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On a more on-topic note, outside of the corporation (which are ready build for IG)... what exactly is the target market for Warpath?

People like the idea of hrud and squats, but they dont' have rules, and counts only goes so far. The fact that the squats and orks were just slapdash conversions from the fantasy models limits their utility even further. So, their big sci-fi release included an army that can't be used in 40k, and one that has the cheapest GW models available (AoBR orks).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:Who else is doing Space Rats these days?

Well, this is another great point.

I think that people see what they want to see, particualrly with things like "influence." It's easy to point out ways a mantic model is similar, or distinct, from a GW one.

It's entirely subjective if that makes it a "knock off" or the natural result of shared influences.

I mean, did the Stone Temple Pilots rip off Pearl Jam, or did they both listen to a lot of the same stuff before they wrote their own music?

The other problem I have is that, for a cheap knockoff company, Mantic isn't actually all that cheap. I could get 20 GW Cadian Guardsmen for 58 USD (this is also considered one of GW's worst deals), or I could get 20 Mantic Corporation troopers for 45 USD? That sounds more or less okay until you realize that the GW stuff can trivially be found at a 20% discount, making the Mantic guys only slightly less expensive. If you're willing to use the simple push-fit Cadians, you can get 20 Cadians for 33 dollars (cheaper than Mantic without a discount), or go with three of those sets plus a Command box for special weapon options for 49.75-- only slightly more expensive, and easily cheaper with discount!

Similarly, Mantic Corporation heavy weapon teams compare somewhat unfavorably to GW Imperial Guard ones-- with Mantic, you pay 27.49 USD; with GW 38.75 USD (31 with discount), and the GW kits come with 5 different weapon options (3 of which can be assembled from each heavy weapon sprue if you have extra Guardsmen) to the Mantic kits' 2 weapons.

I'm not a great fan of the GW Cadians, but it seems hard to justify using the Mantic Corporation guys as cheap replacements for them.

Alpharius wrote:Who else is doing Space Rats these days?

Games Workshop. These are just Clan Skyre skaven with bad posture.

Fetterkey wrote:The other problem I have is that, for a cheap knockoff company, Mantic isn't actually all that cheap. I could get 20 GW Cadian Guardsmen for 58 USD (this is also considered one of GW's worst deals), or I could get 20 Mantic Corporation troopers for 45 USD? That sounds more or less okay until you realize that the GW stuff can trivially be found at a 20% discount, making the Mantic guys only slightly less expensive. If you're willing to use the simple push-fit Cadians, you can get 20 Cadians for 33 dollars (cheaper than Mantic without a discount), or go with three of those sets plus a Command box for special weapon options for 49.75-- only slightly more expensive, and easily cheaper with discount!

Similarly, Mantic Corporation heavy weapon teams compare somewhat unfavorably to GW Imperial Guard ones-- with Mantic, you pay 27.49 USD; with GW 38.75 USD (31 with discount), and the GW kits come with 5 different weapon options (3 of which can be assembled from each heavy weapon sprue if you have extra Guardsmen) to the Mantic kits' 2 weapons.

I'm not a great fan of the GW Cadians, but it seems hard to justify using the Mantic Corporation guys as cheap replacements for them.

http://www.thewarstore.com/product71575.html

20 Mantic Corp Troopers for $36 (20% off at Warstore) versus $46 for 20 Cadians (also 20% off). That's a $10 difference for every 20 troops you field when you compare apples to apples.

I, for one, prefer the mantic troopers to the plastic cadians, at least the rank and file cadians. Factor in that the boxes come with meltas, and they're a pretty decent way to build a good looking higher tech IG force.

So, interestingly enough, the least cheap force also happens to be the least clearly a "knock off."

privateer4hire wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The other problem I have is that, for a cheap knockoff company, Mantic isn't actually all that cheap. I could get 20 GW Cadian Guardsmen for 58 USD (this is also considered one of GW's worst deals), or I could get 20 Mantic Corporation troopers for 45 USD? That sounds more or less okay until you realize that the GW stuff can trivially be found at a 20% discount, making the Mantic guys only slightly less expensive. If you're willing to use the simple push-fit Cadians, you can get 20 Cadians for 33 dollars (cheaper than Mantic without a discount), or go with three of those sets plus a Command box for special weapon options for 49.75-- only slightly more expensive, and easily cheaper with discount!

Similarly, Mantic Corporation heavy weapon teams compare somewhat unfavorably to GW Imperial Guard ones-- with Mantic, you pay 27.49 USD; with GW 38.75 USD (31 with discount), and the GW kits come with 5 different weapon options (3 of which can be assembled from each heavy weapon sprue if you have extra Guardsmen) to the Mantic kits' 2 weapons.

I'm not a great fan of the GW Cadians, but it seems hard to justify using the Mantic Corporation guys as cheap replacements for them.

http://www.thewarstore.com/product71575.html

20 Mantic Corp Troopers for $36 (20% off at Warstore) versus $46 for 20 Cadians (also 20% off). That's a $10 difference for every 20 troops you field when you compare apples to apples.

