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Kaldor wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.

What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.

Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?

I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.

Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?

If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.

If I said, in one sentence, "Then the Grot killed the Emprah with one eye closed and his hands behind his back even though the Emprah was at full powah," I could use your logic and say, "USE YOUR IMAGINATION IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE."

Wow..

There is absolutely nothing in anything written about Draigo that conveys any sort of effort on his part aside from, sort of ironically, his fight with M'kar. That a fight with some dickweed Daemon Prince who is the designated whipping boy of 40k at the moment reads off as more of a challenge than fighting a Daemon Primarch isn't good writing, it's bad writing.

There is no sense of effort on Draigo's part conveyed through the writing, and no, really vaguely statements are not better than detail. Lord of the Rings is not written like this: "Some hairy-footed short guys called Hobbits and elves and men and dwarves and a Wizard left to destroy the One Ring. The party was separated and a fat Hobbit and a whiny Hobbit went off alone with the Ring. A bunch of wars with Orcs happened but the heroes defeated the Orcs, and the Witch King was killed by a woman and a Hobbit. Frodo then destroys the One Ring."

Mortarion's bit of fluff is unsatisfying, sure, I could fill in random unsupported details to the fight, and I have actually for the sake of an example of what might have made this fluff okay, but that doesn't change that what is written there is crap.

TheRobotLol wrote:Wow..

Now I'm actually considering writing a story about a Grot killing the Emprah. Just for shock value of course.

I seem to recall owning the Primarch models and some grey Knights when i played Epic.

GK termies were about 2 mm high, and 5 to a base.

Daemon priimarch were on scale with a Knight. minititan.

I still use my Magnus as a Tzeentch Herald. He's about the size of a Horror of Tzeentch. On an epic battlefield he's about the same height as 4 or five rhinos, stacked.

He was my primary Titan-killer, too. One shot from the eye-beam, and goodnight Mr Warlord..

Primarchs are SM + sized. Big space marines.

Daemon Princes are about 4 space marines high, thereabouts.. Seriously big.

Daemon Primarchs would seem to be bigger.

Makes the heart easier to find and carve i suppose, if he lies down and lets you monogram his internal organs

**sidenote - I have had one grot kill Calgar with a rusty derringer. The guy can supposedly hold off whole waaghs by himself for days. ... These sort of things can happen, but i'd expect a decent fething story of how Modo the Grot stalked a Chapter Master and put him down like a rabid dog.

5 lines just doesn't cut it

Daemon Primarchs

lol this threads still going on

LoneLictor wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.

What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.

Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?

I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.

Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?

If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.

If I said, in one sentence, "Then the Grot killed the Emprah with one eye closed and his hands behind his back even though the Emprah was at full powah," I could use your logic and say, "USE YOUR IMAGINATION IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE."

Exactly. "Then Draigo beat Mortarion" as a complete story is the highest form of literature possible by his reasoning.

Redaxe13 wrote:lol this threads still going on

It is eternal.

-

Kaldor wrote:If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.

That's all we can canonically confirm that happened.

EDIT:- (Suspending disbelief for two seconds to assume that Draigo beating Mortation is plausible).

Matt Ward is being paid for this, he should have used his imagination to provide an adequate springboard for our imagination, because all we got is 'Draigo + Geronitan fight Mortarion, Geronitan dies, Draigo bitchslaps'. Seriously, what the frak?

The annoying thing about it is that this was a monumental duel during which Draigo's mentor was slain - therefore prime ground for character development for the Emperor's sake! - and all we get is 'Draigo won'. This should be his defining moment! If it were handled as his great achievement, the point where he came into his own and cemented his legend in the annals of the Imperium's Heroes, and FLESHED OUT A TAD, I probably wouldn't be so skeptical. But it's mentioned almost as a side-note. Just another Tuesday.

"Oh, and yesterday I beat up Mortarion and his bodyguard and carved my mentor's name into his heart. Seemed like the poetic thing to do, you'know? To make sure he never forgets and all that jazz, anyway, what's done is done, tomorrow I'm going skiing..."

