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Just Dave wrote:Yep, has been changed.

Huh? Pdf still has that problem (at least for RaW) /nit-pick.

Btw do you mind if i do an army builder file for excel for your codex?

Yeah, but I haven't updated the PDF with the latest version just yet!

What dya mean?

Just Dave wrote: Whilst yes, they have had a significant price increase, this is to help differentiate them from being an 'auto-include' type of choice and a result of an improved invulnerable save (they're Daemons afterall). My intentions were that the Daemon Princes could be a significant investment, potentially being rock-hard in that you get what you pay for, but now they hopefully don't over-shadow the Chaos Lord but are a separate option. So yes, I do feel a 60pts increase over a lord is necessary IMHO, for that you get +1WS, +2S, +1T, +1W, +1 Inv. & Monstrous Creature (which has its good and its bad). Does that sound more reasonable to you in that light Amanax? Honestly, I REALLY appreciate the feedback, but hopefully you can understand my decision?

Thank you very much regarding the possessed and fabius, the possessed in particular I'm really happy with; they should be the rock-hard assault unit they're supposed to be, but not cheap and potentially unreliable. Or you can spend extra points to make them reliable but arguably worse...
Thanks a lot man. New (possibly) final update coming in soon!

That is exactly what I wanted to hear A rational explanation that justified the over the top price increase (Compared to what they were). The extra durability from the 4++ plus the built in psyker rules (With the exception of khorne) for 25 points is excellent. However, I do feel that the psychic powers could be altered. I have always been a fan of paying for the powers (Which is sadly disappearing) as it allowed for a more accurate point cost for the model. A more powerful ability costing more, and a weaker one costing less. However, with the flat cost (Being equivalent to the older "powerful" psychic powers) I wonder if some of the lower powers would ever be used. Have you considered changing it to the older system to give more variety and point options?


Unreliable is... not exactly what I am thinking.
I am hoping to test a squad of possessed with attached Fabius, give them all enhanced warriors (for S6 T6 3+ 5++ FNP) and then mark them with chaos undivided to try and push for the higher rolls... >_> Sounds fun to me <_<

PDF updated with latest version. No major changes, just slight alteration in some points costs and clarification etc.


@Amanax
Thanks, I'm glad it all makes sense to you!
Well, the Psyker rules are to try to keep it in-line with the current trends, as was my intentions behind this; to bring it up to date with 5th edition. I understand what you're saying about the psychic powers costing points, but it can work for balancing also. I know what you're saying however; though I have tried to bring all the powers fairly in-line (of what would be around a 25pts/Warptime mark) as things like Doombolt/Gift have been buffed.

Well, that's nice and everything, but enhanced warriors only applies to 'regular' Chaos Space Marines.

Missed the "Note on terminology" >_>

You sly devil you. I see what you did there.

Are you sure the pdf file is updated? I just downloaded it, and it is the same version (according to name) as the previous one. V.12 if I recall correctly.

Yeah, it's a different one. I didn't change the name as I had it has V.12 (penultimate), so I figured if I change it to V.13 it's no longer penultimate! Kinda shot myself in the foot there, but still... Never know, it could be the final one.

Fair enough

I'll be trying to print up a version of your pdf tomorrow should you be alright with that, and go ahead and give it a test run in the next few nights

Man, if you could that would be AWESOME. Thanks amanax, that's really appreciated and any feedback is more than welcome. Cheers man.

looks rad!

I think you should keep this project open for a while longer. You never know what playtesting will reveal, and it's still gaining a lot of interest.

Very true, but I guess I just want the final thing 'published' as soon as I can really... It's definitely in the final stretch though.

Just Dave wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Hahaha! Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's great knowing people are using it too; thanks a lot! Thank him for me too!
If you could provide any feedback judging by that battle, that'd be appreciated also, thanks.

Everything seemed pretty balanced, actually. He was running a Night lords army with a bunch of raptors in five man units (with that free champion, no less), and I was running "codex" plague army. He beat me, but it had a lot to do with the improved raptors! That's fine though. They definitely SHOULD be that good.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I have to say, Dave, I'm in love with this codex. I was playing against a guy using it in my GW the other day! You're getting really popular

Hahaha! Thank you, that's really appreciated. It's great knowing people are using it too; thanks a lot! Thank him for me too!
If you could provide any feedback judging by that battle, that'd be appreciated also, thanks.

Everything seemed pretty balanced, actually. He was running a Night lords army with a bunch of raptors in five man units (with that free champion, no less), and I was running "codex" plague army. He beat me, but it had a lot to do with the improved raptors! That's fine though. They definitely SHOULD be that good.

Great! I'm really glad that someone's been using it and that you had fun doing so, despite losing! Wonderful! Cheers!

Side note: The 5-man free champion only applies to the unit 'Chaos Space Marines', rather than all units. See the 'note on terminology' at the very beginning of the special rules section. On this note I am thinking of changing the name of the standard Chaos Space Marine unit to avoid confusion...
Thanks Samus.

