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Ward lifted the guy from 'Game of Thrones' in my opinion

Kahl Drogo, the never-beated barbarian leader.

I can't stand him, fluff, rules, FLUFF, constantly in every list i run into, with fanbois chanting his praises or FLUFF..

Especially the FLUFF.


Just ignore his existence, and wipe the GK off-field (if you can). All you can really do.

Interestingly I just started reading Game of Thrones, lol.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Angron was always a bit more fighty though, and Khorne has a tendency to bless his servants with resistance to Psychic powers.

My question is what was Mortarion doing there in the first place? Wasn't Typhus supposed to have gotten pissed off at him because he just sat on his Daemon-world all day?

Angron is probably stronger stand-up than Mortarion, yeah, but Mortarion was still considered unusually resilient for a Primarch, and Nurgle blesses his servants with even greater resilience, sometimes psychic powers, and of course being a walking epidemic.

But yeah, it is more the way the fluff is written, than Draigo beating him in general.

Fluff is sort of schizo concerning that. Index Astartes on the other hand states that he chose a world close to the rim of the Eye of Terror so that Mortarion could more easily stage attacks on realspace.

Do you want to all know why it was only like 4 lines of text? Because Mortarion is a joke, and the Emperor protects.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Any special charecter can lose to another special charecter, if they are unlucky or if the lore is written that way. The 40k universe has so many instant death weapons, which would seem unstoppable (even if other special charecters are immune to the instant death rule). So, you could have a super powerful special charecter, and a lucky Lascannon shot could kill him if his ward save failed.

Actually, no. Daemon Princes have the "eternal warrior" rule, meaning that it takes more than one hit to take 'em down.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Besides, I read that despite being so powerful, Daemon Princes are actually deemed to be less powerful compared to actual named Greater Daemons. And stat wise, its definitley that way, because a Daemon Prince has worse stats compared to a Bloodthirster, for example.

NO. BAD. BAD! A Daemon Prince is to a Daemon Primarch as a rectangle is to a square. You see, Daemon Primarchs are always Daemon Princes but most Daemon Princes are not Daemon Primarchs. Those stats are intended to represent none Daemon Primarchs. Actual Daemon Primarchs have done insane shizz.

Eldenfirefly wrote:I atually think its fine that Daigo won. The Grey Knights managed to banish Angron on Armaggedon as well. So they must have "killed' him then, or they couldn't have banished him. Killing a Daemon Prince, even one that is a Primarch just means that they are banished back to the warp where they will be reborn there. Its no biggy. It just happens rarely because they usually don't venture out of the eye of terror in the first place.

The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."

Eldenfirefly wrote: 40k also has massive vehicles and dreadnaughts and such, so even a bloodthirster, when facing a nemesis dreadknight or an ironclad, might actually come out worse. And if there are things that can kill a bloodthirster, then what more a daemon prince primarch?

Daemon Primarchs are stronger than the average Daemon Prince. Furthermore, Angron had a body guard of 12 Bloodthirsters. How could he manage to enslave all of them if any single one of them could take him down?

Void__Dragon wrote:Interestingly I just started reading Game of Thrones, lol.

I don't really get the comparison with Drogo, but I'm genuinely happy to hear that. I believe you'll enjoy it.

I have to ask regarding Mortarion : what does it take to stand out as remarquably tough in what is basically a club of demigods ?

LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."

Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.

But thats not how it went down.

I also felt that it need even the barest of details. Right now it sounds like he simply walked up to Mortarion, punched him a few times, carved his heart, and walked away like nothing happened. If there was even the most basic of details it could be interesting and plausable.

ie. Seeing that Mortarion is vulnerable, a force of Grey Knights engaged him, Mortarion, being a Daemon Primarch and all, killed most of them including the Grand Master. However this made him weak after the long battle allowing that sole surviving member, Drago, to defeat Mortarion and carve the chapter master's name into Mortarion's heart before banishing him or something. Leaves room for the imagination, allows Mortarion to retain some dignity and appear a threat, and Drago a badass

However I like to think that simply this is all a dream of Drago and he hasnt actually done any of this. It is simply the Chaos gods fething with him while he is trapped in the warp.

