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Expect sisters are shooting army while Black Templar are a close combat army. Big difference in playing style. Sisters use acts of faith which they need to test and run out of while Black Templar take a vow which stays in effect as long as you have the Emperor Champion. Sisters also gain additional faith points as other sisters die which makes them unique has no other army has a similar concept. Also a Guard army can be made out of veterans. Also Domions and retributors only have ws 3, please do your research you seem to be getting lots of your facts wrong. Also for Strenght 5 remeber you go down to Initiative 1 and your better off using that faith point else where. Also most sisters squads have ws 3 (Battle sister, Dominion, retributor squads) vs (Celestian and Seraphims (Repentias do not count since they techincally aren't sisters nor can they use acts of faith and are in no way MEQ). When it comes to close combat marines will do far better then sisters. Also in shooting it much easier to wound a sister then it is a marine. Also stop focusing on the sisters "elite" units and look at the basic battle sister instead when making comparisons.

@ Melissa-

An overly emotional reply full of falsehoods and innaccuracies=Epic Fail

But please, go on. You might convince your self of the complete and utter Gak you are spewing in order to indulge in your Matyrdom.


PS-What did I say about talking to your daddy like that.


@All posters- My apologies for the slightly off topic de-rail, but it is important to first determine what niche the Sisters as a stand alone army would fill.

I like their backstory but if made into an army while remaining unchanged their Holy Crusade would be to close to the Black Templar's design and purpose. It woud be two codices for the same thing.

I am not sure of what their backstory could be changed to to make them unique enough to warrant a seperate codex. I am sure that those changes would not be liked by those whom are currently playing Sisters.

Think about it, Are you comfortable with the Sisters entire Back story and mission being changed.

Now if they changed the Black Templars into being the Ordos Xenos, Then there would be a spot available for the Sisters in their current role.

Please to remember that this is all IMO so feel free to ignore what I've posted if it bothers you or you don't agree.



@Necrosis- The Templars are not locked into being only HtH. Their ability to put PoMS on all of their vehicels can make for very shooty builds

focusedfire wrote:An overly emotional reply full of falsehoods and innaccuracies

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Also? Your opinion is worth nothing to me, so I couldn't care less about your "IMO" rant. The Sisters existed before the Black Templars became what they are today.


As the saying goes, opinions are like donkey-caves, but yours smell worse than mine seeing as you don't know jack about the factions involved.

FocusedFire did that last post accomplish anything? It was just a big fat "Your Wrong" post. Also see my above post why sisters are not like Black Templar.

@Melissa- Your ignorance is astounding. The Templars while witten currently as a second founding chapter were one of the firs SM armies made by GW.

But again, feel free to show what little you know


Posted this above as an edit but will post again as my counter point to the BT are HtH only argument
@Necrosis- The Templars are not locked into being only HtH. Their ability to put PoMS on all of their vehicels can make for very shooty builds.

Edit to add last two lines

BlackTemplars do excel in close combat and that's what they are meant for. Yes you can make a shooty list but they are meant for close combat. You also ignored all my other points and you seem to keep ignoring them time and time again.

Necrosis wrote:BlackTemplars do excel in close combat and that's what they are meant for. Yes you can make a shooty list but they are meant for close combat. You also ignored all my other points and you seem to keep ignoring them time and time again.

You are correct about the dominions. I forgot about them as they are not listed on the Sisters quick reference sheet. They still don't tip the balance towards Guard.

The point is that both armies can be geared for bth HtH and ranged combat to a level that makes them redundant as holy crusader armies.

focusedfire wrote:

Necrosis wrote:BlackTemplars do excel in close combat and that's what they are meant for. Yes you can make a shooty list but they are meant for close combat. You also ignored all my other points and you seem to keep ignoring them time and time again.

You are correct about the dominions. I forgot about them as they are not listed on the Sisters quick reference sheet. They still don't tip the balance towards Guard.

