Who do you want to win: Chapterhouse or GW?

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**Mr Mystery**

Didn't see that bit.

But yeah, once somethings purpose has been deemed to be 'sell myself by breeching IP' the molds should be destroyed, no?

**Kilkrazy**

UselesswizarD wrote:I hope that both parties can some to an agreement in which Chapterhouse Studios are able to continue providing us with quality third party parts and where GW is able to protect their IP. I think that the world is big enough for the both of them to continue to exist and fuel our hobby.

GW's object is not to protect their IP.

GW's object is to force CH to shut down by the threat of enormously expensive proceedings of which CH might lose a part and thereby incur 100s of thousands of dollars of costs even if they largely win.

The example will also discourage other companies from making add-on parts to GW models.

**Kroothawk**

In other words: "to scare the whole aftermarket out of business by claiming aftermarkets to be illegal per se".

**Dysartes**

Kroothawk wrote:
Dysartes wrote:"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

I wouldn't use the word "stretching", I would use the expression "blatant lie to intentionally harm Chapterhouse".

I was being polite, Kroothawk

Mr Mystery, that point is for the court to decide. As neither of us are IP lawyers, we can't say conclusively either way.

**Mr Mystery**

And yet the court case is one of opinions no?

I'm of the opinion CH knowingly and deliberately used IP not their own to generate profits. Whether people agree with me is not important. It's just an opinion, not a statement of fact.

**Dysartes**

Unfortunately, in both discussions on here regarding the case, peoples' phrasing keeps indicating that opinions are facts. For example:

Mr Mystery wrote:But given that they are clearly imitating, and have been advertised using the same words, CH have indeed breeched IP quite badly.

The quote does not indicate this is your opinion, and anyone looking at that post could take it as gospel. Most of the regular contributors won't, but someone fresh to it could.

With a couple of notable exceptions, none of us are lawyers, and even of the lawyers few are IP/trademark/copyright specialists. While in your opinion (and GW's as well) CH have breached these laws, it is a matter for a court of law to render judgement upon. Until the case has been heard, a judge has made his decision - and any appeals have been exhausted - the facts of the situation are unknown when it comes to guilt or innocence.

And as it looks like the initial filing contains some errors, who knows what the end result will be?

**4M2A**

kilkrazy Wrote
GW's object is not to protect their IP.

GW's object is to force CH to shut down by the threat of enormously expensive proceedings of which CH might lose a part and thereby incur 100s of thousands of dollars of costs even if they largely win.

The example will also discourage other companies from making add-on parts to GW models.

This is why I feel no sympathy for GW. They are taking it so far that the company may be completely destroyed by the costs rather than having to change their names (which is IMO the right solution- CH have made the models and once they remove the names they will no longer be relying on GW). A company the size of CH will have very little effect on GW even if they did sell alternatives. The fact that they mostly sell convertions kits or fill gaps means they have even less of an impact to GW but they do improve the hobby for the customer but GW are still intent on gettiing rid of them.

**Kroothawk**

Mr Mystery wrote:I'm of the opinion CH knowingly and deliberately used IP not their own to generate profits. Whether people agree with me is not important. It's just an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Is it also your opinion that all aftermarket products are illegal and advertising them is a breach of IP? That arrows, fists and dragons in all forms are IP of GW?

**Mr Mystery**

Funnily enough, that's a statement I've never actually made.

But good attempt at putting words in my outh.

Once again, it is not the product per se, but their use of IP that is the big problem, and the reason CH in particular don't have a leg to stand on.

Anyone could make scale guns to fit Space Marines, of any particular design. It only gets a bit ropey when they are either recast from existing GW sculpts (or indeed anyone elses for that matter) or when you advertise them using the terminology etc GW does. A Bolter you could not do, Heavy Rifle you could do, and so on. This is where CH appear to have got things wrong.

**Dysartes**

Mr Mystery wrote:Funnily enough, that's a statement I've never actually made.