Galdos wrote:ie. Seeing that Mortarion is vulnerable, a force of Grey Knights engaged him, Mortarion, being a Daemon Primarch and all, killed most of them including the Grand Master. However this made him weak after the long battle allowing that sole surviving member, Drago, to defeat Mortarion and carve the chapter master's name into Mortarion's heart before banishing him or something. Leaves room for the imagination, allows Mortarion to retain some dignity and appear a threat, and Drago a badass

Firstly, if that was all spelled out for us, it would be wrong. I mean, at some point the writer would stuff it up, and you'd all be up in arms about how it couldn't be possible because of X, Y and Z.

Secondly, do you really need all that spelled out for you?

Kaldor wrote:

LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."

Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.

But thats not how it went down.

That's exactly why it IS stupid; because that's basically what's said.

Kaldor, what you're failing to grasp is that no Primarch, Loyalist or otherwise, should get their ass handed to them be a mere Justicar at the time, Nevermind it happening IN 4 LINES OF TEXT. Most codex fluff written by other authors is plausible. Calgar killing an Avatar of Khaine: plausible, unlikely. Pask killing a Chaos Titan: Plausible, unlikely. Ward has a tendancy to be utterly INPLAUSIBLE with his fluff: Draigo, Imotekh mutilating Helbrecht, and before I recieve a megaton of "Don't listen to him, He's a BT fanboy" I tested out the Emperor's Champion out against him. Killed him, 3 times. The Champion died once. Bearing in mind that Helbrecht is harder than the Emperor's Champion, I now completly ignore his fluff because of the sheer amount of facepalming needed to remain on the border of sanity,

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."

Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.

But thats not how it went down.

That's exactly why it IS stupid; because that's basically what's said.

Well, theres no accounting for peoples lack of vision or imagination, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Crusader wrote:Kaldor, what you're failing to grasp is that no Primarch, Loyalist or otherwise, should get their ass handed to them be a mere Justicar at the time, Nevermind it happening IN 4 LINES OF TEXT

No, I grasp that fine. I don't see it as a problem, because I can imagine it in my head and it is perfectly plausible.

Kaldor wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LoneLictor wrote: The fluff is bad because 50+ Grey Knights working together barely managed to take down Angron, but 2 Grey Knights managed to easily take down Mortarion. That's why it's bad. It's ridiculious. How would you feel if the fluff say that 2 Khorne Berzerkers took down the Emprah and then I said, "Well if Horus can injure the Emperor then it makes perfect sense that 2 lone Khorne Berzerkers could kill him."

Like I said, you gotta use your imagination. If Geronitan and Draigo just walked up to Mortarions house, kicked the door in, and then took turns in fighting him to the death, then yeah it's stupid.

But thats not how it went down.

That's exactly why it IS stupid; because that's basically what's said.

Well, theres no accounting for peoples lack of vision or imagination, I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Crusader wrote:Kaldor, what you're failing to grasp is that no Primarch, Loyalist or otherwise, should get their ass handed to them be a mere Justicar at the time, Nevermind it happening IN 4 LINES OF TEXT

No, I grasp that fine. I don't see it as a problem, because I can imagine it in my head and it is perfectly plausible.

5(or so) lines of text doesn't make Ward an artistic genius who understands the value of leaving things to the reader's imagination -- that's just bad writing.

As was mentioned, it would have been much better if Ward went into detail about how, for instance, it took a powerful and likely numerous killteam of GK to take on Mortarion, with Draigo being the sole survivor. Not only would that, you know, make actual sense, but it would better accomplish the goal of making Draigo a heroic character.