Good find. With the discount, the Mantic guys are indeed cheaper, though the push-fit Cadians are still going to beat them out. That said, I think there are people who would say that Mantic guys look better than push-fit Cadians (though I'm not one of them), so perhaps there's a market there after all.

Or you can get 24 Marines from Defiance for $24 (if they're ever released).

http://www.thewarstore.com/product70701.html

Fetterkey wrote:

Good find. With the discount, the Mantic guys are indeed cheaper, though the push-fit Cadians are still going to beat them out. That said, I think there are people who would say that Mantic guys look better than push-fit Cadians (though I'm not one of them), so perhaps there's a market there after all.

Looking below, I would say vast majority of people would say the Corporation mini is a better sculpt, both in terms of detail and accurate proportion. I think it speaks volumes that you can buy it cheaper than the GW ones, considering the sprue for the latter must be a decade old now and I think is in desperate need of an update.





It would be nice if this forum had a dedicated Mantic sub-forum, in the same way as a certain other forum (which incidentally is where I have started to go to discuss Mantic stuff). The problem is this thread is meant for News & Rumour, I posted what I thought was a quite interesting quote from the 8th race sculptors, and it's been completely blown over by people commenting 'I like Mantic because.. ' 'I dislike because... ' after Fetterkey posted here (not to criticize you in particular Fetterkey, it happens all the time in this thread, I think because of a lack of any kind of Mantic focus elsewhere on the forum).

And yes, I realise I have just contributed to this problem by posting pictures comparing GW and Mantic humans

Anyway, might be worthwhile mentioning on the suggestions page, to have a dedicated sub-forum for Mantic.

Those do indeed look way better... but I don't think those the actual Corporation models that are being sold, but rather production greens at a substantially larger scale!

If you compare those to the actual painted shots of Corporation troopers on the Mantic website, it's clear that they aren't what you actually get-- the greens you posted look to be significantly more detailed and better-proportioned than the actual models.

I really think that you cannot bring something totally new to a rat miniatures, well not on a 20 mm mini.

Fetterkey wrote:Those do indeed look way better... but I don't think those the actual Corporation models that are being sold, but rather production greens at a substantially larger scale!

You must be THIS tall to ride the roller coaster...

Right-- so those are ~35mm, whereas Mantic's normal miniatures are purportedly "true 28mm."

Fetterkey wrote:Right-- so those are ~35mm, whereas Mantic's normal miniatures are purportedly "true 28mm."

You are including the base.

lord marcus wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Right-- so those are ~35mm, whereas Mantic's normal miniatures are purportedly "true 28mm."

You are including the base.

The ruler is on the base...

lord marcus wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Right-- so those are ~35mm, whereas Mantic's normal miniatures are purportedly "true 28mm."

You are including the base.

Not only is the ruler on the base (and hence the base is *not* included), the base would only add a few mm at most.

The height in mm. is from the feet to the EYES of the models. So these are 30 mm.

Hoarmurel wrote:The height in mm. is from the feet to the EYES of the models. So these are 30 mm.

But some people measure from the feet to the top of the head

Others measure from the feet to the top of the hat

Arent standards of measurements awesome

Alpharius wrote:Who else is doing Space Rats these days?

Ah! That was so cuttingly logical I think I'm bleeding...

As far as i know, the way of measurement i said before is the used by the companies and sculptors... But i can be wrong of course.

Hoarmurel wrote:As far as i know, the way of measurement i said before is the used by the companies and sculptors... But i can be wrong of course.

It depends on the company and the sculptor.

Cyporiean wrote:

Hoarmurel wrote:As far as i know, the way of measurement i said before is the used by the companies and sculptors... But i can be wrong of course.

It depends on the company and the sculptor.

Yeah, it's fairly arbitrary if they mean to eyes or top of head, then add "heroic" scale and it means "Somewhere below 40mm... I think... probably. ::nods:: Definitely probably." That's why ranges with freelance sculptors get occasional giants, midgets, etc.

But heroic proportions are a good way to avoid having to properly sculpt a human.

The height in mm. is from the feet to the EYES of the models. So these are 30 mm.

Yes, I believe technically this is the description of scale.

Cyporiean wrote:

lord marcus wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Right-- so those are ~35mm, whereas Mantic's normal miniatures are purportedly "true 28mm."

You are including the base.

The ruler is on the base...

Right, but GW miniatures haven't been 28mm since the days of Rogue Trader. Most stuff these days is more like 30-32mm.

TBH, with 'heroic scale' I can see both the upside and the downside to it. On the one hand, it does help draw the eye to the more important areas of the model, the face and (in the case of wargaming) hands and weapon. Personally, I think Mantic have got it just about right. While it doesn't have anatomically correct proportions like an Infinity miniature (see the pic above, models on the right), they are not as extreme as say the example with the Cadian.