This was THE Grey Knights Grand Master dueling with THE Mortarion. Come on. This wasn't done justice.

LoneLictor wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:(Primarchs) were most likely multiple levels above even the most talented legionnaire. This arguement, to me atleast, is completely invalid.

What 'levels' are you talking about here? For gods sake, use your imagination! Under the right circumstances, a toddler could kill you, no matter how much stronger faster and tougher you are. And the gap between a dedicated anti-daemon psyker Astartes, armed with all sorts of anti-daemon goodies, and a daemon primarch is a lot smaller than you seem to think. It's like when Superman fought Batman in the Dark Knight Returns. On paper, Superman would roflstomp bats in a heartbeat, but Batman has all the gear and plans in place to even the odds.

Further, you completely invalidate your point further on by complaining that it could only be justifiable by at least two pages of writing. Either it can be justified, or it can't. Which is it, dude?

I really don't see the problem with this snippet. It outlays something cool and huge and epic and extreme, and then leaves it up to us to fill in the details ourselves. It would be cool to have that whole thing laid out for us, but I don't need it and really it would have meant too much focus on Draigo in the codex.

Have your imaginations atrophied so much that you can't even concieve of how Draigo and his buddies were fighting Mortarion in the first place? How the Grey Knights managed to isolate Mortarion and his Deathshroud from the rest of their Daemon Legion, then lead an assault to banish him? How the battle raged between Draigo, Geronitan and a bodyguard of Paladins and the foul Daemons accompanying Mortarion, until Draigo witnessed his master being cut down and in a fit of righteous fury decapitated one distracted Deathshroud and clove the other in two, before turning his blade on the battered weakened Mortarion, his Daemon powers useless against Draigo, his Daemonic flesh burning at the mere proximity of the holy warrior? Of how the two titans duelled for who knows how long before Draigo finally struck the telling blow, banishing the Daemon prince back to the warp, and then digging the heart from its corpse and carving his masters name on it?

If all you can imagine is Draigo and Geronitan wading into a horde of Daemons and taking turns at battle Mortarion and the Deathshroud, then the problem is with you, not with the story.

If I said, in one sentence, "Then the Grot killed the Emprah with one eye closed and his hands behind his back even though the Emprah was at full powah," I could use your logic and say, "USE YOUR IMAGINATION IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE."

First of all you have obviously missed my point. I never said that Mortarion could never be beaten by the likes of Draigo, I just pointed out that some arguments made by people had no credibility.

I have no problem imagining anything. The problem lies not with the people you are arguing with on this thread (some of whom have some pretty great pieces of writting posted in the fiction section, pretty sure that means they have no problems with their imagination) but the person you are protecting. This was arguably the most important moment in Draigos life, it should be fleshed out and detailed. It shouldnt be a side note. Even a fanboy like yourself should be able to see where we are coming from. It is a defining moment and should be treated as such. It needs detail to be justifiable. Those 5 lines could have been written by a 6year old and that is exactly why they are so atrocious. It DESERVES to be fleshed out.

Several examples of your logic has been presented since my last post and I couldnt agree more, it doesnt make sense. Either you are too stubborn to admit that you might be wrong or you are too blinded by Draigo's shiny-ness to see reason. You and the people who share your opinion in this thread are a minority, and theres a reason for that.

Its because Chaos makes you weak...And Draigo is a badass, also its written... a grot killing the god emperor is not...its happened, chaos is a joke.

Chaos made a primarch strong enough to basically kill the Emperor in a one on one fight. Therefore Draigo more powerful than the Emperor.

So your saying Horus is weaker as the chosen of all the gods then the chosen of nurgle?

DK wrote:Its because Chaos makes you weak...And Draigo is a badass, also its written... a grot killing the god emperor is not...its happened, chaos is a joke.

Yes, Chaos definately makes you weak. That's why Daemon Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators, Sorcerers and other Chaos blessed guys have worst stats than the average Guardsmen. Wait a second...

