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You don't know? Check out http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Abaddon, it's a wiki for all the crazy fanfic stuff they came up with. Some of it's actually really funny, since it's not actually 4chan, but the good stuff from it. (still a lot of NSFW, though).

Abaddon's probably got the funniest fanfics on the web. They cast him as some sort of comical supervillan who always has some new death machine made out of cotton candy or something like that.

As for the arms, a lot of people have had trouble with them breaking off of the model, since they're pretty flimsy, and they like to make fun of that and RAGE.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In all seriousness, perhaps you could illustrate this "saved by the gods" thing by giving Abaddon a 6+ or 5+ FNP-style save for anything once he's on his last wound. This could cancel out rebellions, psychic powers or attacks. It would make him tougher without increasing his attacks further.

Something similar to "Bionics"

OK, well judging from some of the feedback, I'm going to change Abaddon's DW rebellion; finding an almost middle-ground between its current status and the idea of no rebellion. I'm going to change it so it can still rebel, but if it does so it no longer causes a wound (but does loose the effects of the weapon). Sound reasonable to everyone?
I may also change Lucius' sword to re-roll wounds rather than Str5.

Thanks for the HQ comparisons again Amanax, I guess for Lucius I'd probably suggest characters of a similar points level and then tougher characters also. I don't expect him to take out Mephiston or the Swarmlord, but the intention was for him to be skilled against IC's, so most should be a reasonable test. Maybe the likes of Astorath/Dante, Calgar/Sicarius, Grimnar/Ragnar, Asurman/Yriel, Vect/Lelith etc. and/or the guys you suggested for Kharn of course. Cheers man.

A extremely tiny thing, but I though I'd point out that you have written Mark of the Alpha Legion instead of Icon of the Alpha Legion on page 4, at the rules of the Alpha Lord.
Also, you should edit so that Kharns attack rolls of 1 misses if there are no friendly units in the same combat as he is.

Saintspirit wrote:A extremely tiny thing, but I though I'd point out that you have written Mark of the Alpha Legion instead of Icon of the Alpha Legion on page 4, at the rules of the Alpha Lord.
Also, you should edit so that Kharns attack rolls of 1 misses if there are no friendly units in the same combat as he is.

Good spot, I shall change that! Cheers Saint, even minor corrections like that are welcomed.

I'm unsure about changing the Kharn one as surely a roll of 1 is a miss anyway, but I'll change it anyways.

Just Dave wrote:OK, well judging from some of the feedback, I'm going to change Abaddon's DW rebellion; finding an almost middle-ground between its current status and the idea of no rebellion. I'm going to change it so it can still rebel, but if it does so it no longer causes a wound (but does loose the effects of the weapon). Sound reasonable to everyone?
I may also change Lucius' sword to re-roll wounds rather than Str5.

Thanks for the HQ comparisons again Amanax, I guess for Lucius I'd probably suggest characters of a similar points level and then tougher characters also. I don't expect him to take out Mephiston or the Swarmlord, but the intention was for him to be skilled against IC's, so most should be a reasonable test. Maybe the likes of Astorath/Dante, Calgar/Sicarius, Grimnar/Ragnar, Asurman/Yriel, Vect/Lelith etc. and/or the guys you suggested for Kharn of course. Cheers man.

Sounds good. As you saw from the two battles I sent you last night, there wasn't really middle ground. He either owned face, or got it torn off. And both of those matches are cheaper than he is, and will recieve even more assistance from bodyguards than Abaddon will from his terminator units.

Sorry I didn't get to Kharn's matches last night, I'll try and fit them in tonight though, and see if I can't do some Lucius testing.

Just Dave wrote:

Saintspirit wrote:A extremely tiny thing, but I though I'd point out that you have written Mark of the Alpha Legion instead of Icon of the Alpha Legion on page 4, at the rules of the Alpha Lord.
Also, you should edit so that Kharns attack rolls of 1 misses if there are no friendly units in the same combat as he is.

Good spot, I shall change that! Cheers Saint, even minor corrections like that are welcomed.

I'm unsure about changing the Kharn one as surely a roll of 1 is a miss anyway, but I'll change it anyways.

That is mainly to avoid conflicts about whether those attacks would hit himself or not, I guess.

Something else I noticed is that Noise Marines have Power Weaons for free.

Might be unnessecary, but couldn't you add the Slaaneshi Land Raider Dominator (where noise marines have a rock concert on top of a Land Raider)? Or is that one too silly..?

Honersstodnt wrote:Land Raider Dominator - 210 pts

AV - 14/13/12 , open topped

Weapons: TL heavy bolter, 2x sonic lances
sonic lance: single shot: str 8 ap1 lance 36" heavy 1
.............disbursed-shot: str 4 ap3 24" heavy 3 blast (small)

Special Rule: Domination - All friendly units within 12" get +1 initiative (stacks with other bonuses) as they rock out to the sound pounding out of this machine. All enemy units within 12" at the start of their turn must pass a toughness test, or suffer d6 wounds (armor saves apply) as their organs are pulped by the overwhelming bass.

Special Rule: Laser Lights - The noise marines piloting this vehicle show their devotion to the god of excess by putting on a badass death metal concert from the top of the land raider (hence the lower armor), complete with laser lights. Anyone assaulting the vehicle always requires a minimum of 5+ to hit the vehicle, as the lasers blind attackers.