The point is that both armies can be geared for bth HtH and ranged combat to a level that makes them redundant as holy crusader armies.

Your saying sisters can do well in close to close combat. Please just stop there. Sisters suck in close combat. S3, T3, I3 and WS 3 is bad for close combat. Just stop.

Celestians are Sisters with I 4, The army may give engaged unit a 2 point bump to become initiative 5-6.

I have a friend who plays sisters masterfully and have watched his Celestian Squad rip an SM command squad a new one in HtH.

focusedfire wrote:Celestians are Sisters with I 4, The army may give engaged unit a 2 point bump to become initiative 5-6.

I have a friend who plays sisters masterfully and have watched his Celestian Squad rip an SM command squad a new one in HtH.

Were talking about basic Battle Sisters not the elite Celestians. Yes Celestians can rip apart a space marine command squad if you give them right upgrades and burn faith on them and I bet their was a Canoness in the Squad to. Also if you boost their I it means they are S3, which means you wound a marine on a 5+.

focusedfire wrote:@All posters- My apologies for the slightly off topic de-rail, but it is important to first determine what niche the Sisters as a stand alone army would fill.

It's a good de-rail, I think. As to what purpose Sisters serve: As I've said twice now, I think crunch-wise they should be the top dogs for a somewhat mobile mid-range gunline. Fluff-wise, they are traitor killers. Going back to RT, they were Marine hunters.

@Necosis-I am not saying that the Sisters and BT's are Identical, Just that there mission and abilities mirror each others enough to the point that as long as one has a codex it precludes any real reason for the other to have an independent book of their own.

Now, if you changed one of these armies fluff substantially then it might be feasible if it weren't for the release schedule already being over crowded. And because I like both armies base concept and would find abandoning these concepts a shame.

Personally, I'd rather GW combined some codices to where all armies are receiving fair treatment until they can expand to properly handle their workload.

If combining with the Inquisition is abhorent, then how about creating a fluff reason for the Sisters and Templars to be combined into a Crusaders Codex.

Before you go off, let me explain the fluff of how this would come to be.

The Sisters have a very interesting orders that are being neglected by GW. Mainly the Hospitalars.

The BT have no homeworld while the Sisters have an extensive string of Convents and Hostels.

The Sisters fluff ingores how they move their forces about while the Templars are always moving.

Both armies are charged with prosecuting a crusade against the enemies of the Emperor.


Taking these established traits of both armies, it is not a far stretch to see a pooling of their limited resources.

The Sisters would remain as they are(Excluding all Inq units) and would add Hospitalar units. They would keep the Adeptus Soritus for the protection of these Holy refuges.

While the Templars protect the Pilgrims that travel between these Hostels and use the Fortress Convents as staging/resupply areas. Both are able to act independently in their tasked duties but are able to call upon the other for support and aid.

Sisters are a mid point between GEQ and MEQ, and tend to focus on shorter ranged shooting as opposed to assault (like Marines) or long-ranged shooting (like Guard). They also have unique gameplay mechanics in Acts of Faith, which no matter how hard one screams, is still unique to the Sisters and not comparable to anything Marines have.


By the way, the Orders of the Sisters Hospitalier, Famulous, and Dialogous are expanded upon in Dark Heresy.

@Melissa: I'm still on the fence about how to treat Dark Heresy material. I think it's pretty well-established that BL fluff can flip at any moment. I can't imagine that FFG will garner more respect than BL.

(It is the finest tabletop RPG on the market currently, IMO.)

@FocusedFire: Combining BT and Sisters is not a good idea as they are not really so much alike fluff0wise and they are certainly totally different when it comes to play style. TBH it just sounds like your real goal is shrinking the number of Imperium books out there. If anything, you ought to save your vitriol for all of the SM books. I'd think that GK would be what really pissed you off.

focusedfire wrote:Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And their are a lot of SM codices and retcanned history where the bolters are a weapon specifically designed and reserved for the SM's.

