Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pure Sisters is, to me, the same thing as "Sisters + Ecclesiarchy". The two are inseparable, like Marines and spank.

Also note that I am pro more choice for sisters, more diversity for sisters, ecclesiarchy and Inquisition.

There's no reason all those things can't exist together.

Jsut because you don't want one part of it, doesn't mean you can't just ignore that part. I might not want TW Cav in my SW, but I can choose not to take them.

Yes I can. I do it all the time. I don't even call it C:WH except when I have to clarify; instead I say "Third edition codex Sisters of Battle".

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:So use that creativity, what direction could they go?

Also, do you have to be snarky? ;0

1: I've already done it.
2: Yes. I'm very passionate about this subject, and that comes out in the form of snark . I apologize ahead of time if it gets out of hand,

Passion is all well and good, and I imagine this hits quite close, but I think it's a little misplaced here. I understand the drive to have a separate codex for Sisters in order to give them some more flavor, but I think an easier move would be to just fold them into a combined codex. They are a neat army, but as has been pointed out, they're very much a Diet Marines choice. They have similar gear, but not quite similar abilities. Putting them in their own codex would cause them to falter as an army, because they're not-quite-MEQ. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an option to take them as a pure force, just as I would hope I could take GK as a pure force, but I don't think they'd be very well taken care of. As it is they occupy, alongside the GK, a rather niche set of forces.

I would rather hope for one really good Inquisition Codex than an updated DH codex and a forgettable Sisters codex.

If I may elaborate a bit; the basic battle sister has equipment on par with Marines, plus access to some esoteric gear options. Their stats, however, keep them from being level to Marines. In an assault, they are rather average because of this, if not quite a bit vulnerable to stronger forces. And there aren't any options to give them the strategic edge. Their heavy support can either be a tank or a squad of battle sisters with extra heavy guns. Their elites are battle sisters with better weapons skill. Their fast attack is either a unit of jump infantry that can't fare in an assault, or a unit of battle sisters with more special weapons and a transport.

Their flavorful units, generally, are very poor or are too tricky to be reliably used. Even their HQ isn't equivalent to HQs of other MEQ forces.

All very bland and doesn't offer any capable specialized units or even reliable general units. They can stomp all over other arms, if played the right way, but tend to have it tougher against other MEQs that don't require any special tactical genius to use.

If the choice is between a dedicated Sisters codex with revamped rules, units, and more choices, and a combined codex with GKs and other Inquisition troops, with just a slight rules update, I'd rather have that. I'd like to be able to attach a couple Sisters to make up for my GKs' shortcomings than wait another year for an entirely new codex that I won't play.

Shabutie wrote:I think an easier move would be to just fold them into a combined codex.

And yet, I don't care.

To explain without the snark, what's easy is not always what's best. I want what's best, not what's easiest. And to me, what's best is the Sisters getting their own fifth edition codex, not sullied by thie presence of some other faction that I don't give a damn about. I do not want to settle for less, which is exactly what you are suggesting to me.

That's fair enough, but I don't think it would be settling for less. You don't want to take Inquisition troops? Don't take 'em. I however enjoy the thematic and gaming changes such forces bring to the Sisters, and I think they are better off for it.

Shabutie wrote:That's fair enough, but I don't think it would be settling for less. You don't want to take Inquisition troops? Don't take 'em. I however enjoy the thematic and gaming changes such forces bring to the Sisters, and I think they are better off for it.

And there, you will have to agree to disagree. The only way i could be truly satisfied with the codex is if it had around thirty unit choices for the Sisters alone like any other fifth edition codex. I'm not even satisfied with my own codex, nevermind some half-assed amalgam codex which doesn't do justice to any of the three factions-- which is what I firmly believe any combined codex will be, no matter who writes it. The average fifth edition codex has 30-40 units in it including special characters and transports, and I don't think a combined codex would have more than this. Which means they would have to split the choices between Sisters, Grey Knights,a nd INquisition.

Which means the three factions would get less attention, less unit choices, less wargear choices, less fluff, and less of everything else. I don't WANT less.

This is agree to disagree land.

Two schools here:

1) Sisters and Ecclesiarchy or death!
2) Everything together is fine as long as everything is represented fairly.

Great place to leave off.

pretre wrote:This is agree to disagree land.

Two schools here:

1) Sisters and Ecclesiarchy or death!
2) Everything together is fine as long as everything is represented fairly.