Saintspirit wrote:Might be unnessecary, but couldn't you add the Slaaneshi Land Raider Dominator (where noise marines have a rock concert on top of a Land Raider)? Or is that one too silly..?

Honersstodnt wrote:Land Raider Dominator - 210 pts

AV - 14/13/12 , open topped

Weapons: TL heavy bolter, 2x sonic lances
sonic lance: single shot: str 8 ap1 lance 36" heavy 1
.............disbursed-shot: str 4 ap3 24" heavy 3 blast (small)

Special Rule: Domination - All friendly units within 12" get +1 initiative (stacks with other bonuses) as they rock out to the sound pounding out of this machine. All enemy units within 12" at the start of their turn must pass a toughness test, or suffer d6 wounds (armor saves apply) as their organs are pulped by the overwhelming bass.

Special Rule: Laser Lights - The noise marines piloting this vehicle show their devotion to the god of excess by putting on a badass death metal concert from the top of the land raider (hence the lower armor), complete with laser lights. Anyone assaulting the vehicle always requires a minimum of 5+ to hit the vehicle, as the lasers blind attackers.

That made me smile.

likewise


Automatically Appended Next Post:
likewise

Love it, someone make the model!!

@ Saint: Yeah, I know what you mean, I remember the GW FaQ had to address the issue of Kharn's attacks, so I guess I'll clarify it. Cheers!

Whilst cool, I don't intend to add that Land Raider!

As ever, all feedback is welcome!

Shiny...
I like this codex...

Took a look at this codex, I think its great. Anyone think this khorne rhino rush list is viable? Dont know what to do for the last 50

165-Chaos Lord: Icon of the World Eaters, Chief Slaughterer, Mark of Khorne, Power Maul, Melta Bombs
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons

1949

think that opentopping the rhino's would make it exponentially better, Instant assault vehicles

kenshin620 wrote:Took a look at this codex, I think its great. Anyone think this khorne rhino rush list is viable? Dont know what to do for the last 50

165-Chaos Lord: Icon of the World Eaters, Chief Slaughterer, Mark of Khorne, Power Maul, Melta Bombs
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
200-Chosen (5): 5 Meltaguns, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
256-Khorne Beserkers (8): Skull Champion with Power Fist and Combi Weapon, Rhino with Daemonic Possession
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons
120-Chaos Predator: Warpcannon Sponsons

1949

Thanks man, glad you like it. Did you find it easy to use in regards to the Warbands rule specifically?
I think the list looks pretty solid; I think I'd echo the idea of making the rhino's open-topped. You may also consider MoK on the Chosen for fluff purposes?

Cheers Kenshin!



I too have made an army list for what I would have as my Emperors Children army. The beauty of it for me is that every unit is multi-purpose and can perform several different roles.

HQ - Lucius the Eternal - 190pts

Elites - 6 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Hit & Run) - Mark of Slaanesh, 3 Meltaguns, 2 Flamers - Chaos Rhino - 217pts

Elites - 6 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (Hit & Run) - Mark of Slaanesh, 3 Meltaguns, 2 Flamers - Chaos Rhino - 217pts

Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Slaanesh, 2 Meltaguns - Chaos Rhino - 215pts

Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - Mark of Slaanesh, 2 Meltaguns - Chaos Rhino - 215pts

Troops - 6 Noise Marines - Champion w/ Gift of the Gods & Meltabombs Blast Master - Chaos Rhino - 192pts

Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Warp Cannon Sponsons - 120pts

Heavy Support - Chaos Predator - Warp Cannon Sponsons - 120pts

Total - 1496pts

Ironically, all the equivalent list in the current Chaos Space Marine Codex is cheaper IIRC.

There's some changes and update to the PDF coming later, anyone with good detective skills and a calculate may be able to figure on of the changes out from the list I just posted...

1k list with Rubrics

Sorcerer w/Master sorcerer

9 Rubric Marines
Rhino

9 Rubric Marines
Rhino

18 heretics
Aspiring champion
2xMelta

18 heretics
Aspiring champion
2xMelta

Predator AC/Sponson LCs

994 p

Oh wow I just noticed rhinos can be open topped, that'll make the zerkers even scarier!

Until of course a buttload of autocannons take aim

Latest (hopefully final) Version of the PDF is up.


Few changes, the main ones being:
- Abaddon 285pts and his weapon no longer wounds him on a rebellion.
- Vehicles cannot be open-topped and daemonically possessed.
- Khorne Bezerkers have a new rule (Blood Rage), which is intended to help balance them a bit due to the boost of chain axes.

As ever, please provide feedback and comment. Cheers.

kenshin620 wrote:Oh wow I just noticed rhinos can be open topped, that'll make the zerkers even scarier!

Until of course a buttload of autocannons take aim

You don't get anything for free in this world.

You know, you could just have said that you were not changing the possessed wording rather than treating me like some annoying idiot.

I honestly thought I had changed it. I'm gonna look over it now to see if it's worth changing/solving, but I honestly thought I had changed it. I can't keep track of everything.
I'm glad you're fully capable of jumping to conclusions however.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right, I've changed the Rending rule for the possessed slightly as you suggested. I don't really think there's a need to go further with it IMHO as the intention behind the rule is obvious!

