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@ Melissia
1: No. The Guard have Stormtroopers and tanks for spearheading offensives. Astartes won't be "frontlining" a spearhead, but either Drop Podding/Thunderhawking(or hell--in the case of Terminator Squads teleporting) their squads to destroy enemy command/logistics and demoralize the foe while the Guard are actually performing the real breakthroughs and offensives.

I can see Sisters maybe operating as part of that breakthrough, but not much else since there have been instances in the background where the Sisters flatout refuse to aid a Guard offensive because they decide to do their own offensive to recapture a shrine or devotional place.

2: Again, debatable. Are we talking total warfare or purges? If purges--then yeah, they're pretty good at it when the Imperium wants to keep the city and its infrastructure intact.
Otherwise, long drawn-out campaign by Guard armour, Naval bombers/orbital bombardments work far better than having to convince the Ecclesiarchy to intervene.

3: Not really. The mere sight of Astartes Drop Pods makes Guard armies fight harder, much less seeing the Astartes themselves leading the charge or intervening alongside the Guard.

And there's FAR more instances of Marines not cooperating with Guard, or even actively opposing them and working against the goals of the Guard, than the same of the Sisters. More importantly, read what I wrote:

On the battlefield, the Sisters would perform three key roles, as they are right now (assuming the branches of the Imperium work together as efficiently as possible, IE, the best case scenario):

Which nullifies most of your complaints. It's far easier to get the support of the Ecclesiarchy than it is to arrange for timely Marine intervention or assistance. Marines are RARE, to say the least... there's around a million loyalist Astartes in total, less than one Marine per planet in the Imperium. Sisters have no real upper limit, they could have tens if not hundreds of millions using C:WH's vague numbers, allowing them to be far more prevalent than Astartes, and thus more commonly assist the Guard. And that's just Battle Sisters. Sisters Hospitalier work as battlefield medics all the time.

Just to repeat my point from page 2:

The WH Codex includes Ordo Hospitalis and Ordo Dialogus (not Dialogous , as retinue of the inquisitor). An Ecclesiarchy or Sororitas Codex/army list would not be complete without them, esp. as they have nice official models.

BTW I see no problem in using the Sororitas looking female Inquisitor miniature as some kind of Sororitas member. So all those nice retinue models (including crusaders, Sister Hospitalis and Dialogus) can be included in your army. And there is a nice nun assassin in Helldorado.

The machine cult may grudgingly accept the Emperor as the Omnissiah, but the machine cult is still another religion (and much older). Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Moslems may pray to the same God, but you will never see a protestant or Muslim be allowed to lead a catholic monastery or be elected pope. So exchanging Inquisition with AdMech creates more problems than it solves.

In the end everyone would be satisfied with a separate Grey Knight Codex, Ecclesiarchy/Sororitas Codex and a small Inquisition add-on booklet similar to the 2nd edition assassin booklet. Always good to have more options than before.

Where are some instances of Marines not cooperating with the Guard or "actively opposing them"?

The most I can think of is when Marine Commanders assume command of a battlefield when it's clear the Guard Commander in charge is a moron and sending subjects of the Imperium to needless deaths.

Unless you're counting Azrael's hissy fit during the 13th Black Crusade, where he left and withdrew the rest of the Unforgiven after not being given overall command of the Astartes forces involved.

Kroothawk wrote:The WH Codex includes Ordo Hospitalis and Ordo Dialogus (not Dialogous

No, it's Dialogous. And it's Hospitalier. And it's Order, not Ordo. Don't try and correct my spelling if you aren't able to spell it either

The proper way to refer to the divisions of the Sisters are:

The Orders Dialogous of the Adepta Sororitas
The Orders Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas
The Orders Hospitalier of the Adepta Sororitas
The Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas

You might notice "the Orders", IE, it just indicates that it is a group of Orders that fall under roughly the same category. Each Order is different from the next in some fashion, though they all typically fall into one of these categories. Not all Orders do, however.