And you clearly didn't read any of the post beyond that one sentence. He was arguing that it's good fluff because it leaves the details up to your imagination. So I said that by that logic, the sentence "A grot kills the Emprah" is great writing because it leaves a ton to the imagination, like 'how the feth did a grot kill the Emprah?'

This is just horrible fluff courtesy of a bad writer. And that's why I have my own little bubble of personal canon that's a fusion of Rogue Trader and 3rd Edition style fluff and that sort of thing. Back when Warhammer 40k authors actually understood what the setting was about and made sure to not let fanwank get in the way of good writing. End rant.

LoneLictor wrote:

TheRobotLol wrote:Wow..

Now I'm actually considering writing a story about a Grot killing the Emprah. Just for shock value of course.

Actually, that's what the Terminus Decree is.

A grot inna box - just add water

Draigo wrote:So your saying Horus is weaker as the chosen of all the gods then the chosen of nurgle?

No, I'm saying Horus and all four chaos gods combined are weaker than Draigo.

I always viewed the drago story as a moral boosting propaganda story. Only then does it make sense. The iom is failling. Deamons are slipping into the materium more frequently, and even if the GK are super space marines their still part human. Theyre susceptable to moral issues. So the masters get together and twist the story of draigo. Instead of Draigo and a squad of paladins slaying mortarian its only draigo, and instead of draigo dying he is instead sucked into the warp, and fights the good fight and sometimes escapes just to help.

Why do people consider the Grey Knights to be just like normal space marines? Grey Knights are on a whole other level of toughness. They are above and beyond the lesser Chapters and are extremely specialised at fighting daemons.

So its not surprising that a daemon got killed.

Seriously, Grey Knights deserved better than the Codex they got.

What, you mean they didn't deserve a playable codex? Good luck with their previous one...

GoldenKaos wrote:The annoying thing about it is that this was a monumental duel during which Draigo's mentor was slain - therefore prime ground for character development for the Emperor's sake

Thatguy91 wrote:It DESERVES to be fleshed out.

I agree, but I don't think it could have been done without turning the book into Codex: Kaldor Draigo. He's a tough nut, as established by the bitch-slapping, but what makes him interesting is the ultimate failure of his actions, being trapped in the Warp and all. Like a lone saint wandering the streets of hell. In order of things that needed to be fleshed out, that is more important than some fight that only serves to tell us how bad-ass he is. Space had to be cut, and I don't mind that it was cut there.

To tell the truth, I'm not even a huge Draigo fan (despite my username). I don't mind that the beat the snot out of Mortarion. Beating up Daemons is what Grey Knights do. I like that he got stuck in the warp and wanders without end, completely alone. But having him turn up at the right time to help out his Grey Knight buddies seems a bit too deus ex machina for me. Having him stuck in the warp, looking for a way back home but never getting there would make for a cool story, but popping in and out seemingly at will... is just a bit meh. It doesn't ruin the character for me, I can still see it happening, it's just a bit meh.

The only thing that really gets my goat in this thread is people wailing that no one could ever beat a Primarch, so it's completely ridiculous that Draigo did it.

People don't wail that no one could ever beat a primarch, people point out that it should be an epic tale, not four lines. It's hard to imagine that Mortarion is important to the fluff when he gets so casually defeated and his only purpose is to give a convenient reason for Draigo to be Supreme Grand Master rather than just Grand Master.

Grey Knights are specialised in killing Daemons. If you have a chaos problem, the highest chance that it will be solved, would be by calling in the Grey knights. In order to defeat chaos as and when they encounter it, Grey Knights have to be powerful enough to kill not just some lowly Daemon, but also Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and yes, even Daemon Primarchs too.

Are we saying that a Daemon Primarch is so baddass that it simply cannot be defeated? Then any one Daemon Primarch can just lead his Daemon Host on a one way street straight to Terra and just be done with it. Although they are powerful, they can be killed, just like any other monstrous creature in 40k can. The good thing to killing a Daemon in fluff writing is that it just gets reborn in the warp, so you didn't do anything lasting damage that has to be retconned.