Just grabbed this yesterday for a lookover and ... I'm torn. On the one hand, you've put a ton of work into this and it shows, but on the other, there are some issues that I feel are ... large.

Tomorrow, I'll sit down with a printout and illustrate where I feel you need some tweaks but, ultimately, its your project, so feel free to tell me to jump into a lake.

The biggest issue, however, is one that, I feel, knocks the whole thing off the tracks... Big Four cultmarines as troops. Khorne Berserkers, Nurgle Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and good ol' Emperr's Children (Not all of whom are noise marines, and good on you for remembering that!) should be elites, rather than troops, UNLESS you're playing one of those four cults. This could be dealt with with the Special Character Fix (I know, I know, the Icon system moves away from that, which I understand many players dislike, but, it's the mechanic that they're using, so, it should be replicated, even with a pinched nose.) This keeps the focus on Chaos Marines, and allows a dribble of the cool stuff, or, if you FOCUS on the cool stuff, you get a reward of having your troops be Right 'Ard. Troop selections in fifth are your scoring units, the absolute key to victory, while the other units are contesting ... and the cult forces are better reflected, by most armies, as 'special forces' akin to assault marines or Immortals or Howling Banshees, rather than plunked down like tac marines, basic ork boyz, or imperial guardsmen. They just can't get placed into the usual Troops selection, which should be just Chaos Marines and Heretics.

That's the one, big, glaring problem.

Most of the others are niggling details, like the Daemon Prince's wings being underpriced (Should be 60, akin to the Hive Tyrant he resembles) or psychic powers being a choose one/use two instead of choose two/use one like other forces. But those minor quibbles are better detailed in a longer post tomorrow.

But the Troops issue has gotta be fixed.

Of course, you're welcome to provide any feedback, positive or negative. I've keep saying all constructive feedback is welcome and I mean it; I'll listen and consider what you have to say; I can't say I'll agree with it as the Codex is in it's final stages and you have some 'large issues' with it, but as I said, I'll listen to your opinion. Thanks for the honesty man, particularly as it's said in such an in-depth and clear way too.

I have to say, although I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying, I disagree regarding the troops thing. I'll explain my reasoning as you have yours of course.
The Cult Units as troops isn't something new for Chaos Space Marines, obviously it's been in their previous Codex and considering 4/9 Legions are based on the 4 gods, I don't think it would be unreasonable to suggest around 25% of Chaos forces may have these at their heart of the force; similarly, they are also used as the heart of the forces in many players armies. Unless you're based around one of the 'big 4' Legions/gods however, the Cult Unit rules means that they stay rare and not the heart and soul.

I (and many others) find the special characters method very clunky and to me, the force-multiplying aspect contrasts to the egotistical/selfish manner of Chaos leaders (notice how few confer bonuses to other units) whilst also imposing quite specific restrictions. Similarly, the special character FoC unlocks typically only apply to unusual forces that don't actually fit the fluff; for example, armies composed almost entirely of Wolf Guard, Sanguinary Guard and Paladins are VERY rare and can only occur once for each faction in the fluff. Technically, an army composed of 30 Sanguinary Guard is impossible according to the fluff. Armies composed in this manner are rare in game and fluff, whereas armies composed largely of cult units aren't anywhere near as rare.
The other things I see wrong with your suggestion (IMHO) are A) Legion rules existed before, B) the Elites slot is pretty well accommodated as it is, C) Gamesworkshop isn't opposed to large army specific rules these days (it seems), such as Power through Pain, Grey Knights, Faith Points, Chapter Tactics, Phase Out etc.
The Cult troops are too expensive to be too common and numerous, whilst the standard CSM's are a powerful, cheaper and arguably more efficient and effective.; they also get a lot of bonuses themselves.


I do however agree regarding the Daemon Prince; I didn't know how much Tyrants wings costed, however 60pts and the Dreadknights teleporter does suggest the Daemon Prince should have pricier wings; at least it will encourage a variety of builds too.
I'll probably take the Prince down to 135pts, with wings costing an extra 50pts or so. Maybe 130/55 or something. Good idea man.

As I said; your opinion and feedback is fully welcomed, honestly. I'll consider all your opinions/feedback, as I said I can't guarantee I'll agree with them (as I'm sure you'll understand), but I really appreciate the feedback and the depth you're going into. Thanks Wakshaani.

Here's an example renegade army; focussing on Alpha-striking as I believe a Huron-led army would do:

- HQ - Huron Blackheart - 180pts

- Elites - 5 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (relentless) - Multimelta, 2 Meltaguns - Rhino - 175pts

- Elites - 5 Chosen Chaos Space Marines (relentless) - Multimelta, 2 Meltaguns - Rhino - 175pts

- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 plasma guns, Icon of Chaos Undivided - Rhino - 220pts

- Troops - 10 Chaos Space Marines - 2 meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Undivided - Rhino - 210pts

- Troops - 7 Plague Marines - 2 Flamers, Champion w/ Power Fist - Rhino - 231pts (with Huron)

- Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Plasma Cannons, Icon of Chaos Undivided - 155pts

- Heavy Support - 5 Havocs - 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Autocannons, Icon of Chaos Undivided - 145pts

1491pts

Hello, people call me Zub.
English is not my mother tongue, so I apologize for mistakes.
Sometimes I read forum on dakka but I have never needed to make an account here. Until now, when I saw your great codex. As chaos player I am really pissed off for what they have done to CHSM in 4th and it seems that your codex fixes majority of that. You have made a great work here and it would take too much time and space to write all the fings I like on it. I am just very excited to try and play with it.
I put it on our local WH40k forum and discussed it with my friends. Here are my ideas and arguments as well as arguments of other people on our forum.
I know that there is really many of it and I hope that you will not be offended.


