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They actually explained it pretty well for me in the Codex, I don't really care if they're included in the same book or not. But, more options for the SoB would be nice.

Basically went like this (not bothering to read through the entire thread as I've noticed it's more or less devloved):

M36, start of The Age of Apostasy.Vandire manipulates the Ministorum through assassination and brute force. This is also mentioned in the Tau Codex as they're discovered around here and Vandire is the reason the blue guys aren't long forgotten ash on some insignificant Imperial world. He manages to become the Ecclesiarch and High Lord of the Administratum. Basically giving him the same power as the Emperor over the Imperium. He starts fights and stuff and eventually becomes paranoid.

He discovers the world San Leor, on which is the Daughters of the Emperor. He renames them the Brides of the Emperor and makes them his bodyguards.

Meanwhile on the world of Dimmamar a sect called the Confederation of Light is formed. It is led by Sebastian Thor, who claims Vandire is a traitor. Pretty soon he gets a bunch of systems to join him, they get an army and go to fight Vandire. A warp storm interferes with the fight and becomes the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath. This destroys a bunch of Vandire's forces.

The Space Marines and Adaptus Mechanicus join Thor. The Imperial Palace is eventually under attack. Then the Adaptus Custodes get Alicia Dominica and her most trusted companions and tyake them to see the Emperor. After a while the doors open and they emerge changing the name back to Daugters of the Emperor and looking for Vandire, but really really angry.

They found him and Dominica said "You have committed the ultimate heresy. Not only have you turned your back on the Emperor and stepped from his light, you have profaned his name and almost destroyed everything he has striven to build. You have perverted and twisted the path he has laid for Mankind to tread. As your own decrees have stated, there can be no mercy for such a crime, no pity for such a criminal. I renounce your lordship, you walk in the darkness and cannot be allowed to live. Your sentence has been long overdue and it is now time for you to die". She then cuts his head off.

Thor became the Ecclesiarch and split the forces by forming the Synod Ministra on Ophelia VII. Then he changed the Ministorum back to the way it was and the Decree Passive, introduced in 288 M36. Thor disbanded the armies that Vandire had formed, but kept the Daughters of the Emperor, they became the Orders Millitant of the Adaptus Sororitas. The Inquisition was formed slightly after this so as to prevent it from happening again. The Decree Passive kind of stops the SoB from having ships and stuff, so without being attached to the Ordo Hereticus they would be stuck on whatever planet they formed on. They are the main armed forces of the Ecclesiarcy, but also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. So they have to help them if they are requested to, but are quite capable of acting as their own force.

If they want to move to another planet, they might have to request the Ordo Hereticus to request the Imperial Navy to provide them with the means of traveling to another planet though.




This of course will probably be retconned by the next codex, hopefully the SoB won't also become BFF with the Necrons like the Blood Angels


But gameplay wise, the codices were basically the same with GK/SoB thrown in to make them different from the other. I think I might actually prefer a pure SoB codex, as they would never get all the options if they had to make room for the Ordo Hereticus at the same time. If they did it would be great though.

@Necrosis-They are in power armour and use the SM armoury for the majority of their weapons. So Yeah They are MEQ, Especially when spending Faith points to up their abilities.

And the post does not contradict itself. I was dealing with the realities of GW's bias towards giving Imperium forces the lead in updates.

If GW is going to update them soon then it should be a combined codex.
If GW holds off until some balance has been restored, has expanded the other races(More than one dex per non-imperium race), and has finally kept their no new ruleset untill all codices are current then and I can see the Sisters getting their own 'dex.

Even then I feel their focus would most likely to be to narrowly focused to field an all commers list.

focusedfire wrote:There is a lot of old codices that would argue otherwise.

And Rogue Trader stuff where non-marines had it argues otherwise. But humans have always had access to bolters. Imperial Guard has them, Sisters have them, hell, even civilians have them.

Marine codices can claim whatever the hell they want, it doesn't matter when every other codex ignores it.

the last thing this game needs is another Imperium based MEQ faction.

Good thing Sisters aren't MEQ ,huh?

All your arguments for them bieng MEQ fall flat on their face when you see the statline of the common Battle Sister, which is only a single number away from being a Veteran Guardsman (that number being the 3+ save). I do believe this argument is over, thank you.