Okay, then it is GW's epic fail in Latin, not yours

They have done worse, see this German Codex cover:



I will check this spelling, when I am back home.
Until then Ordo Dialogus and Ordo Hospitalis (or plural Ordines Dialogi and Ordines Hospitales) would be the correct Latin version of the name ("ordo" Latin for order).
Among the fighting orders, all wear different colours. BTW 2nd edition Codex gives an estimate of the total number of Sororitas IIRC.

Still, consider to add them to your army list.

Duh, of course they fail. Astartes isn't even a real Latin word, for example (at least IIRC).

Besides, High Gothic is not Latin, so much as it is somewhat represented by Latin.

Melissia wrote:My own ideas were to give them a dropship similar to the Arvus Lighter or Aquila Lander, only more heavily armored and it counts as a skimmer once it successfully deep strikes.

Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

Melissia wrote: And it's Hospitalier.

It's actually Hospitaller...

Kroothawk wrote:Okay, then it is GW's epic fail in Latin, not yours

It's not meant to be correct Latin, as Imperial Gothic isn't Latin. It's meant to be something vaguely like Latin, to convey the ritualistic nature of a language which in 'actual' use is probably as little like Latin as the everyday speech in the fiction is like English. It's just for colour.

^Sort of like the Wiley Coyote and Roadrunner names a the beginning of each cartoon.

@Kanluwen: I dont quite get your point regarding the Sisters' role and motive. Could you explain in greater depth?

Necroman wrote:Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

I agree, but the problem is the Aquila LAnder can only hold six models IIRC. It'd have to be significantly changed to make a proper orbital lander craft fo the Sisters.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

I agree, but the problem is the Aquila LAnder can only hold six models IIRC. It'd have to be significantly changed to make a proper orbital lander craft fo the Sisters.

I really think the last thing Sisters need is a flying unit. One of the first things they need is a more accommodating APT.

I disagree. I find that I need SOME way for Sisters to get from orbit to the ground, especially if they need to deploy rapidly in a combat zone. Currently that is a HUGE fluff hole for the Sisters-- how they get from planet to planet can be explained easily, but how they manage to deploy into a combat zone from orbit? Not so easily.

Do we really need a unit to explain this? I mean, we don't worry about it with the Guard either. (Sandy Mitchell has them coming down a regiment at a time in some instances--aboard one damn ship!) As cool as the mythical plastic Thunderhawk might sound, I'm not eager to see Imperial Aeronaticus incorporated into 40k.


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Also, rapid deployment may be something Sisters are not good at. My vision for them involves a moderately paced advance throwing out tons and tons of firepower with every step--and, of course, the ability to quickly maneuver that line via mobile "hard points" (a.k.a., infantry supporting APTs). Drop pods or Valkyries--or really any kind of deepstriking--doesn't fit in my imagination. Not that my imagination is definitive of anyone else's perspective, of course. The best I can offer here is Faith & Fire.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: I don't quite get your point regarding the Sisters' role and motive. Could you explain in greater depth?

Putting it simply:
The Sororitas have no goals or aims outside of the Ecclesiarchy's goals. The Sororitas are intended to be the way that the Ecclesiarchy enforce their will and their aims.

It's why the Sisters aren't really a "spearhead" unit or anything you see on the frontline fighting against the Tyranids or the Tau or Eldar.
The Ecclesiarchy has them defending the Shrineworlds or the Ecclesiarchy's VIPs, who are afforded at times an entire Order as bodyguards.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

I agree, but the problem is the Aquila Lander can only hold six models IIRC. It'd have to be significantly changed to make a proper orbital lander craft for the Sisters.

Seven, actually. One character and a retinue of "up to six".
But digressing, because it's not a combat landing craft but a diplomatic vehicle.

Manchu wrote:I really think the last thing Sisters need is a flying unit. One of the first things they need is a more accommodating APT.

Agreed. Just because Imperial Guard have Valkyries or Blood Angels have Stormravens(which was an asinine addition, period) doesn't mean every single army list needs one flier being castrated to become a skimmer with ridiculous rules.