Icon of the Iron Warriors
- 5pts is too cheap for lascannons, it would be much better to make all heavy weapons cheaper for them, for about -5pts each, cause they use them too, maybe make them cheaper even for havocs, to encourage their use
- IW could use an option to trade fast attack for 1 more heavy slot to be even able to use all that possible havocs and bassies
- BS6 for one heavy is odd and I don’t see much use for it
- it would be nice to alow IW characters to take servo arms like they used to be
- an ability to take siege dreadnoughts with FA13 (about +20pts?)
- miss ability to take another heavy weapon instead of special one

Icon of the Alpha Legion
- it would be better both fluffwise and gamewise if you remove taking infiltrating chosen as troops and instead offer all AL CHSM (with icon undivided) to take infiltration for 1-2 pts.(as additional veteran skill for chosen), because the way it is now, players would only take chosen and operatives and no normal marines, also AL is not known for a great number of chosen but for ability to infiltrate as the whole force
- also an ability to infiltrate or scout other units such as dreadnoughts would be great
- i don’t know if Alpha lord is worth 30pts, but maybe I just have to give it a try

Icon of the Renegade
- chaos master is really good and if rolled in high number it works like alpha legion icon

Icon of the Death Guard
- Death guardian would be much better if it works for all units in bauble of some less inches

Icon of the World Eaters
- Chief Slaughterer, now this is the first OP I have found, being it only counter atack it wold be ballanced but giving another attack to Khornate marines, who already have enough is way too much overkill

Icon of the Emperor’s Children
- Lord Commander - I really dont know if giving them both fleet and furious charge isn’t too much, maybe let the choose one at the start of the turn

Veteran Skills
- Furious charge is missing :(

Kharn The Betrayer
- people here think, that Eternal warrior is too good for him, personally I don’t know

Typhus
- manreaper - autohit at S5 and instant death, that’s way too much, you kill a bunch of marines and their captain in one swing, maybe s4 and instant death or s5 and autohit

I would consider to add some more characters maybe Zhufor the Impaler and Arkos the Faithless from FW Siege of Wraks

Chaos Lord
- I would let him to take more gifts than just one, in the old book (meaning 3rd ed.) he hat a point restriction, same with champion, which could take less points
- the problem here is that eternal warrior is too good to take anything else
- this will also add more variability and modelling possibilities to to characters

Daemon prince
- this guy is a big problem, it is useless without deamon weapon, because you made him so expansive and extremely killy with it
- in games a played and saw, DP functions mainly as a fire magnet and you made him 50 point more expansive
- with daemon weapon he is ridiculously good, 4(5) +d6 A on S8 with undivided weapon is bad
- I could see him as 130 pts naked with wings for 25 and possibility to take more chaos gifts

That brings us to another problem, which is Undivided DW, +2S is OP, old +1S was more balanced.

Chaos Sorcerer
- I liked more the previous system of choosing powers with different costs for each, because frankly, some are just better then others

Chaos Champion
- nobody would pay 65 pts for this

Chaos Terminators
- that odd think with 5 champs is bad, just let people to take how many champs they want and to kit them with any gifts they want

Chaos Dreadnought
- maybe let him take double aoutocans to make chaos rifle dread or allow it only to renegades
- nurgle dreads should not have FA13, that should be left to IW, you cold maybe give them some pestilence weaponry or permanent 5+ (fly) cover
- it would be nice if we could have some elite slot dread and a heavy slot dread like each other SM have, maybe something like venerabele (ancient) dread in elite and normal dread in heavy, or normal in elite and siege (IW?) in heavy

Mark of Chaos Undivided:
Gains BS5 & WS5
20pts.
- that’s expansive, especially compared to khorne reroll

Grenade Launcher
- this should be renamed to astartes Grenade Launcher to enable cultists and operatives to take normal (IG) Grenade Launcher

Heretics
- why don’t they have heavy weapons, it would make much more sense then HW in operatives
- don’t really think they should scout

Khorne Bezerkers
- plenty people will argue that they are too good with chain rending axes and that they should remain as they are

Rubric Marines
- 20 pts for sorcerer is too cheap (maybe 30 or make him buy his powers)
- 9 guys in a squad should not make sorcerer free but cheaper (because it is more expansive then it other cult squads)
- all is dust is odd, maybe give them 3+ reroll agains shooting and give them 4++ against hits (even CC) that negate their armor but are not twice their T too, it will reflect that smaller gunfire or small holes from power weapons cannot destroy the armor but a hit from a rocket or power fist smashes it apart

Operatives (Alpha Legion Only)
- really miss icon of glory here

Chaos Rhino
- Open-topped - this was the greatest problem that guys I have talked and me too had with this codex
- it is really TOOOOOOOO good to even think about it, why should anybody take non-Open-topped rhino? O-t vehicle are so much better, just imagine it, assaulty units (zerkers) will jump from it and charge (18 line) and they are way too better than orks jumping from their O-t wagons and every other unit that is shooty will buy it as a cheap moving bunker, not to mention chosen first turn charge (12+12+2+6= 32 charge)
-Frag Maw – 5pts – why on rhino?

Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Obliterators
- rules are confusing
- somebody wants his autocanons back, but i don’t see why

Defiler
- you want people to pay for vomit canon, which is worse than battle canon

Basilisk
- why 15 pts more than IG?
- why BS4, IW let always thralls to operate them?
- I miss ability to swap heavy bolter for heavy flamer like IG can

Greater Daemon
- +1 ws doesn’t justify +30 pts

Winds of Chaos
- kill on 3+ is way too good, I would stick to old 4+

Warp Rift
- there should be stated if it means completed 12” or uncompleted 12”
- can be OP if you play TS and give it to all your little sorcs in squads and dreads, you will have a whole army jumping around
- penetration on dread is too much imo, maybe glance?

Bolt of Change
- S10?!??! it should be on par with daemons, which have S8, there were many arguments here against it

Dirge caster
- also many arguments here, -2LD is too good (i know -1DL is too bad)

Gift of the Gods
- there should be stated where the 1 result chaos spawn will be placed
- it would be also fun if a deapstriking terminators turn into spawns, that the spawns also deep strike

Cheers and thanks a lot!

Fantastic Codex, is it alright if I use it in friendly games and print the whole thing off? I dunno if it would cross lines or whatever, but I tested it in my local and most of them agreed that it is a lot better than most of the codices GW have made and allowed me to use it in a few games later on.

Wow Zub that was a massive post,

loving the ideas here and its highlighted things for me that were niggling that i couldnt put my finger on, love it

Does anyone have any battle reports with this book?

Dave, you really should apply for a job at GW. Sell your soul to make life better for us CSM players!

iproxtaco wrote:Fantastic Codex, is it alright if I use it in friendly games and print the whole thing off? I dunno if it would cross lines or whatever, but I tested it in my local and most of them agreed that it is a lot better than most of the codices GW have made and allowed me to use it in a few games later on.

That's absolutely fine man; that's more than fine. That's great and the whole purpose of the thing. I'm likely to make a few changes soon (some possibly as a result of Zub's feedback) so somethings may change slightly, but seriously that's absolutely fine man. i really appreciate how you've been spreading the word within Dakka too and if you could report your experiences with it to me, that'd be wonderful. Thanks a lot man!

Zub wrote:Hello, people call me Zub.
English is not my mother tongue, so I apologize for mistakes.
Sometimes I read forum on dakka but I have never needed to make an account here. Until now, when I saw your great codex. As chaos player I am really pissed off for what they have done to CHSM in 4th and it seems that your codex fixes majority of that. You have made a great work here and it would take too much time and space to write all the fings I like on it. I am just very excited to try and play with it.
I put it on our local WH40k forum and discussed it with my friends. Here are my ideas and arguments as well as arguments of other people on our forum.
I know that there is really many of it and I hope that you will not be offended.

Hey Zub, cheers for the (in-depth feedback), I'm not offended; honestly. I appreciate you spreading this Codex around and showing it to your mates etc. that's really appreciated; if you could give them my response too that'd be great.
Just checking, other than what you've commented on here, I get the impression you're very happy with it otherwise?

I'll respond to what you're saying in similar depth to try and show my reasoning and efforts to balance the rules, to hopefully help you and your buddies see why I've made things like they are. As I said, I'm not offended or rejecting your advice, honestly, but I will respond with my reasoning/thoughts and make changes to the 'dex where I see fit. Thanks Zub!

Icon of the Iron Warriors
- 5pts is too cheap for lascannons, it would be much better to make all heavy weapons cheaper for them, for about -5pts each, cause they use them too, maybe make them cheaper even for havocs, to encourage their use
- IW could use an option to trade fast attack for 1 more heavy slot to be even able to use all that possible havocs and bassies
- BS6 for one heavy is odd and I don’t see much use for it
- it would be nice to alow IW characters to take servo arms like they used to be
- an ability to take siege dreadnoughts with FA13 (about +20pts?)
- miss ability to take another heavy weapon instead of special one

- The reasoning behind the Lascannon being 5pts, is that Heavy Weapons for CSM squads are rarely taken due to their price and inherent drawbacks; with a heavy weapon (as they are unable to combat-squad like loyalists), the rest of the unit works for the heavy weapon, basically making them a 150pts+ weapon platform; they cannot move and shoot, they cannot target other enemies (bolters are anti-infantry, lascannons anti-tank) and they struggle to move onto objectives; few CSM squads take heavy weapons and instead go for a 2nd plasma/melta/flamer, which is still an option here with the cheaper meltagun. Does that make it sound more reasonable to you?
- I never intended tbh to implement the extra HS slot; the Iron Warriors were arguably the most powerful force from their previous Codex which may or may not be a result of this, but IMHO the loss of FA slots isn't really a draw-back as the player wouldn't be taking them anyway. With the Lascannon, you lose mobility, versatility and more, but with the FoC switch, the IW player only loses something he wouldn't use anyway; therefore it's not really a loss IMHO.
- with a BS6, you could potentially have Basilisks, Defilers and Vindicators effectively not have their weapons scatter; their biggest problem. I.e. You're Str10/9 large blast could land dead-on target. Similarly, it would allow Obliterators and Havocs to hit on a 2+. IMHO it's actually one of the better Warband powers.
- I can understand that desire, but IMHO it wouldn't make a big-enough difference to warrant implementing it. I honestly understand, but it would be of limited use and effect in-game...
- Well, you can now get Dreadnoughts with a Siege Hammer (Iron Warriors-ish) and a Dreadnought (and Defiler) with MoN is FA13 for what it's worth?