Sisters are a middle of the road army, betwen GEQ and MEQ. They aren't, and never were MEQ (maybe back in Rogue Trader, but if you want to use Rogue Trader era stuff, then technically Marines are subservient to the Sisters because the Sisters police the Marines...).

focusedfire wrote:@Necrosis-They are in power armour and use the SM armoury for the majority of their weapons. So Yeah They are MEQ, Especially when spending Faith points to up their abilities.

And the post does not contradict itself. I was dealing with the realities of GW's bias towards giving Imperium forces the lead in updates.

If GW is going to update them soon then it should be a combined codex.
If GW holds off until some balance has been restored, has expanded the other races(More than one dex per non-imperium race), and has finally kept their no new ruleset untill all codices are current then and I can see the Sisters getting their own 'dex.

Even then I feel their focus would most likely to be to narrowly focused to field an all commers list.

Your post do contradict it self more and more.
Like when you say they are MEQ cause they spend faith points.

The problem here is your penalizing sisters cause of the space marines. Which makes no sense what so ever.

They're neither MEQ or GEQ, they're a hybrid of the two. So really you could say either one if you wanted to.

Or they could just stop labeling crap and accept that the Sisters have a unique role in the 40k Tabletop, a role filled by no other army.

I never really got it as well. SoB is just as long as both of those.

Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And their are a lot of SM codices and retcanned history where the bolters are a weapon specifically designed and reserved for the SM's.

Doesn't one of the Sisters books mention something about power armour and boltguns being normally reserved for SM's but while the sisters armour is purposely designed for the sisters they were a special exception.

As to the IG, Bolters and Bolt Pistols are a status symbol and rare.

focusedfire wrote:Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And their are a lot of SM codices and retcanned history where the bolters are a weapon specifically designed and reserved for the SM's.

Doesn't one of the Sisters books mention something about power armour and boltguns being normally reserved for SM's but while the sisters armour is purposely designed for the sisters they were a special exception.

As to the IG, Bolters and Bolt Pistols are a status symbol and rare.

Saying their MEQ just cause they have bolters and power armour is wrong.
If you had a model armed with a rapid fire gun range 24 Str 4 ap 5 and an armour save of 3+ but had the T of 6 and the S of 6 and WS 6 would it be a MEQ? Hell no it wouldn't.
And no the sister codex does not mention power armour and boltguns usually being reserved for marines. Heck don't tech priest use power armour to?

Yes yes yes, but nobody cares because they're Marine codices. Marines and spank go together like fish and water.

As for bolt pistols being rare, not entirely . They're just expensive. And therefor most people won't have one-- but they're not really rare. No moreso than, say, a quality sniper rifle, a power fist, a heavy bolter, and so on. Oh, by the way, Guard armies have lots of heavy bolters. In fact, there's more bolter weaponry in the Guard than ther is in the Marines. FUN TIMES!

focusedfire wrote:Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And I quote:

Melissia wrote:All your arguments for them bieng MEQ fall flat on their face when you see the statline of the common Battle Sister, which is only a single number away from being a Veteran Guardsman (that number being the 3+ save). I do believe this argument is over, thank you.

Fun times. No matter how hard you try and argue your point, it's still wrong. Sisters are not MEQ, just as they are not GEQ. What they are is Sisters.

Don't say something stupid like "hurr durr, acts of faith!", because that's not something Marines get. Actually, referring to Acts of Faith helps prove your argument wrong, because it is something that is, both in mechanics and in gameplay style for the army, quite unique to the Sisters.

Necrosis wrote:Your post do contradict it self more and more.
Like when you say they are MEQ cause they spend faith points.

The problem here is your penalizing sisters cause of the space marines. Which makes no sense what so ever.

What is the contradiction? You claim they are not MEQ because of Physical stats and I point to where you have a mechanisme that gives you stats that are equal to or better than an SM's when you need it. I don't see a contradiction.
You can claim that they have to be rolled for but there is a wargear that lets you pass the roll automatically. Not much change of gameplay when it is an automatic shift when needed.

