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Ok.. wasn't expecting that. Though it sounds like we might be seeing these in most of the factions.

Not how I thought it would be played. Naive I am. I guess this is a way to kill playing competitively and push people into the Narrative.
I cannot imagine playing in the Adepticon tourneys. it's was already super competitive.

Share you list with us.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
@SL:
Mechanicus: a wall of 14 robots that in "protector protocol" produce 252 S6 AP-2 1 or 2 W shots (can't remember) in a single firing phase. OH, and probably many re-rolling misses.
Tzeench: 28 lascannons fired by characters that can't be touched because they are surrounded by hundreds of brimstones.
230 some-odd orks. Try to kill that before they'll be getting off turn 1 or 2 charges.

I've played 4 games so far and I think my biggest take away is that we all need more games before it becomes apparent what's good or not. All three lists you put out have big deficiencies. Mechanicus is immobile and can't easily score objectives if you plan to sit and shoot. The Tzeentch list can't handle hordes. The Orks can't handle vehicles too well.

I think the edition is designed in a way to allow any list to be built, but the most successful generals will use take all comer (TAC) lists. You need a big thing, some tanks, some infantry and some deep strikers. Extreme lists will be out there, but if you take a TAC list, you'll at least be able to do something to them. It won't be the invincible, invisible death stars of yesteryear.

Sill with no double shooting it 126 shots at S6 -2AP
The other two are mass hoards with fearless morale.

So much for balance. Scared to think what a competitive Tau list will be able to field.

@SL: Here is my review of my army. Not a battle report, this was just a grading review based on individual performance. I had 2 5-man units of rangers but only 1 had the arquebii. Had 3 units of vanguard with 2 plasmas each.

Just finished my first game of 8th tonight, thought I'd share some observations to add to the collective.

2k pts vs. ork horde... 60 storm boys, 60 boys, some artillery and characters. We played end-to-end specifically because my opponent wanted to see how he'd fare having to cross the table. We both made mistakes (tactical and rules-wise) but it was a good learning experience. Please keep in mind these are my impressions from one game... I don't pretend that this is a definitive analysis.

Canticles: Not as good as last time around, but still useful. B
HQ: Cawl - Unbelieveable tank with the ability to dish out damage. A
HQ: TPD - Frankly I think his "aura" and healing ability make him worth his points. B
TP: 5-man ranger squad w/ two arquebii. God yes. A
TP: 5-man vanguard squads w/ 2 plasmas. Worked fine as screens and fire support. I overcharged the heck out of the plasmas for the 2+ to wound the orks... I like them. B
TP: Kataphron destroyers (grav) - They got charged early, but I thought they did fine until then. B
EL: datasmith - a must have, not particularly effective, but for what he does to make the robots better. B
EL: Infiltrators - gunned down by artillery, so no information really.
FA: Dragoon w/ tazer - underwhelming. C
FA: Ballistari w/ TL Cognis lascannons - very useful. A
HV: Dakkabots - A (no surprise there)
HV: Icarus Dunecrawler - it was OK. Probably not the best match-up for it. Might have just been my dice rolls. B-
HV: Neutron Dunecrawler - see above. B-

Overall it wasn't a bad list & I did manage to squeak out a narrow victory, though we only got to turn 3. I have some ideas I'd like to try but I need some more models first.

Where I'm going...

1) Giving the second squad of rangers Arquebii
2) Dropping Vanguard & Dragoon
3) Changing both Dunecrawlers to Neutron lasers for some AV punch (figuring most armies will have at least some vehicles
4) Adding a patrol? detachment of one commissar and 20 conscripts to serve as bubblewrap.

Going to use some 30k covenant adsecularis as my conscripts (figure they're low-level admech... barely more than servitors... should be a good proxy) and will use a tech priest as the commissar.

I'm sort of surprised that people are down on Orks having their conditional Fearless rules back. The Ork players are all super pumped about it, since, unlike most other races, the VAST majority of Ork units have 7 Ld- that is, they fail leadership checks literally half the time without extenuating rules. This is always just exacerbated by the various 'combat casualties' rules that further penalize Ld checks based on lost models- when you have a ton of throw-away models, losing 10 of them isn't a big deal in terms of damage dealt, but when that then gives you a -10 on a stat of 7, which then causes the unit to auto-lose...