Icon of the Alpha Legion
- it would be better both fluffwise and gamewise if you remove taking infiltrating chosen as troops and instead offer all AL CHSM (with icon undivided) to take infiltration for 1-2 pts.(as additional veteran skill for chosen), because the way it is now, players would only take chosen and operatives and no normal marines, also AL is not known for a great number of chosen but for ability to infiltrate as the whole force
- also an ability to infiltrate or scout other units such as dreadnoughts would be great
- i don’t know if Alpha lord is worth 30pts, but maybe I just have to give it a try

- That's a nice idea and something I did originally consider. It may make Chosen far too powerful however, being able to take infiltrate and an additional veteran skill (e.g. Tank hunters) would likely be over-powered, but it would encourage the use of CSM's. I decided to leave it as just the Chosen however, as whilst the AL isn't known for their large number of chosen they are low in numbers and this is a simple mechanic to enable the infiltration abilities symbolic of the AL. Originally, the chosen wouldn't enable Auxiliaries, so CSM's would be needed to get operatives, but this has since changed and I can see what you mean about people rarely taking CSM's. Then again, maybe people would use CSM's more now due to their comparative price and the Alpha Lord's ability to help them with an almost-infiltration.
- Speaking of which... The Alpha Lords ability should basically work like Eldrads and add another level of deception to it. If you had a shooty army or were against a CC, you could deploy a unit as far forwards as possible (in spearhead), thereby forcing your opponent back, before shifting your forces as far back as possible, enabling you to get the most turns away from CC possible. It can also cause opponents to deploy with the intentions against a specific target/unit, before the Alpha Lord enables the target/unit move elsewhere; thereby messing your opponents deployment. It can put units from deployment into reserve and last but not least can improve LoS. Say you put Havocs in a corner of the board and your enemy deployed to hide from their LoS; with the Alpha Lord ability you can then re-deploy your Havocs and now have your opponents carefully placed units in clear LoS - e.g. Side armour on battlewagons/rhino's etc.

Icon of the Renegade
- chaos master is really good and if rolled in high number it works like alpha legion icon

Is that 'good' or 'too good'? I tried to balance it somewhat with Scout not being amazing and it's restrictions, particularly in regards to vehicles.

Icon of the Death Guard
- Death guardian would be much better if it works for all units in bauble of some less inches

That's a good idea; I may make it all units within 6" get a 5+ cover save and cover/assault benefits?

Icon of the World Eaters
- Chief Slaughterer, now this is the first OP I have found, being it only counter atack it wold be ballanced but giving another attack to Khornate marines, who already have enough is way too much overkill

I had recently removed the count-attack part of this rule to try and limit it being OP. However, I admit to this being a rule I was worried about, but I was hoping it's limited area of effect would be OK, whilst attack bubbles are nothing new (Sanguinor, Logan, Pedro etc.)? It's also very khornate and rare IMHO.

Icon of the Emperor’s Children
- Lord Commander - I really dont know if giving them both fleet and furious charge isn’t too much, maybe let the choose one at the start of the turn

The idea was to represent Combat-drugs, whilst Fleet and Furious charge aren't particularly powerful and suffer from the same ideas as the Chief Slaughterer IMHO,

Veteran Skills
- Furious charge is missing :(

I did consider adding Furious Charge, but ultimately I decided against it, as unlike hunting tanks, or improved WS, a furious charge isn't really a skill IMHO, but just a state of mind? It also cuts down on options (therefore creating simplicity) and preferred enemy is better IMHO?

Kharn The Betrayer
- people here think, that Eternal warrior is too good for him, personally I don’t know

My reasoning here is that Kharn has been around since before the HH, has died at least once, been severely crippled multiple times, yet goes around the galaxy kicking ass and taking names, rather than getting knocked out by one hit from a powerfist or something. I did increase his points too?

Typhus
- manreaper - autohit at S5 and instant death, that’s way too much, you kill a bunch of marines and their captain in one swing, maybe s4 and instant death or s5 and autohit

I would consider to add some more characters maybe Zhufor the Impaler and Arkos the Faithless from FW Siege of Wraks

Yeah, I can understand that. He was until the last update Str4 as normal, but I feared he wasn't that strong. He can obviously take a beating, but I wasn't sure he could dish one out, hence my making him Str5, to represent the size of the manreaper. He is 225pts after all, so he needs to be good. I may drop it back to Str4, but after that brief explanation of my reasoning, would you still think it's too much?