This would be why Kroot appears to be asking you two questions, Mr Mystery, rather than stating you said those things previously.

**Kroothawk**

... but a good attempt at putting words in my mouth

**Mr Mystery**

Well, seeing he's been pretty determined to dance around the point that CH very much appear to have breeched IP, in favour of portraying GW as some vicious corporate entity.... My suspicions are not unjustified.

**Khestra the Unbeheld**

Like it or not, Chapterhouse has indeed violated GW's legal property rights as outlined in the Legal section on GW's site, specifically the use of terms and symbols they invented. Depending on the terms of the suit and what GW claims, then Chapterhouse is very liable and will most likely be found guilty under US copyright law. GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

**Dysartes**

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:Like it or not, Chapterhouse has indeed violated GW's legal property rights as outlined in the Legal section on GW's site, specifically the use of terms and symbols they invented. Depending on the terms of the suit and what GW claims, then Chapterhouse is very liable and will most likely be found guilty under US copyright law. GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

This does ignore the point, Khesrta, that a lot of what GW say on their Legal pages is probably unenforcable - I think Polonius and one of the other lawyers have had something to say regarding this in the other thread.

Generally speaking - just because GW says something does not make it binding in a court of law, as I understand it.

**Mr Mystery**

No, but it does make it unwise in the extreme to test that particular water, as I suspect GW know a lot more than we do about Copyright and IP Laws.

It's kind of like when I was a kid. My Mum told me never to kick someone in the 'nads, as they could wind up paralysed. Not sure I entirely believed her at any point, but I sure wasn't keen on putting it to the test, just in case.

**Trench-Raider**

In other words: "to scare the whole aftermarket out of business by claiming aftermarkets to be illegal per se".

"Quoted for truth" as the kiddies say.
This is 100% correct. Let's face it, folks. GW wants the aftermarket accesories market to go away. GW wants the bit selling market to go away. GW wants the second hand miniature market to go away. This whole thing with CH is just their taking advantage of an admittedly foolish over-step by CH to attack the larger problem by making an example of a smaller company.

Thus, I really do hope GW loses their a-- on this one.

TR

**Mr Mystery**

And what company wouldn't want all money that might be spent on it's products, actually spent on it's products?

I really don't get why people single out GW are some evil entity, when it doesn't do anything any other company would do or has done in a given situation?

**Cadichan Support**

I want chapterhouse to win because I hate GW.
Waiting for ensuing flame war...

**Kroothawk**

Mr Mystery wrote:Well, seeing he's been pretty determined to dance around the point that CH very much appear to have breeched IP, in favour of portraying GW as some vicious corporate entity.... My suspicions are not unjustified.

I asked you to give an example for an IP breach in the products that justify all CH moulds to be destroyed, but you seem not be able to give one.

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

Mr Mystery wrote:No, but it does make it unwise in the extreme to test that particular water, as I suspect GW know a lot more than we do about Copyright and IP Laws.

Are we talking about the same GW that is obviously sueing the wrong sculptor for the super heavy?

BTW Ford doesn't sue Goodyear for mentioning which tire fits which car. So GW is doing something special.

**Mr Mystery**

No, they really aren't. As far as I'm aware, Ford do not make their own tyres, and the size of wheel on most production cars is pretty standardised. Thus you are now comparing apples to oranges. Neither are Goodyear trying to put 'Ford' on their tyres.

As for the destruction of the moulds, I did indeed comment on that. Here's a little clarifcation. If/when GW win this case, they will have proven the intent of CH to trade off their IP, and that their copyright was infringed deliberately. Thus the moulds should either be handed over to GW, or destroyed. What would CH do with them anyway once they're out of business? Nobody in their right mind would buy such tainted goods (remember, this is in the case that GW win the erm...case.) so they become effectively worthless, and perhaps I'm being melodramatic here, but I doubt anyone would really want to keep the mechanism of their downfall kicking about.

My statement is that the ordered destruction of the moulds and masters made by CH wouldn't be out of the question. Whether I personally feel that's going to far is immaterial.