Melissia wrote:I disagree. I find that I need SOME way for Sisters to get from orbit to the ground, especially if they need to deploy rapidly in a combat zone. Currently that is a HUGE fluff hole for the Sisters-- how they get from planet to planet can be explained easily, but how they manage to deploy into a combat zone from orbit? Not so easily.

Uh, actually it's been stated that they use things very similar to Aquila Landers actually.

But they don't y'know, fly them right to the combat zone like Marines do with Thunderhawks or Stormravens for surgical assaults on specific targets--they gather their strength, and then strike in overwhelming force once they've located a target or been fed the information on where their targets are.

Manchu wrote:Do we really need a unit to explain this? I mean, we don't worry about it with the Guard either. (Sandy Mitchell has them coming down a regiment at a time in some instances--aboard one damn ship!) As cool as the mythical plastic Thunderhawk might sound, I'm not eager to see Imperial Aeronaticus incorporated into 40k.

Well, the unit's actually been named for Guard at least =P The "mass conveyers" are what can haul whole regiments, including Armoured Companies even.
Then there's pinnaces and lighters which can ferry squads or equipment, etc.

But yes, you're right. It's unnecessary and seems to be wanted as a "But someone else has it why can't I!"

Manchu wrote:Also, rapid deployment may be something Sisters are not good at. My vision for them involves a moderately paced advance throwing out tons and tons of firepower with every step--and, of course, the ability to quickly maneuver that line via mobile "hard points" (a.k.a., infantry supporting APTs). Drop pods or Valkyries--or really any kind of deepstriking--doesn't fit in my imagination. Not that my imagination is definitive of anyone else's perspective, of course. The best I can offer here is Faith & Fire.

Fits about with how I've envisioned them, to be honest. At least if "APT" is an acronym for "Armored Personnel Transport". The Repressors, Immolators and the like all point very much towards how they behave in combat:
A slow, methodical advance, scorching the ground before them and leaving nothing but cinders and ash behind.

Half question half answer.

Marines have their own ships and such, which explains the standard thunderhawk and drop pod ness.

Guard on the other hand use countless varieties of landing and insertion craft.

Now the Sisters are Ecclesiarchy so they may all be standardized like the Marines, but I don't recall them having standard ships and such since the apostasy. Is that accurate? If so then this whole gap is really moot. They use whatever Imperial Navy drop ships are available.

As this is a Witch Hunters, and thereby also lumping SoB with the inquisition, another angle would be inquisitorial dedicated ships and their mode of transport. This I do not know myself...

You could also say that they can use rapid deployment not just when it might be tactically prudent to the Sister in charge, but also when their is someone other than a sister at the helm, which is a much more often occurrence than say a non marine commanding marines.

Consider this thread on its final warning.

I have just removed a slew of posts from various people which, while not outright flaming, were wandering off into posting about the poster instead of the topic.

Keep it on topic. Address the topic, not the poster.

Rule Number #1 is be polite.

My post was nothing but polite insaniak, detailing exactly what my POV is in a calm explanatory manner. It was not insulting. It was not rude.

Deleting it was a mistake and I take offence to it. It is over-moderating, something you should not do, yet is something you (and KK and reds8n) continue to do. Actually, no, that's inaccurate. Had KK found this thread before you did, he'd've just locked it instantly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Rule Number #1 is be polite.

My post was nothing but polite insaniak, detailing exactly what my POV is in a calm explanatory manner. It was not insulting. It was not rude.

Whether or not it was intended that way, it was the sort of comment that can be taken as a personal snipe, it was off-topic, and it added nothing to the thread. So it was removed.

If you have something to contribute to the thread that is actually on topic, feel free. If you have an issue with Dakka's moderation, take it up with Yakface. If you have an issue with another user, put them on your ignore list and move on.

Kanluwen wrote:The Sororitas have no goals or aims outside of the Ecclesiarchy's goals. The Sororitas are intended to be the way that the Ecclesiarchy enforce their will and their aims.

