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Voted GW

We all know that lots of companies exist to make extra parts for 40k, even though they name their parts 'heads for Generic Space Knights' and the like.

Chapterhouse, while they make some nice stuff, have always been pretty cheeky and rubbed what they do in GWs face, so I don't blame GW for being pissed off...

Mr Mystery wrote:But as for a Third Party, Licensed Company. As an idea it's certainly interesting, but I can see a few problems with it. First up. you have to pay for the license. I don't see GW letting that one for for Peanuts. This means it would have to be someone with significant capital. And GW would no doubt want their cut of the money coming in. And the quality would be demanding. Not just any machine, it would have to be of similar quality to GW's. So whilst it's not a bad idea, I'm not sure it's terribly practical.

That's pretty much it.

Although in the midst of all people asking why GW don't go the third-part licensing route, I would be curious as to whether any of the small businesses out there making parts aimed at the GW crowd ever actually asked GW about it...

Did GW ask Fox Studios to make an Aliens board game called SpaceHulk with inferior copies of Giger's Aliens, just to leech on Aliens' popularity?

BTW GW DID go this third party licencing route once, when GW made almost no vehicles and a.o. Forge World USA got a licence. They were too successful, so GW retracted the licence, and in the end even stole the name of the licensee.

insaniak wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Counterquestion: Should all computer game companies sell their games together with their own computer operating system?

If their intention in selling computer software was to encourage diversity, then most certainly they should. I suspect that's not the intention of most video game creators, though.

That would not encourage diversity. By creating a larger barrier for entry it would stifle diversity. Just as suggesting that everyone that wants to make models should have their own game system would do.


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goldlinkdawg wrote:i want gw to win because if they lose they might have to close stores or stop making models and that would be bad

Why would that possibly be the case?

Kroothawk wrote:Did GW ask Fox Studios to make an Aliens board game called SpaceHulk with inferior copies of Giger's Aliens, just to leech on Aliens' popularity?

Funny. GW were almost sued over Genestealers, until they pointed out the entirely subtle differences....like the hunched stand. Four arms. Lack of prehensile tails. Head a totally different shape.

But it's obvious to everyone that Genestealers are blatant copies of Aliens and Space Hulk an Aliens boardgame.

Nothing wrong with being inspired by colleagues, if you add some creative content instead of make an exact copy. Blizzard and GW are famous for using every popular idea present in SciFi or Fantasy, so is the aftermarket. This is standard practice in the SciFi/Fantasy market, with GW creative staff being the first to admit. Creates synergies and wealth of ideas. No problem until managers and lawyers from outside enter the scene and start fighting free exchange of ideas.

Except for what a Space Hulk is (Aliens take place on a planet).

There are of course clear design cues, but interpreted into a very different beast.

Ever seen the first Alien movie? Or the last 30 minutes of Aliens? And saying the corridors are not on a planet but on a huge space ship doesn't make much difference, right?

Kroothawk wrote:But it's obvious to everyone that Genestealers are blatant copies of Aliens and Space Hulk an Aliens boardgame.

Nothing wrong with being inspired by colleagues, if you add some creative content instead of make an exact copy. Blizzard and GW are famous for using every popular idea present in SciFi or Fantasy, so is the aftermarket. This is standard practice in the SciFi/Fantasy market, with GW creative staff being the first to admit. Creates synergies and wealth of ideas. No problem until managers and lawyers from outside enter the scene and start fighting free exchange of ideas.

The only similarity between the two is that it takes place in the future, and it has humans fighting aliens.

Genestealers look nothing like the Xenomorphs. Terminators are nothing like the Marines in Aliens. And the game was designed off of fluff from the Rogue Trader era.

You would have been better trying to draw a comparison between the 2nd Edition Hormagaunts and the Xenomorphs.

Edit: And Dan O'bannons own words. "I didn't steal Alien from anybody. I stole it from everybody!" So it was far from on original concept in the first place.

Kroothawk wrote:Ever seen the first Alien movie? Or the last 30 minutes of Aliens? And saying the corridors are not on a planet but on a huge space ship doesn't make much difference, right?

As I said, clear design cues.

But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares. The only way the Alien/Space Hulk thing could be similar, is if GW had called it 'Aliens, The Game' and everything looked the same.

dietrich wrote:

Polonius wrote:Listen Mr. Fancy Pants lawyer-man, this is about the theiving bastards at chapterhous and the feckless bullies at Games workshop.

If only they would settle it Thunderdome style. Two companies enter, only one company leaves. Might makes right and right makes might.

I would love to see Jervis in the Thunderdome!

@djones520: A ribbed Alien running through space corridors, hunting humans to infect them with genes to create offspring, does that ring a bell?

And O'Bannen doesn't count, as the Alien was designed and copyrighted by the artist H.R. Giger, a very distinctive and original design that has become popular and is often copied.