Your showing a martyr complex here. It is not centered on just Sisters, It is greyknights and any other power armored army that would take up space in the release schedule under the Imperium banner. The Average Armour is supposed to be Armour save 4+, Strength is supposed to be 3(Sisters can boost to 5), Toughness is supposed to be 3(Sisters have this but can grab a 2+ save when needed), Initiative 3(Sisters can jump to 5-6), WS 3 (More than half of their units have WS 4), BS 3 (Sisters are BS 4)

The point I'm making is that their are already to many Armor save 3+ armies with rediculous physical stats. There is no justification to bring out another(With the exception of if it makes GW lots of money).

focusedfire wrote:The point I'm making

The point you're FAILING to make, you mean. An army having 3+ saves in it does not make MEQ. Or else pretty much every army but Guard and Dark Eldar is MEQ, making the definition worthless. If you define "MEQ" as merely having a 3+ save, then quite frankly I have no reason to consider your argument seriously in the first place.

MEQ is more than just the armor save. Battle Sisters have more in common with Guardsmen than they do with Marines.

Your argument may not be centered on Sisters, but you're making in a thread about Sisters. Deal with it.

Yes there is a wargear (expensive one) that allows you to automatically pass ONE and only ONE act of faith.

Also what do you mean sisters can get a +2 save? Only the HQ can. Also when you boost their S their I drops to 1, funny how you forget that. Yes their elites may have WS 4 but the basic and a large portion of them have ws 3. Also Veterans Guardsmen and Storm Troopers are BS 4.

On top of that you also have a limited amount of faith points. Also Sisters are probably the most neglected army out there. They were not given an battle missions, they did not have any formations for Apoc until Apoc 2 from Forge world came out (recently). They did not get any planet strike stargems (until the white dwarf article). On top of that all their units are metal, I mean even Dark Eldar has some plastic troop choices. Dark Eldar has gotten more love then sisters. That's saying something.

Maybe they are being neglected in these publications because 5th Ed is going with the Forces of the Imperium section that is in the BRB.

That after giving one big hint GW isn't going to give away the whole book by posting rules for a new army in these other books.

Or maybe they're neglected because GW has its collective nose so far up Marneus Calgar's arse that they can smell his breath.

Melissia wrote:

focusedfire wrote:The point I'm making

The point you're FAILING to make, you mean. An army having 3+ saves in it does not make MEQ. Or else pretty much every army but Guard and Dark Eldar is MEQ, making the definition worthless. If you define "MEQ" as merely having a 3+ save, then quite frankly I have no reason to consider your argument seriously in the first place.

MEQ is more than just the armor save. Battle Sisters have more in common with Guardsmen than they do with Marines.

Your argument may not be centered on Sisters, but you're making in a thread about Sisters. Deal with it.

You failed to recognize that it is not Just Guard and Dark Eldar but also Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar also. Note I left out Tau. That is because, while the Fire Warriors are not MEQ, The Battlesuits are considered to be roughly Marine Equivolent.
The Tau are the opposite number of the SoB in that they are a middle army. Both are armies designed to fall in the middle of a circle that is comprised of SM, IG, and Eldar. Both Armies have force multiplying mechanisms that work in unique ways. But if Tau can be calle MEQ due to the Battlesuits then the Sisters with an entire army of 3+ saves and the ability to boost their physical stats should be too.

The comment about sharing more with Guardsmen than Space Marines while amusing does nothing but discredit you and what you say.

Know that your irrational hostility and innability to remember which armies are not MEQ gives me doubts as to the balance of any rules you might write for a fan-dex

Just teasing with the last line.

Edit spelling

Err, what? No, I'm fairly certain that several Eldar and Tyranid units have models with 3+ saves. Actually, Striking Scorpions have more in common with Marines than any Sisters model does. Give them T4 and they could be mistaken for an Assault Marine without jump packs. And Orks have a terminator rip-off, and are far, far closer to Marines in statline than Sisters ever were.

