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thats ok JD i completely missed what you had said im sorry, and thats all good about the feedback etc i wasnt quite sure what you were wanting the lists for but i jumped at the chance to build one lol, all good

sorry for the inconvienience

@JustDave
Thanks for your post. Yeah, most of the combinations are counter balanced somewhat by point cost. It’s just that the existence of Thunder Wolf Cavalry throws the idea of point cost as a balance tool out the window. I reckon this is where list building and play testing comes into practice (there’s a lot of cheap stuff in the codex to counter balance strong expensive stuff). In order to find issues, the list building will need to revolve around the strong customisable units such as terminators, princes, dreadnaughts etc.

Out of all the combinations I posted, the only one I would really worry about the most would be Shadow Lord+Daemonic Visage. The idea of a flying prince with a good chance to render most things in an assault at WS1 somewhat irks me. I think if you were to slightly reduce the synergy between these two upgrades, there would be less room for abuse.

In regards to dreadnaughts, I’d say the issues here could be fixed by altering Fire Frenzy. Currently, the 175 point build above would be a better buy than 2 Oblits, a Defiler or a Tri Las Pred. I like your idea of causing Fire Frenzy to only affect 1 piece of ranged wargear. Be sure to add “(psychic ranged attacks do not account)” to the Fire Frenzy entry as well.

In regards to biker HQs, thanks for the clarification. I thought as much but I wanted to double check in case this was a typo.

I cannot speak to the balance of this codex, but I really like the concept so much. Good work. I'm going to try this out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey, quick question.

for the Land Raider Marauder: do you envision the Marauder Cannon as being a hull-mounted weapon (like the LR Achilles, or Ares) or as a turret mounted weapon?

Thanks again for the feedback candy.man, seriously, it's very helpful and I've seen you provide solid feedback in proposed rules before so it's an opinion I value. I agree with what you're saying though, I shall try to include these combinations in list building. I admit, I'm not usually one to spend a lot of points on a single unit, so I may not be the best person for it, but I'll sure as hell give it a try.

I can understand what you're saying about the Shadow Lord; possibly make it so Visage is an unmodified leadership test or WS1, or simply change visage itself? I agree with what you're saying though, just wondering how to change it...

Well, I've altered Fire Frenzy to not affect Havoc Launcher's or Psychic Powers, which should help balance it at least a bit, but a single ranged weapon may be more suitable, but that might not make 2-ranged weapon dreads (eg. LC/ML) worth it for the risk of Blood Thirst?

Ouze wrote:I cannot speak to the balance of this codex, but I really like the concept so much. Good work. I'm going to try this out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey, quick question.

for the Land Raider Marauder: do you envision the Marauder Cannon as being a hull-mounted weapon (like the LR Achilles, or Ares) or as a turret mounted weapon?

Thanks Ouze, that means a lot, cheers. For the Marauder Cannon, personally I envisage it as a hull-mounted weapon like most Land Raiders. Then again, Turret Mounted could work consider it's based around the Brass Scorpion's Cannon.


Thanks again everyone, I shall update the attached PDF soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rightyhoo, as suggested by candy.man, here's an army list that attempts to abuse the potential number of attacks Khornate Terminator Champions can dish out: what do you think? Too cheap/good for 2000pts?

--- HQ ---

Daemon Prince – Icon of the World Eaters – Mark of Khorne, Wings, Chief Slaughterer, Chaos Mutation – 205pts

--- Elites ---

5 Chaos Terminator Champions – Mark of Khorne, 4 Pairs of Lightning Claws, 1 Chainfist, Chaos Mutation - 295pts
Land Raider – Extra Armour, Frag Maw – 255pts

--- Troops ---

8 Khorne Bezerkers – Skull Champion with Power Fist, Gift of the Gods – 251pts
Rhino Dedicated Transport – Open Topped

8 Khorne Bezerkers – Skull Champion with Power Fist, Gift of the Gods – 251pts
Rhino Dedicated Transport – Open Topped

8 Khorne Bezerkers – Skull Champion with Power Fist, Gift of the Gods – 251pts
Rhino Dedicated Transport – Open Topped

15 Heretics – 2 Meltaguns, Mark of Chaos Undivided – 110pts

--- Heavy Support ---

Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield – 125pts

Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield – 125pts

Chaos Vindicator – Siege Shield – 125pts

1995pts



All units bar the Heretics are viable, tough fast-moving threats which intend to cause target priority problems for the opponent and try to help the Land Raider arrive intact in order to deliver its Terminator cargo who - with the prince within 6" - would get 8 attacks on the charge.
Too powerful? No more threatening than Hammernators? What dya think?

i think it could struggle with anti tank

but otherwise good

@JustDave

Thanks for your reply.