Ronin-Sage wrote: 5(or so) lines of text doesn't make Ward an artistic genius who understands the value of leaving things to the reader's imagination -- that's just bad writing

Problem being that Wards writing isn't the best. I won't go so far as to say it's actually bad. I think it's ok. But to pull of a story of that magnitude and execute it well would require some serious skill, and I just don't think he'd be up to the task.

I like that it only has a few lines of text dedicated to it, because I can imagine the fight going down any way I want.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:It is given precisely 4 lines in the codex, as Mat Ward doesn't want to explain how a space marine, even a feth-hardcore one, is able to overcome a Daemon Primarch for long enough to tattoo things into his internal organs.

What's written is written, man... We'll have to wait until the next GK codex to right the wrong that's been done

Kaldor wrote:Problem being that Wards writing isn't the best. I won't go so far as to say it's actually bad. I think it's ok. But to pull of a story of that magnitude and execute it well would require some serious skill, and I just don't think he'd be up to the task.

I like that it only has a few lines of text dedicated to it, because I can imagine the fight going down any way I want.

Ward being an inherently bad writer isn't an excuse for vague, bad fluff.

I was suprised beatin Mortarion was a few lines but they gave a lot of attention to his bout with the greater daemon and his escapades in the warp. I like Draigo in game but his fluff is well a cause for eye rolling kinda like mephiston, sanguinor, thraka, the art collecting necron, etc.

Kaldor, it is not a case where we should have to use our imagination.
It is the genesis of the character, his establishing moment, the event that crowned him Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, or in layman's terms Strongest Mothafrakka of the Most Elite Bunch of Mothafrakkaz in the Galaxy. If one guy has ever deserved to be made the embodiment of awesomeness, it is him. Thus, we have every right to expect his establishing moment to pack quite some wham!, if I may say so.

And what do we get ? A few botched lines that make it feel like it was Tuesday.

Dude, if you like the character, you can only agree he deserved better.

That he was actually capable of besting Mortarion, I do not deny. Over-the-top though it may appear, his status imposes that he be the stuff of legends and Grey Knights are the nemesis of daemons if there ever was one, so on paper I'm okay with that.
If done right.
Read this to really grasp the matter at hand. The fact a Daemon Primarch would be beaten in single combat is already a stretch. As I said, I can go with it. But when instead of the appropriately epic duel unfolding before my avid eyes I get a measly footnote saying "this Draigo dude kicked Stinkarion's rotten ass big time", all I can do is grind my teeth. Such a wasted opportunity. Such carelessness in handling the story.

You say Mr Ward would have screwed it up either way had he took the time to flesh out the event.

Then nothing forced him to put that bit in the story at all. If you cannot do something well, you don't do it. Common sense. Admittedly he was the lone writer on the codex and had to write something. Maybe he didn't even like writing that. But he did, and he could have easily done better had he wanted to. (Disclaimer : I have nothing against him as an individual and after weighting the incoherent bits and the improvements on the Daemon Hunters dex I am in fact rather happy about his work. Doesn't change the fact he had a couple derpy moves in the fluff section.)

You know what's more sad ? Something that has not been touched in this thread but is directly related : the duel "takes" four-ish lines. Draigo weighs two pages of background.

And how is all this space used ?
To consecrate him as a Boring Invincible Hero, retroactively validating the point that he likely only vanquished Mortarion not thanks to the Emperor's light, but thanks to the Author's blessing.

I do find Draigo's story cruelly lacking, all the more since I can see myself using the model at some point in time. Nothing personal though, I'm not a literary critic on a mission to purge poor writing where I find it (as my lengthy post might make you think) ; I just like to write as a means to practice argumentation and the language

Next codex Draigo will kill a chaos god

DK wrote:Next codex Draigo will kill a chaos god

I'm pretty sure at that point someone will track Matt Ward down and brutally murder him with a rusty spoon and pasta strainer.

Not that I'm advocating that.

LoneLictor wrote:

DK wrote:Next codex Draigo will kill a chaos god

I'm pretty sure at that point someone will track Matt Ward down and brutally murder him with a rusty spoon and pasta strainer.