And yet people never seemed to complain about the Marines' ability to reroll all the things, and can have their cake and eat it too with ATSKNF.

8th seems to have balanced... just about everything, via point costs and removing the upper limits on stats.

It's not orks per se, I'm disappointed that *anything* is fearless. That was a bad 7th edition mechanic that should have been dropped.

And if you've never heard anyone complain about ATSKNF, you haven't been listening very hard.

Had 3 games yesterday at the shop to celebrate the launching of 8th. Had basically the same admech army that I posted a while ago though I added two arquebii to the second ranger squad and dropped all the plasmas from the vanguard. Please note my opponents are all friends of mine so we weren't trying to slaughter each other.

Game 1: Vs a non-optimized foot slogging ork army. Game lasted 4 turns, my opponent just couldn't get through my shooting to reach combat. There are at least 3 ways for orks to do that, he just hasn't made the appropriate adjustments in list list. So victory, but very frustrating for my opponent. (bad game in my book)

Game 2: Different friend playing yenari dark eldar... sort of. Since I had a shooty list, he took a shooty list which was basically a mix of DE vehicles and a couple of eldar flyers. He went first, because my opponents always have less units than I do. In his first shooting phase he wiped out half my army (and I mean that literally)... and it wasn't the bad half. We called it at the end of his shooting phase. (bad game in my book)

Game 3: We were running out of time so the Eldar player and I re-set at 1k points. He dumbed-down his army a lot and played straight DE. Game lasted until T4 but there was never any doubt who was going to win as there were objectives involved. While most of both of our armies were destroyed, he had my last couple of units backed into a corner in assault & his highly mobile units could leave combat at any time to go sit on objectives if they didn't want to table me (which they would have eventually). (i dunno... does that qualify as a "good game"??)



I'll be honest... I see over on the admech tactical blog that people are having great success with their armies and talking about how great they're performing. All I can think of is that they're playing vs. sub-standard lists/opponents. I don't' see it. I mean my AdMech list is "solid", but if you want to play the tournament scene in a competitive area like mine... you're going to be fodder. Knights are supposed to be hot stuff at the moment, so I'll work one of those in and see how that changes the dynamic as well as trying some IG conscripts as a dirt-cheap screening unit. That being said, I don't think either of these is going to suddenly flip the switch on the army... but I'll give them a try and see if it helps. At worst... I think AdMech might be a good part of some pan-Imperial army... By no means am I saying that they suck... but I am starting to lean towards non-competitive. Until I complete the knight experiment however, any kind of judgement like that would be foolish.

Putting Admech aside for the moment... these are some observations based on my 4 games and discussing many other games that my friends have had around me at the store.
- games seem to end by turn 3 or 4 usually... not because of fulfilling some objective but because one side is pretty well wiped out by then
- severe army mismatches as all levels *seem* to be more likely than before... leading to less fun for someone (if you care about that kind of thing)
- new mechanics are solid & it plays more like a board game in some ways (don't ask me to give examples, I can't... that's just the way it feels to me). Note: I mean this as a good thing.
- power levels of top lists are going to be sky-high... I suppose that's nothing new
- competitive gamers should have a ball with this system
- you should assume that you're going to be charged in T1, if you're facing a correctly built assault army (orks, nids, blood angels) you can assume many units will be attempting assaults on T1 and their army will be in full assault with you by T2.

I guess that's all for now. Keep in mind these are just my opinions and subject to change as time goes on. Get out there... do your own thing... report back. By all means don't make any decisions based on my comments.

That's the main problem I have with this system currently. It's all good having objectives and victory points for Matched Play, but everything dies so easily now that they are pointless - there's no incentive to play the objective. You may as well just go for the most destructive lists and hope you destroy your opponent before they do the same to you. That's why it isn't designed to be a competitive game (at least I think, something is seriously wrong if competitive was at the top of the priority list while making this Ed like it is), since less serious games always seem to be much more fun in this new edition.

The worst thing is that despite GW's claim, not every army is close equal. Dark Eldar, 'nids and Necrons (I really hate Necrons are still good, but that's beside the point) are a cut above the rest, although I admit it isn't nearly as bad as 7th range of tiers. Now I understand that making 15+ armies equally good on the table is basically impossible, but at least make them all relatively close to the same level.