Love what you've done with the CSM, the fluff really shows!

I've been writing potential lists from it for a few days & a friend has used it in battle (1500 I believe, against Vanilla SM); he lost one & won the other though he didn't give many details. Iirc he used a previous version but, eh, it proves this fandex isn't an auto-win ;D.

I would like to say however that one thing is poking me in the eye (& only one thing mind!) & that's the Chaos Termies. While a great all round unit, in terms of fluff I wouldn't use them in a Death Guard force. Even though they (used to?) pride themselves on their Terminators, I'd have to take 5 for a Gift...when I'd prefer to run them as 7 for, well obvious reasons.

As I said it's not much but I thought I'd speak my mind :3.

Chaos_Duality wrote:Love what you've done with the CSM, the fluff really shows!

I've been writing potential lists from it for a few days & a friend has used it in battle (1500 I believe, against Vanilla SM); he lost one & won the other though he didn't give many details. Iirc he used a previous version but, eh, it proves this fandex isn't an auto-win ;D.

I would like to say however that one thing is poking me in the eye (& only one thing mind!) & that's the Chaos Termies. While a great all round unit, in terms of fluff I wouldn't use them in a Death Guard force. Even though they (used to?) pride themselves on their Terminators, I'd have to take 5 for a Gift...when I'd prefer to run them as 7 for, well obvious reasons.

As I said it's not much but I thought I'd speak my mind :3.

Great! Thanks A LOT for the feedback man. Don't worry about speaking your mind, honestly. All feedback is welcome.

In regards to the termies, I think that's understandable, however I fear that they could be in danger of becoming OP at sizes larger than 5-men IMHO. It could also be a difficult rule to implement I suspect. I'd have to recommend that you just go for 5 (which doesn't break the fluff, and potential FNP is pretty fluffy) or just go for a standard unit of 7. Apologies.

Thanks a lot for the feedback man.

You could always take a unit of five, and then attach two characters to it, making it seven... >_>

Just bumping the thread and showing off one of the more unique army lists - the Alpha Legion.

HQ - Chaos Lord - Icon of the Alpha Legion - Wings, 2x Lightning Claw, Alpha Lord - 180pts


Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Grenade Launcher - Champion w/ Power Weapon - 227pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts


Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts


1496pts


Good? Bad? Too Good? Thoughts?

Just Dave wrote:Just bumping the thread and showing off one of the more unique army lists - the Alpha Legion.

HQ - Chaos Lord - Icon of the Alpha Legion - Wings, 2x Lightning Claw, Alpha Lord - 180pts


Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Flamer - Champion w/ Power Fist - 217pts

Troops - 7 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Infiltrate) - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 3x Meltagun, 2x Grenade Launcher - Champion w/ Power Weapon - 227pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts

Troops - 10 Operatives - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Meltagun - Aspiring Champion - 110pts


Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - Icon of the Alpha Legion - 2x Missile Launcher, 2x Autocannon, Mark of Chaos Undivided - 145pts


1496pts


Good? Bad? Too Good? Thoughts?

Too good! Four troops choices (totalling 10 melta guns and four flamers), 6 missile launchers, 6 autocannons, and a flying dude! You have absolutely no tank, but then again, you don't really need it. Very nice.

I dunno, won't the Lord get blasted to pieces with no unit to join? Thinking of fighting GK specifically here, but a Paladin based army would be difficult for this one to beat.

Hmmm... I think that the Operatives will need some sort of change made to them; I'll bump up the guns by 5pts each for a start at least. I fear that that list may be too good; I don't want to rely on it being vulnerable to a uncommon build (Paladins), although it may be quite brittle due to low body count...

Been play testing a bit here and there (Still haven't actually been able to print off the codex :( )

I like your fix to abaddon, however I was wondering, did you consider making it just so that his weapon won't rebel at all?

Cool, cheers Amanax! Anything to report from your playtesting if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks man. Yes, yes I did. I decided it's more balanced and fluffy if he weapon still rebelled; it's not as bad as most Daemon Weapons, but it does prevent him from kicking the crap out of everyone he meets, also helps keep him below 300pts. I remember a bit of fluff before where Drach'nyen almost got him killed too, so it's a nice bit of character IMHO. I completely understand what you're saying though.

I haven't found really any post heresy fluff for abaddon, and what I did find he was always in pretty god control of everything he wanted to control, so I figured the blade would be along those lines.

The only reason I suggest it, is exactly for balance issues. The tests we've done have been to see how he compares to other models of his weight class so to speak. So far, he doesn't seem to be earning his 295 points.

Matched up against Draigo, Mephiston, and Nightbringer so far... Personally, I don't feel he is matching up, as he is more expensive then mephiston and draigo. At least his defeat by nightbringer was warnted by being outweighed by 65 points.

I was thinking at least make him equivalent to the Sanguinor from the blood angels (while still keeping him fluffy). he'd lose some things to gain others, like losing out on the 3++ and gain the ability to attach to squads, lose jump infantry statis to gain...? etc etc)

What do you think?