Mr Mystery wrote:But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares.

This is called aftermarket and not illegal per se.

honestly dont care as long as the models are still bieng made

Kroothawk wrote:@djones520: A ribbed Alien running through space corridors, hunting humans to infect them with genes to create offspring, does that ring a bell?

And O'Bannen doesn't count, as the Alien was designed and copyrighted by the artist H.R. Giger, a very distinctive and original design that has become popular and is often copied.

Mr Mystery wrote:But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares.

This is called aftermarket and not illegal per se.

Your moving the goal posts a bit here. You reference the idea of aliens hunting humans through enclosed spaces, which is something that O'bannen was responsible for writing. And which he blatantly stole the idea from another film made in the 50's.

And the xenomorphs didn't infect the humans. The facehuggers did.

And the whole story behind the genestealers was a hell of a lot more then just kill and spawn. They actually served a role for the Hive Fleets, and the creatures they "spawned" were capable of being sentient. Not just more mindless killers.

Now, as has been pointed out already, this isn't even close to the issue that Chapter House is being litigated for. If GW had created Space Hulk, and actually specifically referenced the Alien franchise, and developed products that were specifically stated for "enhancing" that genre, then you'd be onto something.

But they didn't.

I don't think Chapterhouse are breaking the law, they make additions to an existing product, not replicate it. If it was illegal car companies would sue whoever makes those fluffy dice you hang on the rear view mirror! so for that reason I vote Chapterhouse. Not a fan of their work though to be honest, but meh, whatever floats your boat.

It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

Hence why it would appear GW have not gone after more subtle players in the 'after market'.

Sorry guys, but regardless of whether it's after market or not, CH have effectively stolen IP in the eyes of GW, hence the lawsuit.

Just to run with the alien analogy, what chaptermouse has done is make an aliens film for 20p with the aliens a slightly different shape and have tried to pass it off as a Fox or whoever production. The point here is that all of the other aftermarket producers have had the brains not to directly copy GW art and sell it as if they have the right to make something just because GW don't at that point in time. I bet you any amount of money that if anyone tried doing the same to PP ip the net result would be the same lawsuit.

What I don't get is all the people here who think that 40k is the only sci fi wargame and haven't the faintest idea that there are loads of small companies banging out fantastic games and equally good miniatures.

djones520 wrote:They actually served a role for the Hive Fleets, and the creatures they "spawned" were capable of being sentient. Not just more mindless killers.

Actually, at the point Space Hulk was created there was no connection between GeneStealers and Tyranids.

I voted GW for a few reasons:

1 - I dont know anything about Chapterhouse, personally I could care less about them; however, I know everything about GW and love their games.

2 - I dont want anything to impact GW in a negative way

3 - I will assume that this Chapterhouse company is significantly smaller than GW and im all about the big guy! Crush 'em!

Kroothawk wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:In the words of former British Prime Minister...put up or shut up. Or at least admit you asertation is merely personal opinion?

Well, difficult to give exact numbers of an alternative timeline.
But doubling customer numbers outside UK with standard marketing tools is a piece of cake.
Just ask how many veterans were drawn into 40k by last editions Space Hulk/Space Crusade. MB's marketing worked!
And it's no secret that current creative staff feels hog-tied by higher management.

Need another example: Dissolving Black Industries when their newest product line (Dark Heresy) just sold out before release. Now IIRC second biggest RPG line. Also millions of certain dollars lost for no reason at all. Instead they spend huge resources for keeping sales limited to a small declining niche, firing good people left and right just to prevent natural growth of the market.

Well without knowing how much GW profited from Black Industries as compared to how much they profited from licensing out the RPG means you are pretty much talking out your backside. Do you actually know any of these numbers? I could easily see it being less profitable for them to make the game themselves. It is rather common for businesses to do this.

And doubling customers in any market is never easy...... I mean really?

Mr Mystery wrote:It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

in that case dakka should be shut down, I've seen quite a few people use "copyrighted terms" here... naughty naughty

besides, they dont sell kits, they sell conversion kits, so they aren't stealing customers away from GW, people buy GW products, then buy Chapterhouse products to glue to them.

I truly don't see the problem.

bagley wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

in that case dakka should be shut down, I've seen quite a few people use "copyrighted terms" here... naughty naughty

besides, they dont sell kits, they sell conversion kits, so they aren't stealing customers away from GW, people buy GW products, then buy Chapterhouse products to glue to them.

I truly don't see the problem.

Have you even read the posts from actual lawyers talking about what the potential problems with what CH did? There obviously is at the very least the potential for some very serious issues with what CH did.

brettz123 wrote:Have you even read the posts from actual lawyers talking about what the potential problems with what CH did? There obviously is at the very least the potential for some very serious issues with what CH did.