I will have to concede this point with one major caveat, which itself throws something of a bone to the Inquisition fans: Adpeta Sororitas is not merely the de jure Ecclesiarchy army. Rather, it seems to fill that position pretty regularly on a de facto basis because it is the only major religious order allowed to organize under arms. That said, they are not rote servants of the Cardinals (although the Ecclesiarch himself certainly has some sort of jurisdiction over them) so much as they respond to Cardinals as the legitimate religious authority in their shared faith. As soon as the Cardinal oversteps his bounds or shows any signs of heterodoxy, they revert to what their purpose has been (according to C:WH at least) ever since the overthrow of Vandire--i.e., traitor killers. This shade of fluff is what allowed GW to fold them into the Ordo Hereticus book in the first place. I'd say the primary function of Sisters is to discourage heterodoxy and, in the extreme cases, put down heretics like the dogs they are. And, as I already mentioned, this includes Marines. No wonder they agreed to the Convocation of Nephilim!

Kanluwen wrote:The Repressors, Immolators and the like all point very much towards how they behave in combat: A slow, methodical advance, scorching the ground before them and leaving nothing but cinders and ash behind.

This is exactly what I had in mind, put very vividly as a matter of fact. I think James Swallow also imagined it this way when he was writing Faith & Fire.

See Manchu, but therein lies the caveat that really bothers me:
Do the Sororitas actively question the Cardinals?

Because Vraks drove that point home pretty hard, wherein the Sisters assigned to Mamon and the other Ecclesiarchs that led the heresy there did absolutely nothing--and even ended up as prisoners/sacrifices in the later stages of the Vraksian campaign when the Traitor Legions were opening Daemonic gates.

I never did like how that part in Vraks was written. I think Forge World got that part wrong which isn't to hard to believe since their isn't much info on sisters.

Sorry, they write the fluff--not you.

You don't get to fill in the blanks with what you think is best

If were going to go that way then I move that the codex not be combined due to all the Inquisition infighting.

Despite Inquisitorial infighting, it is still "Inquisition".

The methods may differ, but the goals are generally the same(except for those damn renegades).

Hector Rex a Puritan Inquisitor was willing to work with the Dark Angels but not the sisters of battle. He went out of his way to make sure the sisters didn't interfere and then he executed a bunch of them despite other Inquisitors arguing with him. It was up to the point were other Inquisitors were killing his troops.

@Kanluwen: The problem is that Sisters do not have the authority to excommunicate the faithful. So:

Hoare & McNeill wrote:The regiment is under the sway of a Cardinal declared Excommunicate Traitoris, and will be dealt with as severely as its master. (C:WH p.43 under "Witch Hunters would fight Imperial Guard because:")

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Necrosis wrote:Hector Rex a Puritan Inquisitor was willing to work with the Dark Angels but not the sisters of battle. He went out of his way to make sure the sisters didn't interfere and then he executed a bunch of them despite other Inquisitors arguing with him. It was up to the point were other Inquisitors were killing his troops.

What is this from? Context?

Seige of Vraks part 3.

And Rex did that because of the fact that it was a renegade Deacon and Cardinal, who was chosen for the position by some higher ups in the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. Would you trust anyone sent by the people who fethed up in the first place? Hell no. They're in it to cover their ass, and they'll work just hard enough to avoid drawing attention to themselves--nothing more.

Oh, and that execution of the Sisters you mentioned? Those were Sisters who had been in the process of being prepared to be used as Daemonic vessels and then used to defile the reliquary of a Saint planetside.

They'd have been killed anyways, but the Ordo Hereticus was being a pain in the Ordo Malleus' ass because of the fact that the Ecclesiarchy/Ordo Hereticus' original plan(let the Krieg Siege Division deal with the problem since razing the fortress and reliquary of a recognized Imperial Saint wasn't in the cards) failed miserably and it looked like the Ordo Malleus was going to pull it off.

It's also worth noting that the Dark Angels made it very clear they were there to spite the Ordo Hereticus, which was hollering that if any of the Traitor Legions were taken alive, then they were purview to the Ordo Hereticus' justice not the Dark Angels'.

Piss off the Astartes with political shenanigans at your own risk, them backing an Inquisitorial Lord is enough for the Council of Terra to sit up and take notice it seems.