Hey guys, I'm looking for a crap-ton of cheap guardsmen with las rifles. This is an experiment and I have no way of knowing if it's going to work or not... so I can't pay a lot for them. But if you've got some plastic guardsmen lying around that you don't think you'll every use. I'm interested. Solar_lion is trying to wrangle some for me but in case that falls through, or doesn't produce enough (I need 100)... I thought I'd put a request out to the general community.

PM me if you've got something please. Doesn't matter what condition (painted/unpainted, built/unbuilt), I'm going to re-paint them all in the end. OH... I do have a bunch of stuff I could trade I suppose, if you'd rather that.

Thanks!

Thanks for the observations. I'm still waiting on my GW order.
Looking forward to playing my first game of the 8th.

In spite of my post... it's NOT a bad game. Actually I rather like it. But the mass proliferation of T1 and 2 charges and the overall deadliness of the game makes it a largely non-strategic exercise. It's a race to see who-kills-who-first... which seems to be decided in 4 turns or less (as WarbossDakka commented).

Is that better??? Ehhhhhhmmmm... I don't know yet. It's different. As with 7th, I think players will have to take responsibility for doing the work before-hand to make sure you get a fun and interesting game. Set up your matches ahead of times, discuss terms, share lists (I do this all the time). Without that kind of prep... I'm not sure how you can assume that you can show up blind for a game against an unknown opponent and reasonably expect that you'll have a competitive (small "c"), exciting match. God help the tournament organizers... I have no idea how they'll handle this.

Just thought I would chime in on 8th edition games, so far I have played 3 games vs the same ork opponent. We used power points for first 2 games in which he wiped me out to the man in each game after 3 turns. Part of this was poor deployment on my part and some gawd awful rolls, even he commented on how many ones I rolled Our last game we used the points system (after finding he had 200 more points than me) and we made some adjustments. The third game was closer but not being able to make him lose morale meant I was locked in and whittled down slowly over time. My take away is that Orks in battlewagons and on bikes are very good now.

I talked to a friend who was at a tourney in Chicago, at which he and another player from our group tied for first place. That should tell you how good our local list builders are and what type of meta Gitz and I play in. My friend ran an all Tzeentch list that literally cannot lose, Brimstone horrors, Heralds, LoC , Knight and the Changeling. It can throw out an insane amount of smites and the army is a 4++ with -1 to be hit. He is going to change things up and add Magnus and another Knight. Magnus has a threat bubble of about 48 inches turn one for CC. The other player ran a Harly list with the Yncarne not sure how it works but it does. The Tzeentch player said there were several good builds that worked well, Scions with tauroxes with 4 assassins was a list that impressed, he feels that a few RAW rules can be FAQed and would make the game more balanced.

Overall I think that Gitz is right, setting up games maybe more important for a fun experience. Dropping in for a game and hoping everyone is thinking along the lines hey I can bring what I want and it will be a good game will be in for a rude surprise. I do like the game mechanics of 8th over 7th.

Yorkright...How did Commander and Drone Spam due at the tournie . Personally I like the base rule set for 8th. Nice and simple. The competitive execution of the indices both within and outside the codex is horrible, especially for Tau, but then these are stop gaps and points will be subject to change as time goes on.

 Gitsplitta wrote:
Hey guys, I'm looking for a crap-ton of cheap guardsmen with las rifles. This is an experiment ...

Are you planning to see how long it takes to kill a Landraider?

Sigh....

Lol

Finally had an interesting game of 8th Edition last night. Local store where 40k had been killed dead by 6th finally had enough people excited by 8th that they got a little escalation league going. 500 points to start so Thing 2 and I went over for a game.

Thing 2 had a game vs. a friend of mine who was playing Tzeench/T-sons but who luckily also runs Nids.... so he basically helped Thing 2 not only with how to play 8th but with how to run his Nids. They had a really close, back-and-forth game and tied in the end.

I played another friend who was sporting Tau... first time I've played them in 8th.