If you want to argue that Tau are the middle of the road, then that means Tau are similar to Sisters. In fact, Tau and Sisters actually are quite similar in design... with the exception of non-Sisters units, the Sisters tend to have mediocre assault elements. Just like the Tau. And the main anti-tank for both is a single heavy support unit. And both typically rely heavily on shooting, too. Naturally, they diverge rather differently in how they accomplish their goals, but then, they are separate armies. But even with these dramatic differences, there's still more similarities between Tau and Sisters than there are between Sisters and Marines.

And the fact that Sisters are closer to GEQ than MEQ is PRECISELY what proves that you're wrong. If the Sisters have more in common with GEQ than MEQ, then calling them MEQ is stupid.



Congratulations, kiddo, your post is wrong in almost every conceivable fashion

@Melissa-First of all, Don't call somebody who could be your dad, kiddo.

Second, Amusing how you attempted to co-opt my point about the similarity between the SoB and the Tau as your own,

Third, Even funnier is how a large portion of my post talking about the similarities between the two armies and after echoing what I said you then say that my post was wrong. If my post is wrong and you copied what I said then you would be wrong and the last line in your post would then mean I was right at which point the last line in your post would mean I was wrong but then that would mean that the last line in your post would mean that I was right,ect,ect,ect

Fourth, Do Sisters have:
A)Base leadership 7
B)Base armor Save 5+
C)Only one squad that has initiative 4
D)Extremely limited access to power weapons
E)Starting BS3
F)average WS 3

The answer is no. Sisters only share 2 qualities with Guard and one of those is able to be easily bumped to the SM level. So your statement of them being a "Butch" Guard is ludicous.

I don't see much point in continuing in this conversation if your not going to be rational or deal in reality.

Melissia wrote:As opposed to making them too much like Stormtroopers?

If you're going to advocate a different weapon because they're too similar to one faction, at least advocate s weapon that wouldn't make them too similar to another one.

You missed the point, somewhat.

People look at sisters and see female marines because they're in power armour and carry bolters. Giving them hellguns instead gives them a readily apparent difference from marines, while the better armour keeps them distinct from Stormtroopers.

Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

Bolters have been the holy weapon of the Space Marine since at least 2nd edition. That's not to say that nobody else uses them... just that Marines think they're something special.

But they're also (supposedly) expensive, tricky to maintain, and comparitively rare. Which means that while they make some sense as a weapon for Marines due to the reverence held for them, they're perhaps not so much of a sensible option for anyone else.

Aren't Sisters of Battle the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy? I assumed they worked for the Ordo Hereticus under some kind of treatise?

The Sisters of Battle hve been the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy-- the richest organization in the Imperium-- since second edition. The Convocation of Nephilim is an agreement between the Sisters and Ordo Hereticus to assist eachother when asked.

focusedfire wrote:A)Base leadership 7
B)Base armor Save 5+
C)Only one squad that has initiative 4
D)Extremely limited access to power weapons
E)Starting BS3
F)average WS 3

Not including HQ units, which are typically better by default...

1: Base leadership 8. Guard also have an effective base Ld8 because all of their sergeants have Ld8 (and you use the highest Ld value)
--- As a side note, Sisters can have Ld9 using the same reasoning, but they have to purchase it with points. Most lists do, of course, but they still pay for it. This is, of course, quite justified in the fluff-- Sisters are far more motivated than most Guard regiments.

2: Base save 3+ in most units (which doesn't by itself make MEQ)
--- Of the non-Sororitas units, Priests actually have no save whatsoever; they have to purchase their armor. Repentia have a 4+, Arco-Flagellants have a 4++.

3: Base initiative 3. Only two squads have initiative 4, both of whom are elite close combat veterans.
-- Arco-Flagellants have I4, but then they're also only a few points shy of Terminator level cost (five points less per model to be exact). They're also not Sororitas units, but Ecclesiarchal ones.

4: What? Guard have lots of power weapons. Actually Guard have access to power fists, where Sisters don't. Guard can have more power weapons in its lists, BY FAR, than Sisters can.
--- Sisters pay the same for power weapons as Guard does, while having roughly the same effect except on Celestians and Seraphim. Eviscerators are very expensive fo rhwat you get.

5: Starting BS4. Same as veterans.

6: Base WS3. Two Sororitas squads have WS4.
--- Repentia, Penitent Engines, Arco-flagellants are WS4 as well, of the Ecclesiarchal units.