Imagine if the fluff reads that Draigo killed Eldrad, or someone who is not immortal. Then you got an even bigger problem because you can't use that guy anymore cos in the fluff, he has already been killed by Draigo.

In any case, Draigo is one of the most powerful grandmasters ever in the line of Greyknight grandmasters. And Grey knights are supposed to be one level higher than normal space marines. So, in the context, why is it so hard to imagine that he defeated Motarion, and he had help too. Magnus Calgar killed an Eldar Avatar of Khaine, which is equivalent to a Greater Daemon any day.

The Chaos gods got loads of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Just because the Daemon Primarchs are famous to the imperium doesn't necessarily mean that when they ascended to become princes, they were granted so much power that they are much more powerful than a Greater Daemon.

Nowhere in the chaos codex, or chaos daemon codex does it state that wihin the hierachy of chaos, the Daemon Primarchs stand much higher than other Daemon Princes or Greater Daemons. There is also no direct evidence in any of the codex that a Daemon Primarch is much more powerful than a named Greater Daemon like say Fate Weaver or such.

So, why is it so hard to believe that Draigo could have banished Motarion? If the most powerful of the Grey Knights cannot defeat a Daemon Primarch, then who can?

@eldenfirefly: Eldrad is dead. Killed by Chaos.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Grey Knights are specialised in killing Daemons. If you have a chaos problem, the highest chance that it will be solved, would be by calling in the Grey knights. In order to defeat chaos as and when they encounter it, Grey Knights have to be powerful enough to kill not just some lowly Daemon, but also Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, and yes, even Daemon Primarchs too.

As a group, not one Leeroy Jenkins owning them. Angron was banished by the combined power of a hundred Grey Knights, and killed about eighty eight of them.

Are we saying that a Daemon Primarch is so baddass that it simply cannot be defeated? Then any one Daemon Primarch can just lead his Daemon Host on a one way street straight to Terra and just be done with it. Although they are powerful, they can be killed, just like any other monstrous creature in 40k can. The good thing to killing a Daemon in fluff writing is that it just gets reborn in the warp, so you didn't do anything lasting damage that has to be retconned.

Except that when you do it enough times, Chaos ceases to seem like a threat at all. Considering that it is the reason for the Imperium's state of disrepair and has two codices, this is a bad thing. As above, they can be killed. The difference is that Angron was treated as the epic battle it should be, whereas with Mortarion it was just a case of "If Draigo beats this guy, it instantly establishes how awesome he is and I don't need to waste time on silly things like detail and characterisation."

Imagine if the fluff reads that Draigo killed Eldrad, or someone who is not immortal. Then you got an even bigger problem because you can't use that guy anymore cos in the fluff, he has already been killed by Draigo.

Eldrad's already dead. And he's still available for use, because the battle can just be before he dies.

In any case, Draigo is one of the most powerful grandmasters ever in the line of Greyknight grandmasters. And Grey knights are supposed to be one level higher than normal space marines. So, in the context, why is it so hard to imagine that he defeated Motarion, and he had help too. Magnus Calgar killed an Eldar Avatar of Khaine, which is equivalent to a Greater Daemon any day.

Because Mortarion is the one of the toughest primarchs, dedicated to the god that grants unnatural resilience to its followers. And he didn't have help. The fluff states he was alone and unaided. It's pretty much the only detail it gives. It's possible to imagine the defeat, it's just unlikely, and it should have been given the space it deserved. A lone Grey Knight beating a daemon primarch without dying where previously it took one hundred with most of them dead at the end should have been pretty momentous.

The Chaos gods got loads of Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes. Just because the Daemon Primarchs are famous to the imperium doesn't necessarily mean that when they ascended to become princes, they were granted so much power that they are much more powerful than a Greater Daemon.

Each and every primarch apart from Alpharius got their own planet in the Eye of Terror which they shaped to their own whims. Slightly better than the average GD. Angron had a bodyguard of a dozen bloodthirsters. Lorgar beat Khorne's strongest (or one of his strongest) Bloodthirsters while still not blessed by Chaos. So yeah, they're more powerful than Greater Daemons.