**Kroothawk**

Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

**calgar 2.5**

GW all the way. They created the game, so they should defend the IP.

**Amaya**

calgar 2.5 wrote:GW all the way. They created the game, so they should defend the IP.

So making products that fit to GW models is violating their IP?

**Mr Mystery**

Kroothawk wrote:Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

GW does indeed own IP on Salamanders, Eldar, Space Wolves, Flesh Tearers etc. All of which CH had no hesitance in slapping on their products. If they hadn't done this, then fair enough. But they have. It's the same reason Ford cannot make a car, and call it an Impreza, and Subaru couldn't return the favour with a Focus of their own. They both make cars, they both have their own branding.

CH and GW both make parts and kits of models. CH decided to use someone elses branding. Simple as.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, I'm beginning to think several posters are being deliberately obtuse. Even tempted to go through this entire thread and count the times I and others have pointed out it's not that they produce bits, but how they have gone about naming and designing them.

**nels1031**

Its quotes like this that probably got CH in trouble, taken from the Tyranid Wave 2 thread from a few weeks back.

In regards to what Tyranid models may be coming in summer 2011, Chapterhouse had this to say:

I dont think we have to worry at all about the Tervigon kit coming out.

I chose to cater to those tyranid players who now have carnifex kits doing nothing (pretty much all of them). Our kits are perfectly legal at GW sanctioned events, since they incorporate GW parts (for those who care about such petty rules).

I bet the Tervigon kit from GW will be much more expensive as well, I am thinking in the $60 price range.

As for the Ymagrl Stealer, well, I rather have the ability to just use genestealers with all their poses and put on 3 different heads rather then 1 $15 GW metal model.

I will be interested if GW even comes out with a spore pod, but I doubt it at this time. While ours is the price of a Spacemarine Droppod, $35, and larger (to carry a carnifex of course).

I just think its not prudent to use the whole "can it be used in a GW sanctioned tournament" when GW rarely has any of its own tournaments anymore, and even the ones ran by the large cons, Adepticon, Wargamescon, Novacon, could care less if you are using 3rd party products.

We are releasing our own "Doom" model next week, and its larger then the Zoanthrope model, metal, single piece and I think we will only charge $20.00 at the most.

In any case, these are unsubstantiated rumors, for some reason I dont believe there will be a 2nd wave of tyranids...

To me it seems like CH went from being an aftermarket upgrade bits maker to wanting to be a straight up competitor by making models that are clearly GW "creations". In this quote, they are profiting from making models that are quite obviously directly inspired by GW artwork, themes and ideas. This is like an aftermarket company making tires/exhausts/anything that can be used for Ford(or any carmaker that fits your fancy) and then turning around and making a car that Ford plans to make in 2012, based off of Fords own concept art. That wouldn't even make it to the factory floor. And if it did, you know damn well the automaker would dominate that aftermarket company.

To be clear, I may come off as harsh on CH with some of the things I said in this thread or the other, but I by no means want to see anyone lose their job/business. But at the same time, there are rules to businesses that need to be followed and it seemed to me that they broke them or skirted so close to breaking, that they must now face the consequences.

And happy new year everyone!

**calgar 2.5**

Amaya wrote:
calgar 2.5 wrote:GW all the way. They created the game, so they should defend the IP.

So making products that fit to GW models is violating their IP?

No, creating kits, and using GW names for said kits is violating the IP. There is a reason other companies such as Scibor, and Maxmini use generic names for their kits, instead of names like "Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons Shoulder Pads".

**Amaya**

Eactly. They crossed the line and should be hit for that infringement. Nothing wrong with making conversions/add ons.

**Mr Mystery**

Hell, GW even have a pretty strong claim to the term 'pre-heresy' which CH have used. Again it's a clear indication that CH intentionally used someone elses IP to help promote their models.

**Amaya**

That's bull, pre-Heresy can refer to a lot more than the Horus Heresy.

**Mr Mystery**

Name one.