Doesn't one of the Sisters books mention something about power armour and boltguns being normally reserved for SM's but while the sisters armour is purposely designed for the sisters they were a special exception.

As to the IG, Bolters and Bolt Pistols are a status symbol and rare.

I was always under the impression that the Space Marines considered the Bolters to be holy weapons, and the expensive and time-consuming means of production limited the Bolters so that they're widest use was in Space Marine hands. And that Sisters' power armor just got rid of the means by which it would interface with the Black Carapace and other augmentations that the Sisters lack.

Manchu- was working from the point that these two armies compliment each other nicely. Much of the fluff that would create issues between them is Inquisition based. If your wanting to shift them to be Echlesiarcy many of the incompatibilities fall away.

As for the GK's, I have no hatred for them as they are the only SM's that live up to the fluff of Knights in Space in their look and abilities.

I have no real hatred for the various chapters. I just dislike the Pro Football Player in Space look and don't feel that they are truly distinctive enough to merit so many codices.
Would love to see SW's, BA's, and DA's combined into a "monsters"codex of werewolves, vampires, and Frankensteins castle. This would free up room for the LatD and other such armies that would give a real rival army for the Inq to go after.

I think that my primary issue is that there is currently to many cowboys and not enough indians. Do you follow?

Yes, but they're Black Templars; IE, Marines. Therefor I don't care for them, and they can go screw themselves and stay the hell away from my Sisters codex.

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: I'm still on the fence about how to treat Dark Heresy material.

I treat it with more respect than Black Library. It's far more consistent.

On bolters and power armor: Marines can believe whatever they want, it's irrelevant. Civilian model bolters aren't actually all that rare, as I said before. They're expensive, but pretty much anyone in a position of authority can probably have and afford one if they want. Even underhive gang leaders fi they're successful enough. Also, there are civilian model power armors available-- again, very expensive to use and maintain (And nowhere near the battery life of a military grade model), but they exist. Notably, the Power Armor is much, much rarer and more expensive than bolters, for obvious reasons...

Dark Angels aren't Frankensteins, you heathen!

I can't really think of a good analogue for them in literature, other than maybe the Fallen Angels of the Bible:
Obsessed with righting a wrong that they themselves caused.


As for the role that Sisters should play?
Simple:
Mobile, short ranged combat with lots of flame based weaponry. None of this "mid range" crap.
Why?
Because honestly, midrange strikes me as more the realm of the Astartes Tactical Squads/Guard Stormtroopers.
Both are (background wise at least) supposed to be the go-to forces who're intended to be dropped(literally in the case of the Tactical Squads courtesy of Drop Pods) behind enemy lines, shred the foe apart while causing as much possible terror and chaos as they can before regrouping or heading onto other objectives.

Melissia wrote:Yes, but they're Black Templars; IE, Marines. Therefor I don't care for them, and they can go screw themselves and stay the hell away from my Sisters codex.

If you feel that way then why did you copy so much of the BT's unique stuff for your Fan-dex. Your novitates are a direct pilfer from the BT's as is the re-rollable hits on three's in close combat.

Your Fan-dex illustrates the point I was making. That when expanded into their own seperate army the Sisters inevitably become MEQ. People can't resist in their fan-dex's and GW won't be able ro resist if it means selling more high profit margin units with just a different emblem.

Yeah, I gave your Fan-dex a quick read. Its....interesting. An army that gets to out Inquisition the Inquisition, Out HtH any SM chapter, Fields as many models as hoarde IG(If you go with the citezen mob units) all in the same build.

focusedfire wrote:If you feel that way then why did you copy so much of the BT's unique stuff for your Fan-dex.

I didn't. I have never looked at C:BT (therefor I couldn't have copied from it), and your conclusions about the units are stupid.