I love it, very very good, not a huge fan of warbands, but you have dont the best version ive seen of them so far.

Although one of the reasons im bitter about the warbands as it completely wrecks my alpha legion codex!

All I know is that after the heresy Abaddon lost his arms somewhere on Cadia. Poor guy. =C

Maybe you could let him lose one of his arms instead of taking a wound! That would be fluffy! (Joking, of course.)

He never seems to match up well against the Imperial character specifically made to be better for the same points cost, Mr. Power Fist, either. What if instead of taking all of his attacks in one turn, he could make one with his sword that counted as Strength 10 and automatically inflicted Instant Death/ Armour Penetration. The Strength 10 is just for Eternal Warriors.

Tekeino wrote:I love it, very very good, not a huge fan of warbands, but you have dont the best version ive seen of them so far.

Although one of the reasons im bitter about the warbands as it completely wrecks my alpha legion codex!

Thank you. I know what you're saying though; I'm not a fan of warbands in that I'd dislike such a large, in-codex rule that effectively splits it further, but listening to feedback of the previous Codices and stuff, warbands seemed the way to go. I did decide however that I wouldn't want warbands to restrict or force the player to do anything; ultimately it's to give them a nudge in the right direction and enable them to be as fluffy on un-fluffy as they like. That's also why I included the optional special rule for each; to allow them to be more characterful to their warband/legion if they wanted, but to not force them too.
I must admit, I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out.

Sorry man, you can just do your Codex should you want to anyway, of course. It could just be fun (if time consuming)!

Amanax wrote:I haven't found really any post heresy fluff for abaddon, and what I did find he was always in pretty god control of everything he wanted to control, so I figured the blade would be along those lines.

The only reason I suggest it, is exactly for balance issues. The tests we've done have been to see how he compares to other models of his weight class so to speak. So far, he doesn't seem to be earning his 295 points.

Matched up against Draigo, Mephiston, and Nightbringer so far... Personally, I don't feel he is matching up, as he is more expensive then mephiston and draigo. At least his defeat by nightbringer was warnted by being outweighed by 65 points.

I was thinking at least make him equivalent to the Sanguinor from the blood angels (while still keeping him fluffy). he'd lose some things to gain others, like losing out on the 3++ and gain the ability to attach to squads, lose jump infantry statis to gain...? etc etc)

What do you think?

Really? Damn. I know when people did 1 on 1's before (with the existing character stats) Abaddon would come out top, admittedly however this was just after the Space Wolves were released, meaning there was no Draigo/Swarm Lord/Mephiston or whomever. I may take him back down to 285pts or I may prevent rebellion as you suggested. Would you mind giving me any more detail on this or doing further play testing if that's not too much to ask man?

I remember a piece of fluff before where Abaddon basically duelled Eldrad Ulthran; he got Eldrad to the floor and was going to finish him off, but Eldrad managed to put the edge of his staff against his neck. The Daemon Sword was trying to get Eldrad and pulled Abaddon towards him; ultimately whilst bringing itself (and therefore Abaddon) closer to Eldrad, it was also pulling Abaddon onto Eldrads spear/staff. In the end, the Chaos Gods effectively plucked abaddon out of there. IIRC this was in a White Dwarf article before which would examine 'heroes and villains'.

Cheers for the food for thought regarding abaddon mate. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

crazypsyko666 wrote:All I know is that after the heresy Abaddon lost his arms somewhere on Cadia. Poor guy. =C

Maybe you could let him lose one of his arms instead of taking a wound! That would be fluffy! (Joking, of course.)

Where did you hear this?!

Yeah, I was going to do a few more character 1 v 1 sometime today, I'll PM you the play by play when I'm done.


Abaddon vs Swarmlord
Abaddon vs Asurmen

Kharn vs Khain (lol)
Kharn vs Grimaldus
Kharn vs Lilith
Kharn vs Eldrad

Should be some good matches

Sweet. Thanks Amanax. Much (much) appreciated man. If you could test Lucius against some that'd be good also/instead, as he's actually designed to take out characters, whereas the other two are supposed to take out anything...

Thanks Amanax, I'm not holding my breath for Abaddon vs. the Swarmlord though, I expect he could take the Sanguinor however...

Yeah... swarmlord is the expected winner in that bout, which is too bad. In my opinion, those two should be on even ground. But his cursed re-roll successful invuln save rule makes that a bit harsh.
Really? I was avoiding the Abaddon v Sanguinor battle because I thought it would be awfully one sided in Sanguinor's side. Maybe I'll have to go re-read his rules to see if I am remembering things incorrectly.


Lucius is planned to go up in the next few days, though I am still not sure who to match him up against. Anyone in particular you want to see if he can handle?
In fact, if there are any characters you want tested out in this fashion against any one in particular, let me know and I'll do my best to fit as many in tonight as I can (Probably will take place early morning for you guys in England though)