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 sierra 1247 wrote:
So essentially... apart from the WD leaks we cant be sure of anything?

Welcome to the world of rumours

Any pics of the Codex yet?

 Begel Dverl wrote:
Any pics of the Codex yet?

If there were, it would be posted.

 pretre wrote:

 Begel Dverl wrote:
Any pics of the Codex yet?

If there were, it would be posted.

... or already deleted

Well at least now i know my wages'll stay relatively untouched for a bit. .....wait...

Puscifer wrote:


Moving Tau suits to double weapons would be incredibly op.

Four shot Deathrain?

I'd be more worried about four shot Plasma Rifle or six shot burst cannon.

Because 4 plasma gun CSM chosen or 10 man combi sternguard/WolfGuard or IG melta vets or 15 tankbustas is somehow not OP, but heaven forbid the Tau can fire four missile pod shots?

If Tau can't fight in HTH, then they have to do the killing in the shooting phase. One shot wonders are not going to cut it.

 Archonate wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

RogueRegault wrote:
I wonder if the Riptide can be given the Stimulant Injector, and if the wound can be saved with FNP.

Also, considering the rumor that Crisis Suits now all have multi tracker standard, I wonder if they'll move from "double weapons = twinlinked" to "double weapons = double weapons".

Getting four shots each from Deathrains would be nice.

Moving Tau suits to double weapons would be incredibly op.

Four shot Deathrain?

I'd be more worried about four shot Plasma Rifle or six shot burst cannon.

It's not op if you're paying the right amount of points for it. Twin-Linking weapons always should have been an option rather than forced. Two of the same weapon isn't that big of a difference from 2 different weapons.
I can fire 5 shots with MT+MP+PR, but I can't fire 4 shots with MT+PR+PR? It's silly.

It makes a big difference with marker lights available to boost your To Hit chance. Imagine the effect of three crisis suits with two separate pulse rifles each on SMs and Terminators if they could fire 12 shots on a BS of 5 with no cover save allowed.

Oh no! Something that would cost easily 60 points can kill marines with support from another (squishy, unreliable, expensive) unit, and is itself very vulnerable to ubiquitous weapons like the krak missile! Whatever shall we do?

Like, it would kill 2-odd marines, and much less if the pathfinders were killed, and much much less if you were in cover, or just shot the suits before they rapid fired. Your worst case scenario has them killing about half their points, with support, and you in the open - fairly standard for a specialized shooting unit.

I wouldn't call that overpowered at all, and in fact, I would welcome that in the new codex should it happen. Nobody would cry about the crisis suits that went splat by turn 2 anyways getting some turn 3 firepower love.

But then if the target survives they get massacred in HtH regardless? I can imagine that.

Tau getting massacred in hth..I have never had to imagine that its a generally accepted fact, just sometimes you get a suprise and win..and then it feels like Xmas.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Tau getting massacred in hth..I have never had to imagine that its a generally accepted fact, just sometimes you get a suprise and win..and then it feels like Xmas.

Sometimes standard space marines charge your broadsides.

uberjoras wrote:
Oh no! Something that would cost easily 60 points can kill marines with support from another (squishy, unreliable, expensive) unit, and is itself very vulnerable to ubiquitous weapons like the krak missile! Whatever shall we do?

Like, it would kill 2-odd marines, and much less if the pathfinders were killed, and much much less if you were in cover, or just shot the suits before they rapid fired. Your worst case scenario has them killing about half their points, with support, and you in the open - fairly standard for a specialized shooting unit.

I wouldn't call that overpowered at all, and in fact, I would welcome that in the new codex should it happen. Nobody would cry about the crisis suits that went splat by turn 2 anyways getting some turn 3 firepower love.

12 S6 AP3 shots (correct me if I fethed the stats up) at BS5 ignores cover is roughly 7 dead marines. For comparison, that takes 63 bolter shots at BS4, the equivalent of 31.5 Marines in Rapid Fire range unloading. On a platform that can move-shoot-move.

I'm not going to cry OP, because it's possible to do something about it, but it's yet another complication for melee MEQ, which is what I like playing, so I'm as Bosses as everyone else.

My math was per-model; our numbers agree. Maybe you'll have to accept that a 200 point 3-model elite slot unit with ~200 points of pure markerlight support can kill plain old marines pretty well? 5 Terminators in a Land Raider is pretty scary too, do you just throw assault marines at that problem until it goes away?