1: Novitiates are what Sororitas graduates from the Schola Progenium are called. It's canon fluff, and furthermore, "novitiate" is a real word. Generally speaking, Novitiate means "someone who has entered a religious order but has not taken final vows", IE, a novice initiate of the faith. Your conclusion that they were ripped from C:BT is thus false.

2: Always hitting on a 3+ in close combat is the way that Celestians have been for the majority of the time they've existed. For a short while, it was instead changed to Preferred Enemy: Everyone, but then GW changed it back for some reason. Your conclusion that this was ripped from C:BT is thus false.

3: Re-rolling to hit is not unique to Black Templars, and your attempts to suggest such are laughable at best. But then, the fact that you mention this only further prove to underline the fact that you didn't really read, and barely even glanced over the thread-- the only time to-hit re-rolls are even mentioned are in proposed rules that are actually looking to be scrapped (IE chapter nine; "units and rules under discussion", IE incomplete). Your conclusion that this was ripped from C:BT is thus hilariously false.

You may have had a quick glance, but you apparently didn't actually read it. Congratulations, I don't care what you think until you do. If you think the units in my fandex can out-fight SMs in close combat you're deluding yourself (which given this thread is about normal for you), for example.

If you wish to discuss my codex further, go actually read it first. And then post in this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/295692.page

Talking about the specifics of the fandex belongs in that thread, I merely used that as an example of how they might be expanded, and no, they are not MEQ, thank you for being a failure at every argument you've ever made in this thread.

@Focused Fire: I dont think BT are truly Emperor-worshipers although they may be closer than other Chapters. From a very shallow point of view, they seem similar. But read a little deeper and you'll find that they are really not too much alike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kanluwen: You may want to think that through once more. If anything Marines should be short-range specialists and Sisters should rule mid-field, especially given that they will never have the H2H ability of Marines. But of course Marines will do anything pretty well in the final analysis.

@Melissa-The only source of delusion in this thread is your thinking that you have an accurate or balanced view of your favorite army.

You are right about the various things you've added already existing. It's called BT's

BTW, nice way to prove that you haven't done your research for your fan-dex. Someone who is interested in building a balanced and unique army would study all of the other armies in order to insure that they weren't tresspassing on another armies turf.

By admitting that you've never read the BT codex you have just proved that you are not a person interested in maintaining such balance.

I'll take my quick glance and a resulting build against anything you can come up with.
Your Faith points are through the roof with no balancing mechanism
The balancing Mechanisms have been removed wholesale.
You are proposing a 50 man units for 215 Points
Almost all sisters are I4 and WS 4.
Your Biker Sisters could be kitted to be mini-nob bikers between wargear and acts of faith.

BTW, Proposed and scrapped are two different things. The fact that you haven't out right dismissed the 50 man wound blob is clear enough indication that you are to in love with this army to write a balanced 'dex

I've read your 'Dex and have posted my observations. You will continue in your stubborn mule-like denial, constantly braying "not so" when rational minds give you a relatively polite critique.

Have fun watching the green and purple clouds, Later

@ Manchu
Notice: I specified "Astartes Tactical Squads", along with Guard Stormtroopers.

Marines, overall are hard to pin down with one style of combat. If you were to make me pin it down--they are the "jack of all trades".

They, as a whole, don't "specialize" in any one style of combat--but if you were to force me to say what specifically they excel at, across all the Codex(VERY important to note that specifically here) Chapters it would be the mid ranged firefights from Drop Pods or mobile fireteams mounted in Rhinos or Razorbacks.

The epitome of the Astartes is a power armoured Tactical Marine Squad drop podding into a target and then wading through hails of incoming fire while laying down their own return fire with bolters to reach their objective.

And "hand to hand" doesn't necessarily mean short-range. Flamethrowers and meltaguns are "short-ranged", but they're not hand to hand weapons now are they?

Hey look, focusedfire continues to act like his repeatedly saying something makes it true. Well, ignoring that troll who hasn't even read C:SoB or C:WH and yet somehow thinks he's able to argue about the faction, let's talk about something constructive instead.

