Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Manchu wrote:When did he submit "Trial of the Mantis Warriors"? What are these rumors about the Necron fluff? Where do you people get all of this information?

I speak with authors at events Screw talking to the studio, Abnett's far more amusing when you get him in a chatty mood!

And from what I recall, "Trial of the Mantis Warriors" was submitted for publication in 2007-2008ish. Because of the length of it and the lack of other appropriate short stories, it was shelved.

That happens with short stories, wherein they hold them to either publish as event "exclusives" or save them for anthologies as filler.

Anyways, no Black Library author has written background for the codexes(notable exception being Gav Thorpe, who was working in the rules section before trying his hand at writing background pieces and Andy Hoare, who works on rules every so often now--but both possess a large degree of seniority in the GW Studio Staff now). So that flatout debunks that either way.

There is a Necron related book coming out in December, however, so that may be where the confusion is coming from. Written by Steve Lyons though.

Death Korps of Krieg v. Necrons.

Too little sleep=me confusing Steve Parker with Steve Lyons. Blargh. Sorry Steves.

Wasn't the new Deathwatch game also written by C.S. Goto?

Necrosis wrote:You still can't prove that he is currently not employed. You failed to provide such evidence.

And you've not provided any evidence of him being employed, outside of a short story that was slated to be published in a PDF form before it was shelved.

It's a two way street.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necrosis wrote:Wasn't the new Deathwatch game also written by C.S. Goto?

Fantasy Flight Games has no open employment records that I can view, but considering there's no C.S. Goto on their official forums blabbering incoherently about surfing on a Falcon--I'm going to say no.

Well then we have to agree to disagree.

Manchu wrote:And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

Manchu wrote:And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

The sister made a stupid mistake, which cost them their lives. That's all it is.

Oh no, that implies there's no evidence in any of the situations I've pointed out.

The fact that his website is bare of any material relating to his recent short story being published, any interviews, event appearances, and the fact that the Dawn of War II novelization he at one point bragged about getting to do never happened(although there is going to be a follow-up novel, picking up where events left off--NOT written by him though!) seem to be pretty conclusive evidence that he no longer has anything to do with 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Manchu wrote:And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

They got massacred for being stupid.

Simple

Which set an example for other sisters. Thus such a thing will not happen again(or at least very rarely).

It also shows the Ordo Mallues and Ordo Hereticus fight among each other during a war.

The "problem" seems to be part and parcel of their character: as staunchly loyal "nuns" they have an obligation to both serve the legitimately appointed authorities and to root out the faithless--all without having any authority to excommunicate. Similarly, an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor can excommunicate and so can an Ecclesiarchy Cardinal. What happens when they excommunicate one another?

It would result in both their armies fighting each other. Yet if they both send a signal to Terra, then the Inquisitor will probably win.

@ Necrosis:

Hereticus started the infighting by forcing the Ecclesiarchy to try to claim that it was a "War of Faith", thus under the Ecclesiarchy's purview--alongside of forcing early on, the Krieg Regiments that volunteered for the campaign on Vraks, a requirement of X numbers of Guardsmen on the planet being offset by Y numbers being sent to a warzone where the Ecclesiarchy's "War of Faith" was bogged down because of their own stupidity in placing a priesthood in command, rather than allowing the Guard commanders to prosecute a war.

Once the Daemonic threat was confirmed, Hereticus tried to block the intervention of Malleus by claiming that the purview of dealing with a Traitor Archdeacon was the exclusive rights of the Ecclesiarchy, who immediately would have said that the Ordo Hereticus and their poster child would have had to be involved.

It all boils down to:
The Ecclesiarchy fethed up, royally, and tried to make a profit from it by getting a huge contingent of Death Korpsmen for a war they were royally screwing up in another sector, and in doing so they allowed a major Munitorium armsworld to fall to Heresy, and a major Daemonic incursion to happen.

Then, on top of that, the Ordo Hereticus tried to block the Ordo Malleus(who are the Ordo exclusively deemed fit to combat Daemons) from becoming involved with a halfassed argument about the Shrine on the surface being too valuable to lose to cleansing the planet from orbit(as standard procedure would've had it).

Kanluwen wrote:@ Necrosis:

Hereticus started the infighting by forcing the Ecclesiarchy to try to claim that it was a "War of Faith", thus under the Ecclesiarchy's purview--alongside of forcing early on, the Krieg Regiments that volunteered for the campaign on Vraks, a requirement of X numbers of Guardsmen on the planet being offset by Y numbers being sent to a warzone where the Ecclesiarchy's "War of Faith" was bogged down because of their own stupidity in placing a priesthood in command, rather than allowing the Guard commanders to prosecute a war.

Once the Daemonic threat was confirmed, Hereticus tried to block the intervention of Malleus by claiming that the purview of dealing with a Traitor Archdeacon was the exclusive rights of the Ecclesiarchy, who immediately would have said that the Ordo Hereticus and their poster child would have had to be involved.