Deep striking that kind of firepower would be nice, but deep striking suits has been so ridiculously unreliable for me that I've personally stopped trying, even with a pathfinder devilfish, they always mishap on that single enemy model 11" out.

uberjoras wrote:
5 Terminators in a Land Raider is pretty scary too, do you just throw assault marines at that problem until it goes away

Yup. Being Fearless in CC with hidden Power Fists along with having 4 attacks per model on the charge means I usually don't worry too much about being out-melee'd.

Also, I just realised my math is off; 12 BS5 S6 AP3 shots are roughly 9 dead Marines, or 81 bolter shots at BS4. Assuming we'll use CSM for the example that's 41 Marines for 533 points Rapid Firing.

Even if we scratch the Pathfinders, 12 BS3 (worst case scenario) S6 AP3 shots is 5 dead MEQ on a platform that is going to be almost impossible to assault if JSJ stays the same. I realize that Tau need to have good shooting and ways to avoid CC, but between improved Overwatch, plasma everywhere, JSJ and more Ion stuff things aren't looking good for assaulty MEQ armies, which really is what I care about.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 sierra 1247 wrote:
So essentially... apart from the WD leaks we cant be sure of anything?

Welcome to the world of rumours

Or more specifically that unique set of rumors from that particular source.

We have had a lot of other rumors from other sources with more details and better track records.

I did not give ANY of those rumors in that set much credibility - too inconsistent and smelled to "wishlisty".

I just hope the new sprues (pathfinder and broadside) are full of enough extra bit goodness that there are plenty to go around and lots of bits on ebay.
(and before someone responds to the recent gw changes - the majority of guys on ebay are not affected).

I might actually get the WD this time.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I might actually get the WD this time.

Everyone who can't understand GW's silence policy, take note.

Lol Manchu.

Why is auto-killing SMs so blasphemous? Non-SM armies have to deal with it all the time, with infantry units that are just as expensive.
It's a fact of the game that heavy weapons, which cost relatively little, destroy tanks, which cost a lot more. So trying to find even ground for what should kill what, points-wise, is futile.

I'm really hoping that assaulty armies are forced to re-think their one-trick-pony approach when fighting Tau.

On the other hand, should Tau be forced to rethink their "one-trick-pony" approach when faced with other shooty armies?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

uberjoras wrote:
5 Terminators in a Land Raider is pretty scary too, do you just throw assault marines at that problem until it goes away

Yup. Being Fearless in CC with hidden Power Fists along with having 4 attacks per model on the charge means I usually don't worry too much about being out-melee'd.

Also, I just realised my math is off; 12 BS5 S6 AP3 shots are roughly 9 dead Marines, or 81 bolter shots at BS4. Assuming we'll use CSM for the example that's 41 Marines for 533 points Rapid Firing.

Even if we scratch the Pathfinders, 12 BS3 (worst case scenario) S6 AP3 shots is 5 dead MEQ on a platform that is going to be almost impossible to assault if JSJ stays the same. I realize that Tau need to have good shooting and ways to avoid CC, but between improved Overwatch, plasma everywhere, JSJ and more Ion stuff things aren't looking good for assaulty MEQ armies, which really is what I care about.

The 9 dead MEQ can be brought down to 6 in even regular cover, and the 5 can be brought to ~3 in regular cover. If you're in ruins, have fnp, t5, or anything survivability buff at all, it adversely affects the tau shooting. You're using pretty much one of the only things that crisis suit configuration would be good against, and proved that it's actually not entirely amazing against it point-for-point!

5 dead MEQ is ~80 points. If you put your regular marines in front, your jump pack assault marines with hidden power fists can just pounce the crisis suits, and destroy the suits in CC. JSJ only keeps us at ~19", -if- we're going straight backwards. That means you have a 7" charge, which you probably get off and ID the suits, so you've killed 200 points in one assault phase after losing 80 in one shooting phase. Bolters are a poor comparison to plasma versus MEQ in the open anyways, so I don't appreciate the strawmanning there. What about if we compared it to something more sensible - 2 vindicators, a dev team or two, plasma cannons in tactical squads, meltavets, a plasma russ, purifiers? Those are all about on the same level, some maybe mildly less efficient at MEQ killing, but overall more flexible, and mostly better in assault and/or longer ranged. Imagine how tau feel when even a single grey hunter can wipe out 12 FW in assault, with regularity. And how our only other scoring unit, kroot, feel when they get shot by anything at all.