I’m kind of stumped regarding the Shadow Lord as well. When I wrote my earlier post, I tried to think of a good easy fix but was unable to. Individually these upgrades are fine, it is only when they are combined, they have a Mephiston esque “Invincible Gaze of Death” type affect lol. Out of a choice between making daemonic visage not stack with other effects or a rewrite, I’d probably vote for the rewrite. This way daemonic visage can be balanced against use with Shadow Lord and Visions of Chaos. Perhaps reworking Visage into a –X amount to WS/another stat rather than a setting WS to 1. This way, if one were to combine abilities, their effects would not be as potent.

I can see what you’re saying regarding 2 ranged weapon dreads and I must say I overlooked that. The idea of Blood Thirst affecting dual ranged weapon dreads has been bugging me for a while now. What about making Blood Thirst count as Fire Frenzy in the case of a dual ranged weapon dread (or Fire Frenzy counting as Blood Thirst in the case of a dual DCCW dread)? The profile might need a slight point increase but this could make Crazed work a little better (and more entertaining) for specialised weapon builds.

In regards to terminators, the below list looks fine and someone balanced. I’ve built a few test lists that weren’t posted here similar to the one below although I used regular CSM and generic lesser daemons instead of Berserkers and Heretics to mitigate the cost of the terminator champion death squad unit.

As a side note, I’ve been trying to think of cheesy combinations and I thought of a list revolving around deep striking terminator champions using both Abaddon and Guidance of Chaos.

Decent of Terminators
Abaddon: 290

5x terminator Champions with combi weapons and Guidance of Chaos: 230
5x terminator Champions with combi weapons and Guidance of Chaos: 230
5x terminator Champions with combi weapons and Guidance of Chaos: 230

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns, power fist champion, mark of chaos undivided and rhino transport: 235

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns, power fist champion, mark of chaos undivided and rhino transport: 235

10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 melta guns, power sword champion, mark of chaos undivided and rhino transport: 235

Predator with Lascannon sponsons: 120
Predator with Lascannon sponsons: 120
Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsons: 85

Total: 2000
The list has its weaknesses but at the same time, it wouldn’t be a fun list to play against lol. 1D6 deepstriking shenanigans FTW!

I'm back, been busy recently so haven't been able finish this off, but now it should be able to receive my near-undivided attention and get it finished. Just going to read through it a couple more times myself, wait for a certain person to get back to me on the design and in the mean time hopefully LOTS of people will be able to provide feedback and comments, positive or negative. If people want to spread the word, that'd be grrreat!


@ Candy.man, thanks again for the feedback man. Seriously, it's REALLY helpful.

That's an idea about the Shadow Lord/Visage. Maybe -1 attacks? Many units these days are fearless anyway, -1 WS is a bit weak and -1 attacks could be a bit powerful, but would still be less so than WS1. I was hoping the balance would come from the widespread fearless units and the limited access to this ability, but I do agree with what you're suggesting, glad you can also see how I'm struggling for an easy fix though! I'll give this more thought when I'm more awake, but -1 attacks (doesn't stack, minimum of 1) might be more appropriate?

I dunno, I personally liked the effects of crazed; it helps balance the dreads, or it can help enhance them. I think if it was made so fire frenzy can count as blood thirst vice versa it could require a serious points increase as you'd be twice as likely to get twice as many shots etc! As it is, it adds a bit of randomness to them which can hinder your dread and plans, but unlike before can't hurt yourself or (proverbially and literally) shoot your plans in the foot? Chaos armies always have a bit of a random side to them, it's just it can pay off too. That's one of the reasons I like Gift of the Gods (wargear) so much; it can potentially allow your 150pts character to re-roll saves, or it can turn them into a 35pts Spawn!
as ever of course, your thoughts would be appreciated on this matter...