It all boils down to:
The Ecclesiarchy fethed up, royally, and tried to make a profit from it by getting a huge contingent of Death Korpsmen for a war they were royally screwing up in another sector, and in doing so they allowed a major Munitorium armsworld to fall to Heresy, and a major Daemonic incursion to happen.

Then, on top of that, the Ordo Hereticus tried to block the Ordo Malleus(who are the Ordo exclusively deemed fit to combat Daemons) from becoming involved with a halfassed argument about the Shrine on the surface being too valuable to lose to cleansing the planet from orbit(as standard procedure would've had it).

It was the Cardinal who attempted to say it was a war of faith not the Hereticus. They attempted to kill the Cardinal long before the siege even began. The Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy are two different organizations, they don't get to choose each other members or force each other to do things (unless an Inquisitor tells you do help him do something). The Ordo Hereticus was also trying to kill the traitors which is what they are responsible for. The thing is, in the end this shows that the two factions (daemon hunters and witch hunters) do not get along.

You've got the timeline mixed up.

After the Cardinal sent away the people there to collect taxes, the Ordo Hereticus sent in the Vindicare assassin.
One of the people who even took a bullet for the Cardinal was a member of the Cardinal's Order of the Argent Shroud contingent.

The Ecclesiarchy was already involved in a "War of Faith". Which is where the part about the Korps assigned by the Munitorium being split up or the Ecclesiarchy would work to block the deployment and feth up the campaign comes into play. The Ordo Hereticus, which maintains very close ties with the Ecclesiarchy due to the sharing of the Adeptas Sororitas and the general zealous nature of the Witchhunters(almost like they got the name for a reason...), pushed for the Ecclesiarchy to maintain control and purge everything to be replaced with a population transplanted from elsewhere.

The Ordo Hereticus does not control the Ecclesiarchy, they do use sisters but they do not control the Ecclesiarchy. Also where does it say one of the memeber who took the bullet was a member of the Argent Shroud. Yet my main point is that they two faction (daemon hunters and witch hunter) do fight among themselves and do get along well.

The Ordo Hereticus does not have to "control" the Ecclesiarchy--but each has their hands in the others inner workings. It's, again, a case of where the two overlap to the point of being one entity when they should be completely separate. It's as if the Catholic Church were dictating the policy of US armed forces operating in the Middle East, because a few members of the higher-ups in the armed forces are Catholic.

I'm not sure how this is that difficult to comprehend.

I think that if the Sisters were to be in the position of either siding with a Cardinal excommunicating an Inquisitor or an Inquisitor excommunicating a Cardinal, they would--all other things being equal--fall into line with the Inquisitor and go after the Cardinal. This should point out that Adpeta Sororitas is not merely the running dog of the Ecclesiarchy. Although their interests may coincide with the local Ministorum's most of the time, they aren't just a sword wielded by the sector's Cardinal. Nor are they just a sword wielded by Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors (well, no more so than a Guard regiment, a Space Marine Chapter, or whoever else an Inquisitor calls upon). Moreover, if an Inquisitor was decreed excommunicate traitoris by his/her sector Conclave (just using the DH organization here for simplicity's sake), the Sisters would be obliged to turn their fury upon him/her.

Unlike Adeptus Astartes chapters, Adepta Soroitas does not have the luxury of picking its own enemies. And unlike IG regiments, the potential enemies of Adepta Sororitas are not always obvious. That's a pretty unique situation that I think effectively kills previous arguments about Sisters having no reason to deploy against anything besides a traitor Guard army (and therefore there ought to be LotD book before a Sisters book).

The thing is that it was the Cardinal who declared the war of faith. It was the Ordo Hereticus who tried to kill him and stood in his way during his rise to power. They made that very clear in the siege of vrak book.

Well, that's not entirely true Manchu.

Imperial Guard regiments have been led astray by corrupted priesthood and officers, then deployed against loyalist forces without ever knowing that they're not really doing The Emperor's work.

It all depends on how the Guard regiment's society worked. Was the officer corps nobility who were to be unquestioned? Things like that factor in when a Guard regiment goes traitor.

Kanluwen wrote:It's as if the Catholic Church were dictating the policy of US armed forces operating in the Middle East, because a few members of the higher-ups in the armed forces are Catholic.

I think that's a pretty poor example. In what sense does the US have it's hands in the Church here? What this metaphor actually illustrates is a more accurate concept of the relationship between the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. Namely, Ordo Hereticus may have great albeit indirect influence over the Ministorum but the clergy right up to the Ecclesiarch himself has no direct and probably very little to no indirect influence over Ordo Hereticus.

Necrosis wrote:The thing is that it was the Cardinal who declared the war of faith. It was the Ordo Hereticus who tried to kill him and stood in his way during his rise to power. They made that very clear in the siege of vrak book.

Again:
Previously ongoing War of Faith.

Had nothing to do with Vraks or the Cardinal.

It was part of the requirement for the Ecclesiarchy to vote in favor of deploying the Krieg regiments to Vraks.
Once it came down to the Hereticus prospect or Rex, the Ecclesiarchy pulled their support from the Hereticus Inquisitor because Rex played the politics and gave over a tithe of the Krieg regiments that were being earmarked for the campaign on Vraks--to the Ecclesiarchy in another warzone, wherein the Ecclesiarchy was already active in a War of Faith.