To be honest, no I haven't. From what I've read so far a lawsuit seems abit over the top, the only problem I can think of is that Chapterhouse could ride on GW's back to build a name for themselves as sculptors, and if they made their own game system GW could possibly lose out a little. But Chapterhouse come across to me as being fans who want to improve a game, not steal from it. but meh, maybe I'm wrong, we'll see what happens... eventually.

bagley wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:It's not the product....it's the use of copyrighted terms etc.

in that case dakka should be shut down, I've seen quite a few people use "copyrighted terms" here... naughty naughty

besides, they dont sell kits, they sell conversion kits, so they aren't stealing customers away from GW, people buy GW products, then buy Chapterhouse products to glue to them.

I truly don't see the problem.

Its not replicating, its using GW's ideas to make their own profit that GW could potentially want to do whether it does or doesn't. Its not Chapter House's ideas and they made it so blatant that is wasn't their idea either.
And the aliens and spacehulk thing is just silly. Genestealers in no way look like xenomorphs. In fact, if you wanna run through this, couldn't chapterhouse be sued by giger for selling alien heads and making money off his idea which they didn't pay for?

bagley wrote:

brettz123 wrote:Have you even read the posts from actual lawyers talking about what the potential problems with what CH did? There obviously is at the very least the potential for some very serious issues with what CH did.

To be honest, no I haven't. From what I've read so far a lawsuit seems abit over the top, the only problem I can think of is that Chapterhouse could ride on GW's back to build a name for themselves as sculptors, and if they made their own game system GW could possibly lose out a little. But Chapterhouse come across to me as being fans who want to improve a game, not steal from it. but meh, maybe I'm wrong, we'll see what happens... eventually.

Well first of all please read the thread and you will see that there are serious legal issues that GW has with Chapterhouse. I don't know which way this will be decided but GW certainly has at the very least an interesting case and has a legitimate chance to win their lawsuit. Most likely they have indeed tried to handle this without a lawsuit but we don't know. Usually companies send cease and desist letters before starting a lawsuit and we have no reason to believe this isn't what happened.

And aside from the legal side of things it really isn't the height of ethics to "ride on GW's back". GW came up with a background for a game that is unique within the miniature business and other people don't just have the right to make money off of them. That is ridiculous. I would be pretty pissed to if I did all that work and some other company started making low quality sculpts that are not as high of quality as what you put out yourself.

A person or a company should have the right to control how their intellectual property is used and for me that is the bottom line. I feel that CH purposefully marketed their inferior quality items in a manner that did dilute the sales of GW and forge world items as well as making it hard for casual gamers or people who may pick them up second hand.

For instance GW / Forgeworld sell these products that CH makes an exact copy of.....

Tactical Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=62&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110189

Assault Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=50&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110190

Flesh Tearer Shoulder Pads
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=63&category_id=31

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod550012a&rootCatGameStyle=

So CH already makes items that GW currently produces. I didn't even count the numbered shoulder pads or the salamander doors for vehicles.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW GW DID go this third party licencing route once, when GW made almost no vehicles and a.o. Forge World USA got a licence. They were too successful, so GW retracted the licence, and in the end even stole the name of the licensee.

That had already been mentioned, with Armorcast. The list also includes Mike Biasi and Epicast. All 4 of those companies were set up (more or less one after the other) to make 40K vehicles under license from Games Workshop.

I would question whether it's really 'stealing the name' when that name is based on your own setting to begin with, though

brettz123 wrote:For instance GW / Forgeworld sell these products that CH makes an exact copy of.....

Tactical Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=62&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110189

Assault Shoulder Pad
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=50&category_id=30

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440338a&prodId=prod1110190

Flesh Tearer Shoulder Pads
http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=63&category_id=31

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod550012a&rootCatGameStyle=

So CH already makes items that GW currently produces. I didn't even count the numbered shoulder pads or the salamander doors for vehicles.

"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

Tactical pad: Hollow vs solid arrow
Assault pad: See above, also no real arrowheads on the assault pads
Flesh Tearer pad: Gem is separate to the symbol on the CH pad, also saw blade has different number of blades.

Salamander/Dragon armour kits: Very little resemblance, if any, between CH's kits and FW's

Numbered pads: Can't actually find any on FW or GW's site.

Dysartes wrote:"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

I wouldn't use the word "stretching", I would use the expression "blatant lie to intentionally harm Chapterhouse".

But I agree: If Games Workshop actually invented the arrow and copyrighted it, many people in the world are in trouble

Exact copy, perhaps not. But given that they are clearly imitating, and have been advertised using the same words, CH have indeed breeched IP quite badly.

Again, it is not so much the shape as the name of the product and it's advertising.

GW demands the moulds to be destroyed, not just the words and advertising to be changed. So they claim that all the products are illegal.
And, as said, Battlefoam also names, categorizes and advertises its products with GW names, not even marking those as trademarks or copyrighted.