Chaos Lord
- I would let him to take more gifts than just one, in the old book (meaning 3rd ed.) he hat a point restriction, same with champion, which could take less points
- the problem here is that eternal warrior is too good to take anything else
- this will also add more variability and modelling possibilities to to characters

My thinking behind only one gift, was to enable customisation and character, but to not let it go overboard. When you used to see a character with Daemonic Strength, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Visage etc. etc. I thought that was too much. With one gift, you've still got the customisation options and can add character, but it's also a simple mechanic and a return of gifts of chaos.
Regarding EW, it's the most expensive of all the upgrades and actually has a limited effect; SW's have a similar piece of equipment and this too rarely gets taken. Personally, I'd very rarely opt for eternal warrior.

Daemon prince
- this guy is a big problem, it is useless without deamon weapon, because you made him so expansive and extremely killy with it
- in games a played and saw, DP functions mainly as a fire magnet and you made him 50 point more expansive
- with daemon weapon he is ridiculously good, 4(5) +d6 A on S8 with undivided weapon is bad
- I could see him as 130 pts naked with wings for 25 and possibility to take more chaos gifts

Ironically, just before you had posted, I had changed him to 130pts base (note: this isn't the version in the OP - YET) but had increased the cost of his wings.
I've heard of people using them as fire magnets, but they are also incredibly powerful, with or without a Daemon Weapon; with 4 Str6, armour ignoring, monstrous creature attacks and 4 wounds with a 3+/4++ and a high WS; a Daemon Prince is very powerful as it is.
Within the current codex a Daemon Prince is basically an auto-included, due to his points and his abilities. Within my Codex I've improved his invulnerable save but made him more significantly different to a Lord, so that players have to choose which to take rather than automatically taking a prince. IMHO a Daemon Prince has gone from an auto-include to an investment. Think of them as you would a Hive Tyrant...

Someone commented on prices with Daemon Weapons before, however I'm still not sure what is so bad about them. They cost 15pts more than the Chaos Lords, but don't provide the PW bonus, meaning they're effectively 30pts more at 55pts. 55pts on your 130pts model already makes it go up to 185pts. This Daemon Weapon, whilst providing some hefty benefits is expensive and capable of hurting your character. You can spend extra points to make him tougher (gifts), but a Daemon Weapon bypasses all of this and can inflict an insta-wound, no matter what. A wound is a big blow on such a big character IMHO - look at Abaddon for an example. Similarly, things like Wraithlords, Dreadknights and Carnifex's are all Str10 or there abouts but they aren't seen as over-powered.
Finally, a Relic Blade costs what? 30pts and adds +2 Strength? For 15pts you get extra attacks, but also a big risk of hurting yourself. Repeatedly. IMHO in that light it's quite balanced. Whereas the +1 str Frostblade is rarely taken.
Thoughts?

Chaos Sorcerer
- I liked more the previous system of choosing powers with different costs for each, because frankly, some are just better then others

I can understand this, however this seems to be a trend GW is moving away from. Similarly, it can really rack up the cost of your characters/models and I've tried to change the powers to be of similar effect.

Chaos Champion
- nobody would pay 65 pts for this

Why?
Originally I had Alpha Lords/Warsmiths/whomever as individual characters, but I chose to make it a special rule and allow the Chaos Champion, allowing you to pay minimum points for these rules.

Chaos Terminators
- that odd think with 5 champs is bad, just let people to take how many champs they want and to kit them with any gifts they want

The idea here is for them to represent the truly-elite Chaos Space Marines; those who can really dish out the pain. With more than 5-men however, they are no longer the truly elite (doubled numbers) and are much more likely to become over-powered IMHO. 5-men is an important balancing factor IMHO.

Chaos Dreadnought
- maybe let him take double aoutocans to make chaos rifle dread or allow it only to renegades
- nurgle dreads should not have FA13, that should be left to IW, you cold maybe give them some pestilence weaponry or permanent 5+ (fly) cover
- it would be nice if we could have some elite slot dread and a heavy slot dread like each other SM have, maybe something like venerabele (ancient) dread in elite and normal dread in heavy, or normal in elite and siege (IW?) in heavy

I had been considering allowing dual autocannons, but I fear if this could be too good alongside Fire Frenzy?
I don't see why Nurgle Dreads should not be FA13 and why IW should. Nurgle's notoriously tough and their Dreadnoughts are too; hence the AV13. Iron Warriors aren't known for fielding more dreads than other Legions and have Basilisks, Defilers and Vindicators and a Siege Hammer; why can't Nurgle Dreads be AV13?
I like the idea of an elite and heavy Dreadnought, I shall have to think about that and see what I can conjure...

Grenade Launcher
- this should be renamed to astartes Grenade Launcher to enable cultists and operatives to take normal (IG) Grenade Launcher

Grenade Launchers seem to be rarely taken in IG armies as it is, I don't think operatives & heretics will miss them too much IMHO.

Heretics
- why don’t they have heavy weapons, it would make much more sense then HW in operatives
- don’t really think they should scout

I find Heretics aren't valued by the Chaos Legions and wouldn't really be trusted with HW's. The Iron Warriors for example have used them as human shields, running in front of the enemy, whilst other Chaos Legions use them as simple tools, whilst the AL values their operatives. Having 20-men run forward with 2 flamers sounds much more appropriate than 20-men sitting back with a lascannon in my mind.
With Scouts, it gives them some mobility and fits their roles within CSM armies; as scouts, meatshields, distractions or whatever.