That had nothing to do with the Cardinal, Vraks, Rex, or anything of that nature. We never really find out what it's about, other than it's going on.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's as if the Catholic Church were dictating the policy of US armed forces operating in the Middle East, because a few members of the higher-ups in the armed forces are Catholic.

I think that's a pretty poor example. In what sense does the US have it's hands in the Church here? What this metaphor actually illustrates is a more accurate concept of the relationship between the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. Namely, Ordo Hereticus may have great albeit indirect influence over the Ministorum but the clergy right up to the Ecclesiarch himself has no direct and probably very little to no indirect influence over Ordo Hereticus.

That was the point, it was a theoretical example. Not meant to be a serious real world example.

Can you give me a page reference Kanluwen, I think we might be mis-communicating.

It's smattered throughout all three IAs, not going to be bothered to dig 100% through all right now.

Kanluwen, I'm guessing you're referring to my comment that the IG's enemies are obvious. I meant that in the sense that, unlike the Sisters, the Guardsmen themselves have no religious commitment to combating the theological error of their enemies. The Guard fights enemy soldiers while the Sisters fight enemy ideas.

Well, again, that's not entirely true. Some Guard regiments second themselves to the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy exclusively, despite the Conclave of Nephilim's pronouncement. There are also shrineworlds that raise Guard regiments for nothing but crusades in the name of those Saints they're devoted to.

Kanluwen wrote:That was the point, it was a theoretical example. Not meant to be a serious real world example.

Obviously it was not a real world example. I wasn't criticizing it as unrealistic. My criticism is that it doesn't show that the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus are inter-penetrative but rather only that Ordo Hereticus influences the Ecclesiarchy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Some Guard regiments second themselves to the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy exclusively, despite the Conclave of Nephilim's pronouncement. There are also shrineworlds that raise Guard regiments for nothing but crusades in the name of those Saints they're devoted to.

In either situation, the regiment would still fall under the jurisdiction of the Administratum. The Inquisition never maintains its own armies. In the second situation, don't forget that any such crusade would not take precedence over Administratum priorities--elsewise this would amount to a flagrant violation of the Decree Passive.

In the beginning of the first one, the Cardinal before Seige begins declares a war of faith (as advised by several of his adviser). The Ordo Hereticus then tries to kill him with an assassin. This plot fails and allows the Cardinal to gain control of the planet. The Imperium then starts discussing on how to take the planet back. Yet the Ordo Hereticus point tried to claim that they should gain control not cause of a war of faith but because the Cardinal was a traitor and he had attack the sisters of battle. Thus he should face the punishment of the Ordo Hereticu (siege of vraks part III page 6).

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That was the point, it was a theoretical example. Not meant to be a serious real world example.

Obviously it was not a real world example. I wasn't criticizing it as unrealistic. My criticism is that it doesn't show that the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus are inter-penetrative but rather only that Ordo Hereticus influences the Ecclesiarchy.

And the Ecclesiarchy also affects the Ordo Hereticus.
Who do you think the Witchfinder in the second Eisenhorn book worked for?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Some Guard regiments second themselves to the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy exclusively, despite the Conclave of Nephilim's pronouncement. There are also shrineworlds that raise Guard regiments for nothing but crusades in the name of those Saints they're devoted to.

In either situation, the regiment would still fall under the jurisdiction of the Administratum. The Inquisition never maintains its own armies. In the second situation, don't forget that any such crusade would not take precedence over Administratum priorities--elsewise this would amount to a flagrant violation of the Decree Passive.

Kanluwen wrote:And the Ecclesiarchy also affects the Ordo Hereticus.

Don't think Tantalid is a good example of this but I may just not be remembering the character very clearly. My point, to use a very blunt example, is that while Ordo Hereticus can indirectly control the Ecclesiarchical hierarchy--by excommunicating and executing anyone they do not like--the Ecclesiarchy has no such power over the Inquisition, including Ordo Hereticus. When it comes right down to it, a Ministorum priest can say whatever he likes about an Inquisitors faith and it won't make a whit of difference. But should an Inquisitor say that priest is a heretic . . . well, so much for that priest.

Kanluwen wrote:Inquisitors do actually maintain their own armies, depending on the Inquisitor's interpretation of an Inquisitor's role.

I can only remember them using independent Imperial forces--other than their immediate retinues, of course. I suppose that an individual Inquisitor could command a retinue of army-like proportions but that's hardly the same thing as having one's own personal IG regiment or SM chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:See Manchu, but therein lies the caveat that really bothers me:
Do the Sororitas actively question the Cardinals?

Yes. Undeniably, unequivocally, yes.

Indeed, one of the main reasons why the Sisters are allowed to exist is because just as they are the army of the Ecclesiarchy, so to do they police the Ecclesiarchy. The Sisters are loyal to one being, and one being only in the end. And He does not favor the corrupt.