least in little overall danger) before Draigo took down Mortarion.

The Grey Knights fighting Angron were also all lower ranking than Draigo, and conceivably much less powerful. Draigo is clearly exceptionally powerful, and considering he's a Psyker, it makes a fair amount of sense that he could be several steps above the rest (not so much the stuff in the Warp to be fair).

Angron's bodyguard numbered twelve. I don't recall a number being given for Mortarion's. If they weren't in a lot of danger, it doesn't make sense that the previous Grand Master would put himself in the position to get killed.

Rank isn't achieved with power. If it was then the previous Grand Master would have been stronger than Draigo.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Draigo and his former master, while very powerful, should simply not have been enough to stand against a Demon-Primarch alone.

Well, Gerantan wasn't able to stand alone against Mortarion, and we don't know if Mortarion fought other Grey Knights beforehand.

Void__Dragon wrote:An Alpha Plus Psyker? I wouldn't consider one of those equal to 30+ Grey Knight Terminators combining their powers, to be honest.

Angron was always a bit more fighty though, and Khorne has a tendency to bless his servants with resistance to Psychic powers.

My question is what was Mortarion doing there in the first place? Wasn't Typhus supposed to have gotten pissed off at him because he just sat on his Daemon-world all day?

Durza wrote:
Angron's bodyguard numbered twelve. I don't recall a number being given for Mortarion's. If they weren't in a lot of danger, it doesn't make sense that the previous Grand Master would put himself in the position to get killed.

I've heard that he has two, but thinking about it I'm not sure where I got that from. Ah, according to Lexicanum it's from Flight of the Eisenstein, which is Heresy Era and as such it may have changed since.

I meant that the Grey Knights victory as a whole wasn't really in danger. I mean, the Grandmasters had enough time to nominate Draigo and then recognise him as their new Supreme Grandmaster. They're unlikely to have been fighting desperately.

Rank isn't achieved with power. If it was then the previous Grand Master would have been stronger than Draigo.

Fair point. They'd presumably have more experience and such, for what that's worth. Draigo's still clearly very special though.

Any special charecter can lose to another special charecter, if they are unlucky or if the lore is written that way. The 40k universe has so many instant death weapons, which would seem unstoppable (even if other special charecters are immune to the instant death rule). So, you could have a super powerful special charecter, and a lucky Lascannon shot could kill him if his ward save failed. Besides, I read that despite being so powerful, Daemon Princes are actually deemed to be less powerful compared to actual named Greater Daemons. And stat wise, its definitley that way, because a Daemon Prince has worse stats compared to a Bloodthirster, for example.

I atually think its fine that Daigo won. The Grey Knights managed to banish Angron on Armaggedon as well. So they must have "killed' him then, or they couldn't have banished him. Killing a Daemon Prince, even one that is a Primarch just means that they are banished back to the warp where they will be reborn there. Its no biggy. It just happens rarely because they usually don't venture out of the eye of terror in the first place.

40k also has massive vehicles and dreadnaughts and such, so even a bloodthirster, when facing a nemesis dreadknight or an ironclad, might actually come out worse. And if there are things that can kill a bloodthirster, then what more a daemon prince primarch?

Im gonna be honest and say that I dont know a whole ton about the people that write the Warhammer stuff, but whoever Matt Ward is, he just might be a complete dumbass. Period. How could one inconsequiental Grey Knight honestly defeat, subdue, or even so much as SCRATCH, Mortarion? Hes a PRIMARCH. Plus....hes a Demon Prince of Nurgle, how the feth could Draigo find his heart, let alone be able to find enough of it in all the plauge and goo to scar something into it? This is just beyond stupid. I will now proceed to go, find this part of the Grey Knight codex, and do my best to completely tear it out. Stupidity. It would take the whole Grey Knights chapter to take down a Primarch. I mean.....thats like saying that it would have been easy back in the day for Abbadon to just walk up, gut Roboute Guilliman, and then laugh down the whole Ultramarines Chapter. Suuuuuuure. In the end, Primarch versus any regular Space Marine/Juiced Grey Knight, equals primarch walking away without a scratch.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:Draigo and his former master, while very powerful, should simply not have been enough to stand against a Demon-Primarch alone.

Well, Gerantan wasn't able to stand alone against Mortarion, and we don't know if Mortarion fought other Grey Knights beforehand.