Great place to leave off.

I think 2 is key here. I too would be sorely disappointed if the Sisters didn't get a fair showing in a combined codex, and I think that's the major point of contention here.

pretre wrote:everything is represented fairly.

I have no issue with the Inquisition being represented fairly, or the Grey Knights, and certainly that's what I want for the Sisters. The difference is that I just don't think it's possible to do so in a combined codex. A combined codex will represent none of the factions fairly.

Melissia wrote: The difference is that I just don't think it's possible to do so in a combined codex.

Fair enough. That sums up the difference nicely.

Right. I seriously don't see a codex containing nearly even sixty units being released. Thirty is more likely. So that means ten units per side. That's not a fair representation to me. That's not enough to expand the armies at all... Sisters already have more than that (two HQ choices, three Elites choices, one Troops choice, two Fast Attack choices, three Heavy Support choices).

Let's take a look at the chaos Codex were they decided to combine all the legions. How did that turn out? Pretty bad, yes the codex was powerful but the chaos players hated it and preferred the old codex.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:So use that creativity, what direction could they go?

Also, do you have to be snarky? ;0

1: I've already done it.
2: Yes. I'm very passionate about this subject, and that comes out in the form of snark . I apologize ahead of time if it gets out of hand,

Well, time only allows a first impression of your fan-dex. I will have a closer look some time in the future (will be travelling the next few days).

But here some first thoughts:

1.) A novice unit is a nice and obvious idea. Also the blade sisters (that even have nice models by Warmachine http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/the-protectorate-of-menoth/units/daughters-of-the-flame , judging from the units name I assume you know them).

2.) The Codex does include non-Sororitas units, which is a good thing. Including the Zealots is essential for the Ecclesiarchy, found this only after scrolling through the rest of that thread, should be in the first post. And Zealots/Redemptionists have nice models (Necromunda).

3.) Introducing an inquisitor like HQ (Priestess of the Machine with servitors) that collaborates with the Omnissiah cult is something I can't accept for myself. Omnissiah and Emperor cult are clear adversaries. Such an obvious collaboration with the unfaithful (faith points!) enemy would be heretic and purged on sight. The original inquisitor HQ has no such background problems and a higher diversity of units, including the Sisters Hospitalis and Sisters Dialogis, which are sadly missing in your Codex but an important branch of Adepta Sororitas (with models!).

4.) To a minor degree, the Omnissiah problem applies to the Leman Russ fluff as well. This can be remedied by changing the fluff ("old template" etc) . I am not sure, if I want an ugly Leman Russ in a Sororitas army though. Can't imagine a conversion making them fit into a SoB army. A predator would fit much better (Rhino chassis) stylewise and backgroundwise. Even my current unit of a blinged up Chimera and Vostroyans (think of Russian Orthodox church) fit better stylewise.

5.) Did I miss the Seraphim? They are essential for Sororitas armies as I know them. Don't want to lose them and their models. They seem to be only in HQ retinues, but not in Fast attack and have no stats.

So much for now as a first feedback.
BTW, if you have a converted SoB army, please add a link to that as well.

What's wrong with the Witch Hunters dex including Inquisitors and EmpraFreaks?

First, there is no reason why this needs to be an Inquisition book. This is true even by fluff standards. There's no point in getting into the nitty-gritty over this (but I have before and certainly will do it again if pushed) so let me present a simple diagram.

Inquisitorial Organization <-----Death Watch-----Grey Knights-----Adepta Sororitas-----> Independent Organization

To address other points: Does the inclusion of the Inquisitor and retinue add for modeling options? Sure but that's no reason to burden the Sisters book with those units. You can quote the Convocation fluff all you want but at the end of the day it's just as easy for an Inquisitor to conscript a Guard unit as it is for an Inquisitor to conscript some Sisters. I don't hear a lot of demand for having Inquisitors take up valuable space in the Guard codex so I don't think I should hear that kind of nonsense concerning a prospective Sisters codex, either. Face facts: the only reason that C:WH is a Inquisition book is because GW was driving the Inquisition-line as hard as they could around 2003. As Melissa already astutely pointed out, the Inquisition is NOT AN ARMY.