Nice list man, I was intending to make a similar one! I'm not sure whether I believe it could be too powerful or under-powered? That's probably a good sign I guess, but I'm going to have to look it over a couple more times to see if I can decide. I'm considering adding +5pts to each Terminator Champion power, but they're pretty expensive on top of the 50pts upgrade all-ready.
Thanks again candy.man.

As ever guys, all feedback is appreciated. It's almost finished. Cheers.

I have just started reading through the latest PDF version. it looks great!!! I will have to print it out and nip to Staples to get it bound to make it easier to read i think.

Regarding the iron Warriors Icon. Does BS6 make the weapon twin linked? So a Basilisk would be able to re-roll scatter?


Quick notes from a quick read (i apologise if some of these have been covered already):


Chaos Lord - according to the list you coudl equip him with a pistol/boltgun, a CCW/power weapon etc AND a combi weapon. Shouldnt the combi weapon be listed withthe weapon options?

Chaos Champion - See above

Obliterator - Must chose 1 weapon from each group. What happend if the unit is out of range of all the weapons in group 2? Does it just not fire? Presumably if you want assault you would have to choose the P.Fist or just not assault?





LOVE the Chaos Theory psyker power. Proper chaotic.

Thanks man, means a lot! Well, I wouldn't advise getting it bound etc just yet as it's not quite it's final version, but it's almost there!

That's not the Iron Warriors Icon, it's the Warsmith rule, but yes, it would make weapons BS6.

I like the idea of -1A. Not overly powerful yet effective enough to encourage its use (especially in the hands of a shadow visage lord holding a power maul).

In regards to Dreads, your current fire frenzy rules are still good. I am just of the opinion that specialised dreads get shafted a wee bit with crazed (in situations such as a dual ranged weapon dread rolling blood rage). I personally reckon that it would still be balanced out as a player could still get fire frenzy/blood rage when they do not need it (resulting in a dual ranged dread doing nothing or a CC dread blood raging after a Monolith ). The bonus crazed confers aren’t particularly game breaking now that fire frenzy only affects 1 ranged weapon (resulting in an extra 1-2 shots at best). CC dreads would be counter balanced by the rage USR (most like involving the dread raging after inappropriate opponents lol) I can see where you’re going at though and I agree to a certain extent. Perhaps make the opposing crazed result count as “do nothing” in specialised dreads? At the end of the day, the current fire frenzy rules are still adequate and I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they were to remain.

In regards to the terminator list, I think it is a case of being powerful in certain situations. What makes the combo good is that Abaddon can re-roll reserve rolls and allow everyone to deepstrike at the same turn. If the terminators were to arrive early enough and melta/plasma key units, it could be devastating. The terminators themselves would still be a threat as each terminator squad is capable of 20 power weapon attacks on the charge and at least 1 squad would be escorting Abaddon. IG and Thunder Wolf Cavalry heavy Space Wolves would probably laugh at a Decent of Terminators list. If I were to offer an analogy, if would be like JOWW heavy Space Wolves rocking face against nids but getting their asses handed to them by a psychic defence heavy list.

The massive use of Fearless almost makes me wonder why we have a Leadership system in the first place. I approve of the new Shadow Lord/Visage ability. I think there should be an anti-leadership ability, but perhaps not for those.

candy.man wrote:I like the idea of -1A. Not overly powerful yet effective enough to encourage its use (especially in the hands of a shadow visage lord holding a power maul).

OK, -1 attack it (probably) is. Will think about it a bit more, but it's certainly more balanced than WS1...

In regards to Dreads, your current fire frenzy rules are still good. I am just of the opinion that specialised dreads get shafted a wee bit with crazed (in situations such as a dual ranged weapon dread rolling blood rage). I personally reckon that it would still be balanced out as a player could still get fire frenzy/blood rage when they do not need it (resulting in a dual ranged dread doing nothing or a CC dread blood raging after a Monolith ). The bonus crazed confers aren’t particularly game breaking now that fire frenzy only affects 1 ranged weapon (resulting in an extra 1-2 shots at best). CC dreads would be counter balanced by the rage USR (most like involving the dread raging after inappropriate opponents lol) I can see where you’re going at though and I agree to a certain extent. Perhaps make the opposing crazed result count as “do nothing” in specialised dreads? At the end of the day, the current fire frenzy rules are still adequate and I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they were to remain.