So yes, a little power creep on suits would be great in the new codex. As it is, the riptide is looking pretty gimmicky and awful to me, so I do hope that we get a little buff on our existing elite slots. Crisis suits are still pretty mandatory for killing marines off an objective, but that requires using them in a dangerous role, and will in all likelihood get them killed fairly early. The main issue is that our troops are really really squishy. since 5/6 games rely on fire warriors and/or kroot scoring, when am I really scoring anything but maybe first blood or slay the warlord? If stealth suits don't become troops, tau are still going to be a really difficult army to win with.

@uberjoras, well played. compare it to the shootieness and pt level of something more equivalent than basic marines as these are supposed to be ELITES not just troops.

@compel, i hope they DO give us more than one trick to our pony because Tau gunline vs IG gunline isnt always the most fun. Especially if everyone brings an aegis lol

 Compel wrote:
On the other hand, should Tau be forced to rethink their "one-trick-pony" approach when faced with other shooty armies?

THen I guess we'll have ourselves a bit of a Mexican standoff...

In mexico they just call it a standoff.

If the rumors of Markerlights allowing you to ignore cover is true, you'll almost completely wipe out a 10-man Marine unit if you get Crisis suits in Rapid Fire range and Crisis Suits could duplicate weapons.

Complaining about Strawmen when assuming Jump Infantry in the same post? No one except Blood Angels uses them because they're utter rubbish. Not to mention you'd gun the front 9 down, handily leaving the assault unit out of assault range. I just don't see why Crisis Suits have to bring special weapon-spam up to 11. Keep them as is, lower points and add some new weapons, but don't create a unit that single-handily nullifies any bloody chance of getting into CC if you're a MEQ unit. Tau being completely helpless in melee is just as bad, but the solution is not to swing the pendulum to the other extreme.

The issue with the comparison to Melta-spam, Plasma-spam etc. is that allowing Crisis suits to take duplicate weapons lets you bring 6 of the same special weapon in the same unit on a unit that is highly manoeuvrable. Escalating the special weapons-spam is not what the game needs.

As a final note, what are these Space Marine-costed units that die in droves, and why is the solution to gun everyone down in droves, instead of addressing the fact that these units obviously aren't worth their points (and if they are, what's the issue?).

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If the rumors of Markerlights allowing you to ignore cover is true, you'll almost completely wipe out a 10-man Marine unit if you get Crisis suits in Rapid Fire range and Crisis Suits could duplicate weapons.

Complaining about Strawmen when assuming Jump Infantry in the same post? No one except Blood Angels uses them because they're utter rubbish. Not to mention you'd gun the front 9 down, handily leaving the assault unit out of assault range. I just don't see why Crisis Suits have to bring special weapon-spam up to 11. Keep them as is, lower points and add some new weapons, but don't create a unit that single-handily nullifies any bloody chance of getting into CC if you're a MEQ unit. Tau being completely helpless in melee is just as bad, but the solution is not to swing the pendulum to the other extreme.

The issue with the comparison to Melta-spam, Plasma-spam etc. is that allowing Crisis suits to take duplicate weapons lets you bring 6 of the same special weapon in the same unit on a unit that is highly manoeuvrable. Escalating the special weapons-spam is not what the game needs.

As a final note, what are these Space Marine-costed units that die in droves, and why is the solution to gun everyone down in droves, instead of addressing the fact that these units obviously aren't worth their points (and if they are, what's the issue?).

You get that the suits in question would be pushing 100 points each if allowed in the current codex. Maybe 300 points worth of suits supported by another unit with markerlights SHOULD be able to wipe those guys out. Does not seem unreasonable.

Got a minor tidbit of a rumor from a friend who runs an flgs...

Drones are attached to squads and not via drone controllers. They simply act as additional members of squads.

Could this mean drones with different weapon systems?

 Manchu wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I might actually get the WD this time.

Everyone who can't understand GW's silence policy, take note.

I don't think anyone has any trouble understanding their reasoning, a lot of us just think that reasoning is flawed. Yes, some people get excited by lack of info and as a result splurge more money come release, or silence the nagging voice and drop Real Magazine Money on a catalogue, but if it genuinely worked that way on more people than are driven away because they can't plan their purchases in advance, GW wouldn't be having to continually raise their prices far above inflation to make up for their tumbling sales volume.

GW sales are tumbling?

Also, if you can make money on price increases AND you can make money by shutting down pre-announcement information AND these are not mutually exclusive ... then why again would you not do it?

Anyway, point is, here we are, frothing at the bit on page 53 with two weeks to go. Seems to be working!

I'll be picking up the codex for reading and stuffs. I've gotten to enjoy reading them all, though I have no intention of playing the armies.