Second, there is no reason why a Sisters book should be thought of as a Codex: Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy is also NOT AN ARMY. The Sisters are not the army of the Ecclesiarchy, either. They are simply religious-under-arms (by a well-known quirk of literalism, only women may be such). There is a BIG, BIG difference there. A functional Sisters army will be built primarily as a Sisters army. That's not what C:WH does. It takes a cool, coherent force and waters it down with a bunch of things that do not fit the basic concept. Could/should there be Ecclesiarchy elements to a "pure" Sisters dex? Certainly! BUT they should be secondary, flavorful units and never be designed as the standard pick for any organizational choice. I don't want to get too bogged down on this point so let me try and be as clear as possible: a Sisters army should be perfectly competitive using only Sororita models.

I'm actually thinking that a better way to go rather than multiple Inquisition Ordos books would be to give Grey Knights, Sisters and (maybe) Deathwatch their own books... and then release an Imperial Agents book in a similar vein to the list of the same name in the 'Black Codex' from 2nd edition. Include Inquisitors, Assassins, Ecclesiarchy, AdMech units, Navigators... all of that fun stuff that doesn't belong to a specific army, made available to all Imperial Armies (or just all armies, if you want to add in some interesting fluff options for scenarios).

That would leave them free to develop the Sisters and GK's into full armies in their own right, while keeping in all the other stuff for those who want it.

Not surprisingly, I agree with insaniak. I would only add that Deathwatch could also go into such a Black Codex as they have no existence independent from the Inquisition.

Kroothawk:

1: Novitiates are already in, as a troops choice.

2: Faithful Citizens, Zealots, Arco-Flagellants, Penitent Engines, and the High Priest(ess) are all Ecclesiarchal units.

3: I have not read fluff that says they hate eachother THAT much. They both worship the Emperor, in different aspects-- and quite frankly the Ecclesiarchy is itself actually kinda fractured by many cults as it is, so it has no time to war with the Machine Cult. The two have a chilly relationship, yes, but not adversarial. Furthermore? The Ecclesiarchy has the money to buy stuff from the Machine Cult's manufactorums. And frankly, if hte Ecclesiarchy hated the Machine Cult so much, then techpriests wouldn't be allowed in the Guard either except in rare extremist regiments...

4: I can imagine it though! So it stays in.

5: They are in, I just forgot to copy and paste them into the fast attack section from the previous thread.

Oh and if Sisters are MarinesLite or Diet Marines or Femarines then what does that make Grey Knights? The fact that non-SM can wear power armor does not lend any support in any way whatsoever to the argument that Sisters should not have their own dex much less that they should be folded into some combined Inquisitorial dex. (The combined dex is actually one of the most rotten ideas that fans have ever dreamt up, IMO.) The reason that Sisters get such a bad rap for being Femarines is because C:WH is crap. Furthermore, C:WH is crap because it is crammed with Inquisition and EcclesiFreaks rather than more Sororita units.

Ideally, Sisters should be a middle ground between Guard and Marines. Individually, they are better fighters than your average guardsman and they're certainly better equipped although they have nowhere near the numbers to successfully wage wars of attrition like the Guard can (or should be able to do). But they're not as elite or versatile as Marines, either, much less as physically strong or tough but they do have greater numbers and a level of religious fanaticism that makes even SM look like heretics. I think they should be designed to play well as a mid-range gunline with the mech support to make that feasible. Rather than being thought of as Femarines, they should be thought of as squads of IG veteran sergeants in power armor.

I think a large part of the problem is that they are just a little too similar to Marines.

While it would invalidate an entire model range, I wouldn't mind seeing Boltguns returned to being the holy weapon of the Space Marine, and Sisters given Hellguns instead.

As opposed to making them too much like Stormtroopers?

If you're going to advocate a different weapon because they're too similar to one faction, at least advocate s weapon that wouldn't make them too similar to another one.

Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

I forgot to mention in my last post one of my key arguments against a "Codex: Ecclesiarchy" approach to the Sisters. Whether or not Sisters use Bolters or Hellguns and whether or not you can get over non-Marines in power armor, no one can say that Adepta Sororitas doesn't stand apart in at least one very major way: faith points. This little mechanic is extremely interesting. Since this is the Background board, there's no need to talk a lot about the crunch side of things. Fluff-wise, this is super interesting. Of all the GrimDark factions, only the Black Templars come close to the Sisters in their fear, suspicion, and hatred of psykers. And yet here is some kind of psychic effect at play in their very faith. I'm not saying that it is definitely a Warp phenomenon (Dark Heresy seems to suggest otherwise) but it damn well could be. (As an aside, the BT experience a similarly troubling phenomenon in their vows to say nothing of SWs' sagas.)