I dunno, as ever I of course appreciate the feedback, but I'm thinking I'll keep it as it is. I currently however have the Fire Frenzy affecting ranged weapons, except Havoc Launchers and Psychic Powers (so more than the 1 ranged weapon), meaning that they can also really benefit from fire frenzy as well as be hindered by it (no control over who they shoot) and suffer from blood thirst (although they are still capable in CC), so I personally think it's pretty balanced as it is, particularly with the changes regarding the Dual-ranged weapon, Havoc Launcher, Psychic Power Dread you mentioned before?

In regards to the terminator list, I think it is a case of being powerful in certain situations. What makes the combo good is that Abaddon can re-roll reserve rolls and allow everyone to deepstrike at the same turn. If the terminators were to arrive early enough and melta/plasma key units, it could be devastating. The terminators themselves would still be a threat as each terminator squad is capable of 20 power weapon attacks on the charge and at least 1 squad would be escorting Abaddon. IG and Thunder Wolf Cavalry heavy Space Wolves would probably laugh at a Decent of Terminators list. If I were to offer an analogy, if would be like JOWW heavy Space Wolves rocking face against nids but getting their asses handed to them by a psychic defence heavy list.

Hmmm... Yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying, it could be very situational. I'll probably try to do some re-balancing with the Terminator Champions upgrade costs, but otherwise I think you're right it should be pretty situational. I'll have a closer look and see if I can alter some points or something a bit more. I can only imagine this tactic happening at higher points costs however, which in itself is a balancing factor of sorts. Thanks again C-man!

crazypsyko666 wrote:The massive use of Fearless almost makes me wonder why we have a Leadership system in the first place. I approve of the new Shadow Lord/Visage ability. I think there should be an anti-leadership ability, but perhaps not for those.

Sorry Psyko, I'm not sure I understand what you meant in that last sentence?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The attached PDF has just been updated with the latest version of the PDF Codex. This may well be its finished state.

I'd like to see an ability that lowers leadership or makes passing leadership abilities harder, but it would be better if it were a minor ability that could be taken as an extra, rather than one that defines what the legion can do by way of the HQ. Does that make more sense?

Aaah yes, I get what you're saying now. It's a nice idea. Well, the Psychic defense is more 'aggressive' than others (i.e. more than a simple nullification) and I know what you're saying, the 'visage' gift works towards that end slightly. It'd be tricky to implement and it could be odd if armies such as 'crons and 'nids were scared, but I will look into it.

Also, I relocated the rhino in the latest PDF version as I think you(?) requested.

Hell, I thought the whole Dedicated Transports section should be moved behind Fast Attack. If that meant the Rhino and nothing else, then sure.

Well the rhino is the dedicated transports section, which has been moved to just behind troops.

I'm currently thinking of a way to improve the havocs at all; the Codex Devastators have Signum's, the BA's are cheap whilst the SW's are cheap and split-fire, but I'm not really sure what I could add to the Havocs to improve them slightly. I may just take them down to 70pts base, though that'd look a bit odd.

You still have the problem with possessed and MoS.
Currently it doesn't work as intended, due the fact that there is no such thing as rending usr.(Same problem as with Canis)

Just re-word it to something like this:
"Close combat attacks made by possessed unit with MoS gain rending ability as detailed in the rulebook"

Edit: was looking at apparently older version. Point still stands.

I just read half of it, I really love the codex. Great flavor, fun units, if this was the chaos codex i wouldn't have stopped playing them. Well done man, I wish this was the real codex. (I hope GW is watching)

why not give the havoks a built in cover save? it would really make them more survivy

Clauss wrote:I just read half of it, I really love the codex. Great flavor, fun units, if this was the chaos codex i wouldn't have stopped playing them. Well done man, I wish this was the real codex. (I hope GW is watching)

Thank you very much man, the compliment is really appreciated. Comments like that make this worth doing. Cheers.

Devastator wrote:You still have the problem with possessed and MoS.
Currently it doesn't work as intended, due the fact that there is no such thing as rending usr.(Same problem as with Canis)

Just re-word it to something like this:
"Close combat attacks made by possessed unit with MoS gain rending ability as detailed in the rulebook"

Edit: was looking at apparently older version. Point still stands.