Kanluwen wrote:[snip]

IE, their role in the Imperium would be a heavily armored fast attack/response force... They can deploy quickly to almost any location, put out a devastating barrage of firepower, and then leave for the next mission. But this is hard to reflect well in tabletop...

Melissia wrote:Way to FAIL, kid. Don't argue about a faction you know jack gak about. You don't see me arguing about Necrons and Tyranids, I don't know how to play those armies, and I don't even know half the units in them anyway. And you don't know anything about Sisters, as proven by your ignorance of the existance of fully HALF of the infantry units in the codex. If you don't even have the damn codex in front of you to look up statlines and units, then just drop it and stop wasting everyone's time.

Breathe.

You're talking about a fictional army in a science fantasy game of toy soldiers. If you can't talk about that in a civil fashion without getting so worked up, you need to take a step away from the computer for a while.

People will have conflicting opinions to your own. That's how the world works.



For everyone involved: The thread is getting a little silly. Any more personal digs, or snipes about other posters' ignorance, and it will be locked and the person responsible sent for a holiday.

Manchu wrote:@Focused Fire: I dont think BT are truly Emperor-worshipers although they may be closer than other Chapters. From a very shallow point of view, they seem similar. But read a little deeper and you'll find that they are really not too much alike.

What I was proposing was a slight change to the BT's background that gives them more direction and would set them apart from the other chapters in a truly substantial manner. But If you don't see merit in the idea then we are back to dealing with the overcrowded release schedule and the quality rules that are produced in the rush(BA, Descent of Angels & DoM, Spirit Leech just to name a couple)

How would you resolve this issue without cramming another Codex into the line-up?





Edited out of respect for insaniak and all of the mods at Dakka

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:[snip]

IE, their role in the Imperium would be a heavily armored fast attack/response force... They can deploy quickly to almost any location, put out a devastating barrage of firepower, and then leave for the next mission. But this is hard to reflect well in tabletop...

Ehhhhh, not really.

They're more like the Adeptus Arbites--supporting Planetary Defense Forces/Interior Guard or Inquisitors who are rooting out cults. They're fantastic for the areas where Cults operate--generally, the built up Hive Cities and their close quarters where their Powered Armour and short range fire discipline/flamethrower based weaponry come into play.

Err, no, I was talking about the role of the Astartes.

The role of Sisters would be more complex...

No, Melissia, the role of Sisters isn't "that complex":

Their role is exactly what I put it. They're intended to be a force raised and put to field when the Ecclesiarchy has an interest that they want to protect.

The Sororitas really seem to have no aims or goals other than the Ecclesiarchy's, barring a few Orders that seemingly "go rogue" and start up shenanigans under the auspices of a weird cult of the Emperor.

However, this is where things get weird:
Witchhunters, aka the Ordos Hereticus, seem to be the one Inquisitorial Ordos that seems to have really close ties(as a whole) with an outside entity(in this case--the Ecclesiarchy). This leads to an Inquisitiorial Ordos and Ecclesiarchy collaborating in ventures where you'd normally never see it.

On the battlefield, the Sisters would perform three key roles, as they are right now (assuming the branches of the Imperium work together as efficiently as possible, IE, the best case scenario):

1: Spearheading a major offensive.
Sisters can do this better than Guardsmen because of their superior training, firepower, and armor. Sisters can do this better than Marines because they can absorb casualties better-- each Astartes lost is a huge loss in firepower and experience, but Sororitas have higher numbers and therefor can absorb losses better.

2: Urban warfare
Sisters do this better than any other faction in 40k. They have the numbers, the short-ranged firepower, and the skill to dominate in an urban environment. As I've learned from playing Cities of Death!

3: Morale boosting
Sisters are stated to do this whenever they appear, bolstering the resolve and faith of Guard and Frateris units that they fight alongside. Each Sister is practically a priestess unto herself, after all.