Compare this to MEQ, from C:SM:

1: Strength 4
--- No Sisters units have it.
2: Weapon Skill 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.
3: Toughness 4
--- No Sisters units have it.
4: Initiative 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.
5: 3+ saves
--- Most Sisters do have it.

Calling Sisters MEQ is a ridiculous, biased, and unrealistic simplification and I am disappointed to see otherwise intelligent posters indulging in it.

@Henner: The Sisters are a religious order within the Ecclesiarchy, similar to how the Dominicans are an order within the Catholic Church. Because of the literal wording of the Decree Passive, only women religious have been allowed to remain under arms since the Age of Apostasy. So the Sisters are not the Ecclesiarchy's army in the sense that the Guard is the Administratum's army. Rather, the Sisters are the only group within the Ecclesiarchy that can legally organize militarily.

Except only ground based military, which sounds kind of dumb at first, but they probably had it that way because of how Thor was spitting up their military power so as to not allow another event similar to the Age of Apostasy to happen.

Right, there are non-militant Sisters orders out there. The Orders of the Sisters Hospitalier are the most famous, and generally loved by the Imperial population for their focus on healing and medicine.

Actually, we don't know what the Sisters have outside of ground combat. For all we know, Soulstorm could have been right and they do have fighters. And they definitely have a means of going from planet to planet, and from orbit to ground, or they wouldn't be able to propogate the Wars of Faith.

Then there's Famulous (diplomats and such) and Dialogous (scholars and such).

In Faith & Fire, Swallow has them hitching rides on the Navy's ships just like the Guard. Personally, I doubt that there are any fighter-piloting Sisters--by which I mean I disagree that there should be any. I think they make the most sense as a sort of mechanized heavy infantry. Transports that could carry more than ten girls are what they really need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One way to expand the Sisters line would be to include some of the non-Militant Sisters a la IG's Astropath, Artillery Officer, and Naval Officer. I don't mean to suggest that Sisters should move away from IC to Command Squad HQs but just that these groups could be put to better use than as members of an Inquisitor's retinue.

Yeh then use those to represent the stuff that the Decree Passive stops them from doing. Deep Striking and Orbital Bombardments come to mind.


I'd like to see them get something like the Storm Raven, decorated up SoB style to have lots of ornatestuff, but in a good way. Maybe carry two squads of 10 in it, or just 15 as they won't have the Dreadnought for it anyway.

Good to see that hitching a ride from the Imperial Navy is alright, means I don't have to add in some random Inquisitor to the background story for my army when I get around to it

Manchu wrote:In Faith & Fire, Swallow has them hitching rides on the Navy's ships just like the Guard. Personally, I doubt that there are any fighter-piloting Sisters--by which I mean I disagree that there should be any. I think they make the most sense as a sort of mechanized heavy infantry. Transports that could carry more than ten girls are what they really need.

My own ideas were to give them a dropship similar to the Arvus Lighter or Aquila Lander, only more heavily armored and it counts as a skimmer once it successfully deep strikes.

Melissia wrote:
1: Base leadership 8. Guard also have an effective base Ld8 because all of their sergeants have Ld8 (and you use the highest Ld value)
--- As a side note, Sisters can have Ld9 using the same reasoning, but they have to purchase it with points. Most lists do, of course, but they still pay for it. This is, of course, quite justified in the fluff-- Sisters are far more motivated than most Guard regiments.

You contradict yourself and then attempt to "rationalize" it into how you see it rather than the truth yyou have just written.
Sister have superior leadership to Guard, you said it yourself

Melissia wrote:2: Base save 3+ in most units (which doesn't by itself make MEQ)
--- Of the non-Sororitas units, Priests actually have no save whatsoever; they have to purchase their armor. Repentia have a 4+, Arco-Flagellants have a 4++.

Yes, but we are not arguing if the Inquisition and its forces are closer to being IG, but rather if the Sisrets in a standalone codex would be.

As it stands there is only one out nine Sisters units that doesn't have Armour save 3+. The SM's have a single unit without Save 3+.