Nowhere in the chaos codex, or chaos daemon codex does it state that wihin the hierachy of chaos, the Daemon Primarchs stand much higher than other Daemon Princes or Greater Daemons. There is also no direct evidence in any of the codex that a Daemon Primarch is much more powerful than a named Greater Daemon like say Fate Weaver or such.

That's because the primarchs enter the fluff so rarely. If you'll permit me to use points as a comparison, Fateweaver costs 333, Angron costs 750. Logically, Angron is more powerful.

So, why is it so hard to believe that Draigo could have banished Motarion? If the most powerful of the Grey Knights cannot defeat a Daemon Primarch, then who can?

The most powerful Grey Knight, as part of a group of Grey Knights, in a epic battle.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:@eldenfirefly: Eldrad is dead. Killed by Chaos.

I thought the last bit of fluff was that there was some indication that Eldrad was only mostly dead. Glowing soulstones or somesuch.

I don't think the issue is that people think a Daemon Primarch can't be defeated. It's that any battle that involves them should be a truely epic thing. The only canon (ish) facts I know about battles involving a Daemon Primarch are Magnus at the Fang and Angron at Armageddon (who names these places?). Angron chowed through nearly an entire company of Grey Knights, plus who knows how many Space Wolves and guardsmen. Magnus punched his way through most of the Space Wolves dreads, a chooser of the slain, a wolf lord, and the great wolf. And even then he basically ended up losing due to bad writing (lots of sections where he is 'taken aback by the fury of <NAMED CHARACTER X>'s assault' and just stands there and gets punched in the face, or eats plasma cannon shots for no good reason.

To sum up a battle against a Daemon Primarch with 'some GK attacked him, the Grand Master was killed, but his buddy took down Mortarion and then indulged his artistic side' is garbage.

To put it another way, "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." Now use your imagination.

'He's only mostly dead...'

Princess Bride. Awesome movie..


Glowing Soulstones can be all too easily nommed by chaos beasties though, unless the Eldar can recover them. Obscene sweetmeats

I would ahve had no issue with a bunch of GK getting Mortarion down while draigo hacked his head off/ran him through..

Tattooing the heart of something WAY bigger than you that isn't standing still and letting you do it belongs in anime, not 40K

Ascalam wrote:'He's only mostly dead...'

Princess Bride. Awesome movie..


Glowing Soulstones can be all too easily nommed by chaos beasties though, unless the Eldar can recover them. Obscene sweetmeats

I would ahve had no issue with a bunch of GK getting Mortarion down while draigo hacked his head off/ran him through..

Tattooing the heart of something WAY bigger than you that isn't standing still and letting you do it belongs in anime, not 40K

I think the gist was that Eldrad got in over his head when he attempted to crump whatever it was that was posessing the Blackstone fortress (hint: She was thirsty). He ended up as missing at the end of the campaign, but some soulstones back on the craftworld that were linked to him or something still had some sparks of light still in them, so it's an indication that he might not actually be dead.

Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't. Grey knights usually don't go into any mission alone, unless it was a special case like his curse thingy. We know his previous grandmaster got killed by Motarion. And he most likely wasn't alone either. Its quite possible to imagine that there was a huge epic fight involving many grey knights, and death guard on both sides before the grand master was killed and after that, Draigo avenged him.

Besides, looking at how he is able to literally survive for eons in the realm of chaos, killing any daemon that got near to him, banishing a primarch would seem possible, for the likes of Draigo.

I find Matt Ward's fluff entertaining to read. And quite memerable too. I have read lots of codexes and actually, many of the other exploits in the other codexes are more forgettable even though they could be entire pages long. But with one short paragraph on this, it not only makes an impression, but so many of us remember this and see, there is even a thread in this forum arguing about how this is possible.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't.

Matt Ward wrote:Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.

Durza wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:Its only a short paragraph on this, so we don't know if Draigo was alone or not. Its likely he wasn't.

Matt Ward wrote:Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart.

That was the day I died inside.