Yep, has been changed. Cheers Devastator.

Tyranic Marta wrote:why not give the havoks a built in cover save? it would really make them more survivy

Not a bad idea - other than survivy not being a word - although I'm not sure how this could be implemented fluff-wise and wouldn't benefit those in a transport tbh...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/366288.page
have a look at ghosts, and SS power armour, maybe yopu could implement something similar, i really dont mind if you take the idea

Quick question -

Have you considered giving Lucius a 4++ instead of 5++ in close combat to represent his ability to dodge and weave during combat? Thinking along the lines of Ragnar from the space wolves and wyches from dark eldar. Everything else of him looks great, for who he is, and I appreciate that someone else also thinks he should be reworked to show his dueling prowess

Now, correct me if I am wrong, or this has already been brought up, but with these rules, would I be able to play Black Legion, and still take the other unique characters (Such as Ahriman, Lucius, etc)? With my quick glance at that section of your pdf, I got some mixed signals, so I would like some clarification

loving seeing the interest in lucius hes a fav of mine too and its a shame hes not better imo,

Amanax wrote:Quick question -

Have you considered giving Lucius a 4++ instead of 5++ in close combat to represent his ability to dodge and weave during combat? Thinking along the lines of Ragnar from the space wolves and wyches from dark eldar. Everything else of him looks great, for who he is, and I appreciate that someone else also thinks he should be reworked to show his dueling prowess

Now, correct me if I am wrong, or this has already been brought up, but with these rules, would I be able to play Black Legion, and still take the other unique characters (Such as Ahriman, Lucius, etc)? With my quick glance at that section of your pdf, I got some mixed signals, so I would like some clarification

Thanks for the query and compliment Amanax; as it is Lucius has a 5++ in close combat but a 4++ against attacks by Independent Characters, which I hope would reflect his duelling prowess?

Apologies for the mixed signals, as it stands characters (except for Vahlinhurst and Cypher/Fabius) have 'Icon of _______' [I.e. Icon of the Black Legion for Abaddon] meaning that their warband selection required for a HQ (by taking an icon of _______ ) is already selected? Does that clarify things for you?

Aha! I must have an older version of your pdf, as the one I was looking at had him as just a 5++.

As for the IC, if I'm reading it correctly, I could then take say, both Abaddon and Lucius and the rest of the army would be able to choose between Black Legion and Emperor's Children, or must your HQ choices be of the same warband?

Yep, you're reading it correctly.
They already have their warband chosen for them, are HQ's and therefore allow the rest of the army to choose between either warband, so yes.

I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Hahaha! Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's great knowing people are using it too; thanks a lot! Thank him for me too!
If you could provide any feedback judging by that battle, that'd be appreciated also, thanks.

So, I have been reading through the newer versions of your codex Dave, and I was shocked to see that you have priced Daemon Princes so high. I agree they should have been increased slightly, but to get what we have already, you are looking at a drastically increased price. What about dropping base price down to 130 instead of 160? Or do you feel that the extra 30 points is necessary?

On another note however, on the rework for the possessed. I wish I had the models to test them with... I might need to find myself a play dummy to see how they do


I am, also excited to see the Fabius re-work. I always wanted to run a fabius army, but the HQ slot was a bit much. Great thinking on making him elite instead

Whilst yes, they have had a significant price increase, this is to help differentiate them from being an 'auto-include' type of choice and a result of an improved invulnerable save (they're Daemons afterall). My intentions were that the Daemon Princes could be a significant investment, potentially being rock-hard in that you get what you pay for, but now they hopefully don't over-shadow the Chaos Lord but are a separate option. So yes, I do feel a 60pts increase over a lord is necessary IMHO, for that you get +1WS, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1 Inv. & Monstrous Creature (which has its good and its bad). Does that sound more reasonable to you in that light Amanax? Honestly, I REALLY appreciate the feedback, but hopefully you can understand my decision?

Thank you very much regarding the possessed and fabius, the possessed in particular I'm really happy with; they should be the rock-hard assault unit they're supposed to be, but not cheap and potentially unreliable. Or you can spend extra points to make them reliable but arguably worse...
Thanks a lot man. New (possibly) final update coming in soon!