In any case, Sisters AND ONLY Sisters generate and use use faith points. Inquisitors don't do this. Not even the ChurchCircus sideshows can do it. It's Sisters only, except (for no good reason) Repentia. And just as much as their bodice-like power armor, faith is a major theme of the Sisters' crunch and fluff alike. For their army to work as it--in my opinion--should work, faith needs to mean a lot more to the army that it does in C:WH, where it is something of a sidenote . . . albeit the most interesting by far sidenote in that book. Some would say "just give faith points to the freaks" but that defeats the whole purpose. That doesn't sharpen and distinguish Sisters (which is what they need crunch-wise) but rather makes them more generic-seeming. So, I would say that if there have to be freaks in my Sisters dex, they should be like Vespids are to Tau Empire--kind of a neat concept, fits well with the theme, models are not bad BUT if you never took them or even considered taking them you wouldn't be missing a thing.*

*TBH I think non-Tau aliens should play a much larger role in any future Tau book for the title "Empire" to really mean anything. One of the only ideas more perniciously stupid than fielding Sisters and Grey Knights out of the same codex is giving the Kroot their own book.

Necrosis wrote:

Shabutie wrote:I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

So we shouldn't give them any new units? We should just ignore them since they don't already have much units.
Why can't we expand them? Whats wrong with giving them their own full codex with lots of new units?
I'm pretty sure GW could easily expand them and make them unique from space marines easily.

I agree. I think they'd be easy to expand, and would really like to see Repentia made playable this time around, with the Mistress being Faithful. As the codex said about pure Sisters being characterful, I agree, especially due to the faith powers and of course the whole female army thing. However, I agree about the different mix of weapons thing and don't want them to be like female space-marines. I think it's kinda cool how Dominions need transporters and count as fast attack. Anyway, does anyone have any ideas for any new Adeptus Soritas units that make them even more unique?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I tried your link Necrosis and didn't get anything.

Deep Throat wrote:
Btw, I tried your link Necrosis and didn't get anything.

http://www.mediafire.com/?mzyjz1uqymf

Manchu wrote:Oh and if Sisters are MarinesLite or Diet Marines or Femarines then what does that make Grey Knights? The fact that non-SM can wear power armor does not lend any support in any way whatsoever to the argument that Sisters should not have their own dex much less that they should be folded into some combined Inquisitorial dex. (The combined dex is actually one of the most rotten ideas that fans have ever dreamt up, IMO.) The reason that Sisters get such a bad rap for being Femarines is because C:WH is crap. Furthermore, C:WH is crap because it is crammed with Inquisition and EcclesiFreaks rather than more Sororita units.

Ideally, Sisters should be a middle ground between Guard and Marines. Individually, they are better fighters than your average guardsman and they're certainly better equipped although they have nowhere near the numbers to successfully wage wars of attrition like the Guard can (or should be able to do). But they're not as elite or versatile as Marines, either, much less as physically strong or tough but they do have greater numbers and a level of religious fanaticism that makes even SM look like heretics. I think they should be designed to play well as a mid-range gunline with the mech support to make that feasible. Rather than being thought of as Femarines, they should be thought of as squads of IG veteran sergeants in power armor.

Grey Knights are Marines heavy. They have the extra rules and special gear that makes them stand apart from other Marines, and their general force organization is separate from that of other Chapters (i.e. they lack Company/Squad markings and really lack any specialized units) as well as retaining a method of operation unlike any other Marine force in the galaxy.

Sisters come across as a failed attempt at MEQ. They have the equipment, but lack the skills and background to make them stand apart. As you mention, Faith Points are all they have that set them apart (and BTW, I figured that Repentia didn't contribute Faith because they're being punished for a perceived sin and therefore appear to be less pious than the other sisters). They really seem like a mish-mash of troops that can be separated by slightly different load outs. Additionally, at no time do they strike me as an organized army or military force as they do muscle men for the church, to be seconded at will by the Inquisition.

Shabutie wrote:
Grey Knights are Marines heavy. They have the extra rules and special gear that makes them stand apart from other Marines, and their general force organization is separate from that of other Chapters (i.e. they lack Company/Squad markings and really lack any specialized units) as well as retaining a method of operation unlike any other Marine force in the galaxy.