AdMech (me):
HQ: Tech Priest Dominus (stock)
TP: 5 rangers w/ 2 arquebusses
TP: 5 vanguard w/ 2 plasma calivers
HV: dunecrawler w/ Icarus array

Tau:
HQ: character in suit w/ nasty weapons
... and I don't know the classifications of anything else...
6 somewhat special infantry (not pathfinders)
devilfish
3 suits with mostly burst cannons I think


We played a non-maelstrom mission with two objectives on the table (in our deployment zones), each worth 3 points + the standard secondaries (FB, LB & STW). Quarters deployment. He dropped the drones off the devilfish to secure his objective behind a wall, I castled up over my objective. He went first of course because AdMech always goes last (without a knight anyway). His 4 suits dropped and wiped out my rangers earning him first blood. What ensued was basically a battle between my remaining troops and his 4 suits. When all was said and done, he had his two drones on his objective and a 7/12 (damaged) devilfish left. I had my tech priest dominus and the dune crawler, both undamaged thanks to the tech priest's repair abilities, on my objective. He had first blood and linebreaker, I had slay the warlord. Game ended on T5 for a 5/4 Tau victory. Had it gone on I should have been able to take out the devilfish for a tie. Still, it was the first fun, close game I've had. Funny that it should be with such a small point value... usually such games tend to be horribly one-sided, but with 8th, low point values really prevents you from spamming which is one of the biggest failings of the current system.

If the wife lets me I'll swing over there tonight with a slightly different build and see how things go (if I can find a game).

Sounds like fun. Got to get a game myself one of these days...

Low points games are usually better in my experience. From past editions and AOS, at least. You can't take anything too obscene and medium things feel special again.

Looking forward to seeing some more stuff on your plog! Preferably battle shots or new cool things

The infantry was probably breachers. 2 shot variable strength and AP weapons. Sweat spot is 5" w S6 AP-2, but at 10" they are S5 SP-1.

Glad you both had fun games after your first few. It certainly sounds like starting small is a good way to avoid people overloading on tricky units

I really hope this is the start of 8th picking up for you!

Well, I'll fill you in. After this nice Tau game I had two games vs players that I don't think had won a game yet in the league. They both crushed me... basically with one figure each. Pasque in the first case, a single contemptor dread in the second. It sucked. I was very unhappy and ready to shelve the AdMech for the time being. I had one more idea though so yesterday I changed my list & played a game with a friend who's been running a Nid list that's pretty strong and has been having it's way with everyone else's armies.

The new build worked, and I won the game. I'm sure it wasn't too exciting for Brian as I just backed up and kept shooting, but given our two armies there really wasn't anything else I could do. That being said, I finally figured out a mobile (slow, but at least it can move and shoot) force that I can use to build on as the point values slowly increase in the league.

Second game vs. Brian (good player, good army, not a d***, thus great person to try things out on), I used a little kommando list I'd put together. Worked fine. Happy with the experiment. I may actually start painting some orks again.

WHHAAAaaa!!!!

Orks!

Sounds likely you're feeling slightly more positive, at least.

Since I've begun fooling around with my orks... specifically with Snickgrot and his Red Skull Kommandoz, I thought I'd add a little modification to the figures (not my work, part of a very old purchase) to make them fit the part. They don't have a fancy paint job but they look very different from my Bad Moons, thus fit the role nicely as coming from another clan (even if they aren't particularly painted in the colors of that clan). It's amazing to me how the facial features of the Black Reach orks make a perfect skull. I'm sure that wasn't an accident.



I've got a second unit to do, though I'm short 5 guys. Luckily I have several of the original metal kommandoz. They're a bit small but they'll fit the role fine. Funny thing is I'm going to have to "paint down" to get them to match the rest. At least they should go fast... that works for me. I think they'll all look fine once the basing is done.

Here's an idea if you want to really differentiate them and dirty them up. try using a wash of Typhus corrosion over the pants and boots and then use your finger to wipe it off a bit, it gives a nice dusty muted look, you can then add a small shade of nuln oil in the recess to give it some Ooomph! :-)

I'll look into it Damo, thanks.

No probs, for things like bases and vehicles I've found that using your fingers to get a bit messy can give you some sweet control over the effects with inks and technical paints, it's how i blended the yellow on my Landraider! without a brush!

It's always about the basing isn't it. Glad you are getting some games in, my bet is your orcs are going to be more fun to play than the Ad mech. Hoping we can get a game in soon, my inquisitor is still missing.