Melissia wrote:3: Base initiative 3. Only two squads have initiative 4, both of whom are elite close combat veterans.
-- Arco-Flagellants have I4, but then they're also only a few points shy of Terminator level cost (five points less per model to be exact). They're also not Sororitas units, but Ecclesiarchal ones.

Good to see that you recognize that they are not Sisters. Maybe we can leave them out of the discussion from this point.

As to Initiative 4, only three enties that do not have I 4 in an all Sisters list of 9 entries they are the Repentias, Battle Sisters, and the Sister Superior. Remember, we are discussing a Sisters only book so stop bringing up units that you excluded in the first place.

Melissia wrote:4: What? Guard have lots of power weapons. Actually Guard have access to power fists, where Sisters don't. Guard can have more power weapons in its lists, BY FAR, than Sisters can.
--- Sisters pay the same for power weapons as Guard does, while having roughly the same effect except on Celestians and Seraphim. Eviscerators are very expensive fo rhwat you get.

True about the power Fists. Yet, the Sisters do have the ability to take eviscerators and can power up their own strength so the eviscerators are much better than a powerfist. Then add that they can give an entire unit a form of rending and the Sisters are nothing like Guard in HtH.

Melissia wrote:5: Starting BS4. Same as veterans.

Entire army of Sisters with BS 4 versus one Guard unit, a couple of command units and one Storm Trooper unit. BTW, what is the BS of the Sister Vehicles and who uses mostly the same vehicles chasis's?

Melissia wrote:6: Base WS3. Two Sororitas squads have WS4.
--- Repentia, Penitent Engines, Arco-flagellants are WS4 as well, of the Ecclesiarchal units.

Ah, your wrong here. Only two Sister units don't have WS 4. The Battle Sisters and the Sister Superior, All other sisters units have WS 4.

Melissia wrote:Compare this to MEQ, from C:SM:

1: Strength 4
--- No Sisters units have it.

But all sister can have S 5 when need.

Melissia wrote:2: Weapon Skill 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.

False, as proved above

Melissia wrote:3: Toughness 4
--- No Sisters units have it.

True, the Only stat that distinguishes sisters from SM's

Melissia wrote:4: Initiative 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.

False, Again Proved above

Melissia wrote:5: 3+ saves
--- Most Sisters do have it.

False, For a third time, as proved above.


Congratulations, you have done a great job of showcasing how little the Sisters have in common with the IG and How much they are like SM's.

As a matter of fact, When you look at Holy rage and their anti Psyker abilities, the Sisters are very much a Female version of the Black Templars.

1: Being able to purchase a leadership upgrade is not the same as having something base. Thank you, you fail.
2: I didn't mention the Inquisition or its units; congratulations, you fail.
3a: No, we can't. Ecclesiarchal forces are as necessary to the Sororitas as spank is to Marines.
3b: Repentia, Battle Sisters (and their Sister Superiors), Dominians (and their Sister Superiors), and Retributors (and their Sister Superiors). You fail hard.
4: No matter how hard you scream otherwise, Acts of Faith do not make Sisters more like Marines. Marines don't have Acts of Faith, and none of the stats resulting in using an Act of Faith are associated with Marines. Another failure argument, you're 0-4 now.
5: And? Having BS4 just makes Sisters elite human units. Congratulations, your argument stil fails.
6: Battle Sisters (and their Sister Superiors), Dominians (and their Sister Superiors), and Retributors (and their Sister Superiors). Once again, you prove that you know jack all about the Sisters. Onto your next failure.
7: S5 I1. Marines don't have to lose their initiative to attack at higher than human strength. You still fail.
8: You failed to prove anything, but then I suppose you're used to failure.
9: Only to the ignorant and slowed. Which are you?
10: You failed to prove anything, but then I suppose you're used to failure.
11: You failed to prove anything, but then I suppose you're used to failure, considering you're 0 and 11 now.


Way to FAIL, kid. Don't argue about a faction you know jack gak about. You don't see me arguing about Necrons and Tyranids, I don't know how to play those armies, and I don't even know half the units in them anyway. And you don't know anything about Sisters, as proven by your ignorance of the existance of fully HALF of the infantry units in the codex. If you don't even have the damn codex in front of you to look up statlines and units, then just drop it and stop wasting everyone's time.