Sisters come across as a failed attempt at MEQ. They have the equipment, but lack the skills and background to make them stand apart. As you mention, Faith Points are all they have that set them apart (and BTW, I figured that Repentia didn't contribute Faith because they're being punished for a perceived sin and therefore appear to be less pious than the other sisters). They really seem like a mish-mash of troops that can be separated by slightly different load outs. Additionally, at no time do they strike me as an organized army or military force as they do muscle men for the church, to be seconded at will by the Inquisition.

That cause Sisters aren't MEQ. They are far less points thus allowing you to field more of them. Faith Point is the center of the army. Sisters are quite organized, it just the Ecclesiarchy makes much use of large mobs and zealots which the sisters do not control. Also the Inquisitor doesn't control those mob, Inquisitor are usually shadowy figures to stay in the background and when they need to get a job done they use specialist not mobs since mobs have a high chance of causing collateral damage on the Inquisitor objective.

Not necessarily so. The Inquisition is played up as being internally disjointed, with some Inquisitors preferring the scalpel and others the hammer. I always understood it to be that the Inquisitors available in the Codices were those Inquisitors with either a considerable amount of tactical acumen or a preference for smashing out their problems, while other Inquisitors simply took the steps to keep a battle from ever ocurring.

Think of it like this. If an Inquisitor is after a certain item (an objective), do you think he's going to trust a bunch of fanatics to capture it? Hell do you think an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor would use a bunch of fanatics to fight daemons? He would probably kill them in order to avoid corruption spreading to them.

Melissia wrote:Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

There is a lot of old codices that would argue otherwise.

Personally,I am not a fan of the Sisters on their own.
This is because of the what seems to be a common excuse/reason people seem to have for wanting such. The reasoning often comes across as a type of feminist affirmative action based game design, where people want to cram yet another Imperium MEQ army down our throats under the excuse that Sisters will be "different" simply because they are female.

I am not opposed to the idea of an all woman army but the last thing this game needs is another Imperium based MEQ faction. GW already has at least 2 armies to many on the Imperium front when looking at the overall balance between races. I don't want to see another Xenos or Chaos army get the same treatment(condensing into one book) that the Eldar and the CSM's did just to make room for another Imperium MEQ Army.

Before another Imperium army is added there is a list of 4-5 non-imperiun expansion codices that need to happen. Until these expansions happen, I think a combined Inq+GK+SoB makes sense.

It makes sense because it is almost impossible to expand the INQ, SoB, and GK base mission concept enough to explain why these armies are out fighting everyone, while at the same rime maintaining what makes them unique. In order for these armies to retain their individuality their units would need to be limited in a manner that would leave them non-competitive on their own.

focusedfire wrote:

Melissia wrote:Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

There is a lot of old codices that would argue otherwise.

Personally,I am not a fan of the Sisters on their own.
This is because of the what seems to be a common excuse/reason people seem to have for wanting such. The reasoning often comes across as a type of feminist affirmative action based game design, where people want to cram yet another Imperium MEQ army down our throats under the excuse that Sisters will be "different" simply because they are female.

I am not opposed to the idea of an all woman army but the last thing this game needs is another Imperium based MEQ faction. GW already has at least 2 armies to many on the Imperium front when looking at the overall balance between races. I don't want to see another Xenos or Chaos army get the same treatment(condensing into one book) that the Eldar and the CSM's did just to make room for another Imperium MEQ Army.

Before another Imperium army is added there is a list of 4-5 non-imperiun expansion codices that need to happen. Until these expansions happen, I think a combined Inq+GK+SoB makes sense.

It makes sense because it is almost impossible to expand the INQ, SoB, and GK base mission concept enough to explain why these armies are out fighting everyone, while at the same rime maintaining what makes them unique. In order for these armies to retain their individuality their units would need to be limited in a manner that would leave them non-competitive on their own.

First of all there not MEQ, yes they have 3+ armour save but they only have S and T 3.
Also your post contradicts itself. You want 4 or 5 more non-imperium codexs to get an update, so to do that we combine the Inquisition Codex? Wouldn't it just make more sense to push the DH and WH codex back a bit and not give them an update? Also it's not impossible to expand the armies, it can be easily done, it just takes a bit of imagination. These armies have been ignored by GW and not given the proper respect they should have gotten and you want to continue this? Just because space marines hog everything? Sounds a lot like an eye for an eye.