Void__Dragon wrote:An Alpha Plus Psyker? I wouldn't consider one of those equal to 30+ Grey Knight Terminators combining their powers, to be honest.

Angron was always a bit more fighty though, and Khorne has a tendency to bless his servants with resistance to Psychic powers.

My question is what was Mortarion doing there in the first place? Wasn't Typhus supposed to have gotten pissed off at him because he just sat on his Daemon-world all day?

Aye, Typhus left because Mortarion modelled his daemon world on Barbarus, his home world, and hardly ever left. The reason he was there is simple, you see, because MATT WARD.

Durza wrote:
Angron's bodyguard numbered twelve. I don't recall a number being given for Mortarion's. If they weren't in a lot of danger, it doesn't make sense that the previous Grand Master would put himself in the position to get killed.

I've heard that he has two, but thinking about it I'm not sure where I got that from. Ah, according to Lexicanum it's from Flight of the Eisenstein, which is Heresy Era and as such it may have changed since.

That'd be the Death Shroud. Two terminator armoured marines with Manreapers. I doubt Mortarion would've brought just them though.

I meant that the Grey Knights victory as a whole wasn't really in danger. I mean, the Grandmasters had enough time to nominate Draigo and then recognise him as their new Supreme Grandmaster. They're unlikely to have been fighting desperately.

Rank isn't achieved with power. If it was then the previous Grand Master would have been stronger than Draigo.

Fair point. They'd presumably have more experience and such, for what that's worth. Draigo's still clearly very special though.

That would be one thing you can say about him, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Im gonna be honest and say that I dont know a whole ton about the people that write the Warhammer stuff, but whoever Matt Ward is, he just might be a complete dumbass. Period. How could one inconsequiental Grey Knight honestly defeat, subdue, or even so much as SCRATCH, Mortarion? Hes a PRIMARCH. Plus....hes a Demon Prince of Nurgle, how the feth could Draigo find his heart, let alone be able to find enough of it in all the plauge and goo to scar something into it? This is just beyond stupid. I will now proceed to go, find this part of the Grey Knight codex, and do my best to completely tear it out. Stupidity. It would take the whole Grey Knights chapter to take down a Primarch. I mean.....thats like saying that it would have been easy back in the day for Abbadon to just walk up, gut Roboute Guilliman, and then laugh down the whole Ultramarines Chapter. Suuuuuuure. In the end, Primarch versus any regular Space Marine/Juiced Grey Knight, equals primarch walking away without a scratch.

Mortarion doesn't look like the typical Nurgle servant for one. He's a skeletal figure, so his heart would be easy enough to find. It would only take a hundred Grey Knights to take down a primarch if Angron's a good measuring stick.

Void__Dragon wrote:
I guess if you hate quality.

I doubt it would have been quality, though. I prefer to let my imagination flesh out the conflict.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Im gonna be honest and say that I dont know a whole ton about the people that write the Warhammer stuff, but whoever Matt Ward is, he just might be a complete dumbass. Period. How could one inconsequiental Grey Knight honestly defeat, subdue, or even so much as SCRATCH, Mortarion? Hes a PRIMARCH. Plus....hes a Demon Prince of Nurgle, how the feth could Draigo find his heart, let alone be able to find enough of it in all the plauge and goo to scar something into it? This is just beyond stupid. I will now proceed to go, find this part of the Grey Knight codex, and do my best to completely tear it out. Stupidity. It would take the whole Grey Knights chapter to take down a Primarch. I mean.....thats like saying that it would have been easy back in the day for Abbadon to just walk up, gut Roboute Guilliman, and then laugh down the whole Ultramarines Chapter. Suuuuuuure. In the end, Primarch versus any regular Space Marine/Juiced Grey Knight, equals primarch walking away without a scratch.

Theres a dumbass somewhere in this equation, but it isn't Mat Ward

I really don't understand the hate here. Use your imaginations people!

My imagination is currently blocking Draigo from existence in the 40k universe. Also, it's blocking the part about necrons killing C'tan. And Grey Knights following the codex astartes. And Calgar being a spiritual liege rather than the head of the primary chapter of the legion that 60% of the Space Marines are made from. And the Sanguinor's existence.

Seriously, Grey Knights deserved better than the Codex they got.