Not that I'm advocating that.

'We can't possibly do that..... who'd clean up the mess.... '

Can't we just send a Grey Knight home to the chap?

Just a couple of pointers to some people that are making some quite odd arguements.

1. Mortarion was not known for his combat prowess.

No he wasnt, atleast amongst his fellow primarchs. Primarchs, not fellow space marines. That is not to say he was the worst of them either. A handful of or less of the 18 known primarchs were famous because of their abilities in battle, that does NOT mean that the remaining primarchs were weak or even on the same level as the most powerful marines. They were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.

2. Draigo is said to carry the Emperors gene-seed.

So? Mortarion is a primarch, he definitely carries the Emperors gene-seed. Arguement invalid.

3. The whole "the story doesnt need to be fleshed out" arguement.

Im sorry, what? How could you possibly hold a straight face while saying that? There is no way. For a Grey knight, even an exceptional one such as Draigo, to first of all get close enough to Mortarion to do the deed would be so incredibly difficult that its nearly unimaginable. He is surrounded by traitor marines infused with the power of Nurgle, making the Death Guard whom are already legendary for their resilience even more so. Do you have any idea how difficult, deadly and demoralizing it must be to fight such an army? Not to mention he would have to deal with the Death shroud, two of Mortarions most trusted, capable and well equipped troopers. Even without the infusion of chaos im sure these two warriors would be able to stand their own against almost anything the galaxy can throw against their primarch. Last but not least ofcourse, there is Mortarion himself. He is a primarch. By definition that means he on a higher level of badassery than any "vanilla" marine could even hope to achieve, even a Grey knight. He is also infused by the power of chaos and has been elevated to the status of Daemon prince, one of the most powerful beings in the entire galaxy. For one man to push his way through a sea of unrelenting marines, face off against Mortarions chosen bodyguard, win and then start backhanding the primarch himself as if it were child's play while scribbling stuff on his internal organs is so unlikely that... I dont even know what compares to it. I really dont.



If you cant do it well, dont do it at all. It has been mentioned before in this thread. In this case it fits so well. It is by far the most stupid thing Ward has even written and that story itself deserves atleast 2 pages to be justifiable. No one likes a Marie-sue character. Only a fan boy would argue otherwise and that is exactly what we are seeing here.


Rant over.

But Kaldor Draigo is the 19th. Primarch. At least that's the only way he makes sense to me. So that's mean the Grey-sues is either Legion II or XI.

Beaviz81 wrote:But Kaldor Draigo is the 19th. Primarch. At least that's the only way he makes sense to me. So that's mean the Grey-sues is either Legion II or XI.

Which is impossible as the other two primarchs along with their legions have been killed of, or atleast it is hinted at IIRC, by the SW. Not to mention the fact that the Grey knights were created during the second founding which makes it impossible*2.

Eyh, he has been killed a few times, so why not?

He never died IIRC, he has been banished to the warp is all. He only appears in the fluff in the late M41 which makes this highly unlikely. The two missing primarchs are just that, missing. Whether they are dead or off on a holiday somewhere doesnt matter as they are not part of the 40k setting. Draigo is not a primarch, I think that is simply wishful thinking.

Then Draigo is a Daemon Prince that fight for the Emprah. All hail the noble daemon Kaldor Draigo.

DarknessEternal wrote:Mortarion is a daemon.

No matter what Draigo did to his corpse, it doesn't "kill" him. It, at worst, sends him home.

The IoM would have a lot less chaos to worry about if they all didn't have infinite respawns.

McNinja wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Mortarion is a daemon.

No matter what Draigo did to his corpse, it doesn't "kill" him. It, at worst, sends him home.

The IoM would have a lot less chaos to worry about if they all didn't have infinite respawns.

And that is why the Old ones should have installed Punkbuster.

Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.

What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.

Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?

I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.

Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?

If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.