So has anyone got any idea how long it's going to be before we see more of the vermeen army's stuff, not 100% impressed with the two there've show so far but the rest of the range might be better.

Polonius wrote:On a more on-topic note, outside of the corporation (which are ready build for IG)... what exactly is the target market for Warpath?

People like the idea of hrud and squats, but they dont' have rules, and counts only goes so far. The fact that the squats and orks were just slapdash conversions from the fantasy models limits their utility even further. So, their big sci-fi release included an army that can't be used in 40k, and one that has the cheapest GW models available (AoBR orks).

Completely agree, they haven't made the best of choices if the intent was to actually make rip-off 40k models. You could extend this to the IoB clanrats too. Add some guns to those and you have much cheaper Veer-Myn than what Mantic is making.


Guard vs. Tyranids should have been the primary target for any attempt at successfully selling a heaping pile of models to 40k players.

Those 2 armies are:

- Horde armies,
- In need of new models from GW.
- Have had their prices jacked to crazy levels by GW.
- Aren't available in any starter sets.
- Are largely free-for-alls when it comes to IP. Sci-fi humans, and space insect-aliens. Both generic, public domain concepts that had already been done to death long before GW existed.

Although that said, I will defend the Forgefathers are an excellent take on the dwarfs in space concept. Throw the fantasy legs and heads in the trash and the rest of it looks brilliant, far better than anything GW ever produced for their squat range.

The Forgefathers now have 2 very nice-looking units (stormrage veterans and drakkarim) which contain no fantasy parts, and one nice-looking vehicle. Even the steel warriors have enough sci-fi heads on the sprue to allow you to throw away both the goggles and the stupid fugly-looking fantasy heads that they're supposed to be attached to, which just leaves the legs with their clown shoes and swords as the problem, as far as looking like fantasy models goes.

Mantic derped on the basic infantry, but the rest of it is bloody excellent!

Marauders have no infantry that isn't fantasy based and one average-looking vehicle. They are definitely a rush-job, and the army just isn't appealing, AoBR exists if you want cheap 40k orks.

Mantic would have been much better off not bothering with the Marauders, and instead waiting an additional 4 months to release Warpath with an awesomely well-done Corporation vs. Forgefathers boxset with *zero* fantasy bits, and a single, well-done plastic sprue for each race's basic infantry.

It seems to me that Mantic make a lot of their production decisions based on how much cash they have in the piggy bank/ a need to "get stuff out there" at the time rather than what would actually make the most sense in the long run.

I'd love to see a Mantic forum on here, but I don't think there are enough people on Dakka who are even slightly interested enough in Mantic to make it worth having. Plus, it would only end up as an easy trolling target for GW fanboys, much like this thread often becomes.

scarletsquig wrote:far better than anything GW ever produced for their squat range.

Which honestly isnt that hard considering the squats were from an age of silliness, nearly 25 years ago

^ Yeah, that's pretty much stating the obvious. I don't disagree with you there.

Was just pointing out that:

"Fantasy legs on the steel warriors unit sucks"

Is not equal to:

"Every single model in the entire Forgefather model range sucks".

In fact, I hold the opinion that the fantasy components are in fact, the *only* thing that sucks about them in terms of sculpting quality specifically.

Polonius wrote:On a more on-topic note, outside of the corporation (which are ready build for IG)... what exactly is the target market for Warpath?

People who like every project that GW dropped in the 80s and early 90s for not being commercial enough

Again, I find myself nodding along to Scarletsquig's post. Nicely articulated, mate.

I am disappointed by the veer-myn (stupid name). I was hoping for something really off the wall for these guys, maybe some sort of AI race, or something? Cyborgs? Fleshy primitives hi-jacked by malevolent nanobots? Something better than mutant space rat obvious skaven rip offs, anyhow. I definitely won't buy any of these. So far, for Warpath, we have:
Forgefathers: Okay, I loved Squats when I started 40K and love Dwarves in general, so I am pro. Steel Warriors not that exciting, but with the rules being out there, I am tempted to put together a small force using the kits mantic have currently put out with some plastic AoW berserkers converted up to look more techy, and some home made vehicles with big drills and stuff on them. So, a win for mantic.
Marauders: These do not really excite me at all. I am an Ork player (durr) and I have a large army, nothing that mantic has released so far gets even near the GW plastics for me.
Loss for mantic.
Corporation: These guys are pretty sweet. I am definitely keeping my eye on them. I would have preferred something a bit more Fallout-esque, but hey, what they've done is actually pretty damn nice. Win for mantic.
Veer-myn: Well, I dislike the concept, the minis do nothing for me, and I don't see it going anywhere exciting. Space rats. On ships. Why is this an army? Where's the galactic space opera drama with...space rats? I can hardly see a colony going "OH NO, SPACE RATS!". No. Definitely loss.

So far, mantic are 2-2 for me. The next release had better be stronger or I will not be optimistic for the long term survival of the game. I'm hoping the Plague and the Bugs really blow me out of the water.