Khorne Bezerkers
- plenty people will argue that they are too good with chain rending axes and that they should remain as they are

Yeah, I've questioned this myself. I've changed it to re-roll any to-wound roll of one in close-combat.

Rubric Marines
- 20 pts for sorcerer is too cheap (maybe 30 or make him buy his powers)
- 9 guys in a squad should not make sorcerer free but cheaper (because it is more expansive then it other cult squads)
- all is dust is odd, maybe give them 3+ reroll agains shooting and give them 4++ against hits (even CC) that negate their armor but are not twice their T too, it will reflect that smaller gunfire or small holes from power weapons cannot destroy the armor but a hit from a rocket or power fist smashes it apart

My reasoning is that the 20pts makes him effectively the same price as the existing aspiring sorcerers in the unit (43pts), whilst having paid for several Rubric Marines isn't cheap. Your basic squad of nine Rubric Marines and a Sorcerer in a rhino is over 240pts and has problems of its own; lack of anti-armour, weakness in assault etc.

Operatives (Alpha Legion Only)
- really miss icon of glory here

True, but you can get a Ld10 Champion and the Alpha Legion don't really seem to worship Chaos...

Chaos Rhino
- Open-topped - this was the greatest problem that guys I have talked and me too had with this codex
- it is really TOOOOOOOO good to even think about it, why should anybody take non-Open-topped rhino? O-t vehicle are so much better, just imagine it, assaulty units (zerkers) will jump from it and charge (18 line) and they are way too better than orks jumping from their O-t wagons and every other unit that is shooty will buy it as a cheap moving bunker, not to mention chosen first turn charge (12+12+2+6= 32 charge)

Yes, open-topped has always been on a balancing edge between good and OP. I'm going to change it to 15pts, but I may reluctantly take it up to 20pts. Remember that it makes your already fragile rhino weaker and more expensive, whilst only really benefiting assault units. AV11, open-topped and not-fast isn't particularly impressive or hard to take out. Obviously it's good with say Zerkers in it, but when it gets shot, things get dicey IMHO, particularly as this rhino will now cost 50pts!

Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Oh yeah, that's a typo; cheers! Under that typo you'd actually be buying 5 CSM's for 3pts more than usual that cannot score!

Obliterators
- rules are confusing
- somebody wants his autocanons back, but i don’t see why

I'm unsure why the rules are confusing. You simply choose 2 weapons each turn and go from there?

Defiler
- you want people to pay for vomit canon, which is worse than battle canon

The idea is that people would be paying for FA13 and the improved anti-infantry ability (although obviously weaker against tanks). If you have plenty of anti-tank elsewhere in particular, then I'd say 15pts for +1 armour and improved anti-infantry. The Vomit Cannon can still take out vehicles too however.

Basilisk
- why 15 pts more than IG?
- why BS4, IW let always thralls to operate them?
- I miss ability to swap heavy bolter for heavy flamer like IG can

The 15pts increase was due to the specialisation and improved ballistic skill. In retrospect, I'll take it down to 10pts more and add the option for a heavy flamer.

Greater Daemon
- +1 ws doesn’t justify +30 pts

Noted. I've taken him down to 120pts; but he's still a beast in close combat and benefits from the improved mobility and cheaper (or even free!) champions.

Winds of Chaos
- kill on 3+ is way too good, I would stick to old 4+

Well, it's currently 4+ but is rarely taken...

Warp Rift
- there should be stated if it means completed 12” or uncompleted 12”
- can be OP if you play TS and give it to all your little sorcs in squads and dreads, you will have a whole army jumping around
- penetration on dread is too much imo, maybe glance?

The penetration on dreads is to balance the significantly improved mobility. Warp Rift comes with its own problems too; you have all the risks of deep-strike (mishap etc.), assault restrictions, nullification, cost and the ability to kill yourself. Similarly, a TS squad with this would then be unable to take out vehicles etc. I'm going to design an army around this concept to see if it really is worth worrying about.
The rules mean complete 12" btw.

Bolt of Change
- S10?!??! it should be on par with daemons, which have S8, there were many arguments here against it

That's fair enough, but remember that the Nids have a Str10 lance, SW's have LL and JotWW and Blood Angels have Blood Lance and GK have Might of Titan; psychic powers seem to be getting more powerful, whilst a single str8 shot isn't very impressive. I've lowered it's range, but have effectively increased it's cost (all powers would cost around the 25pts mark), whilst bringing it more in-line with 5th edition powers...

Dirge caster
- also many arguments here, -2LD is too good (i know -1DL is too bad)

The problem is that upgrades like Dirge Caster very rarely get taken as it is. How about -1 Ld for 5pts?

Gift of the Gods
- there should be stated where the 1 result chaos spawn will be placed
- it would be also fun if a deapstriking terminators turn into spawns, that the spawns also deep strike

The rules describe them as becoming a separate unit, before deployment meaning that they are deployed separately as a separate unit!

Thanks for the feedback. As I've said, I'm not rejecting your advice and I've already taken a lot of it on-board, but I would too like you to see my reasoning. Cheers.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Does anyone have any battle reports with this book?

I THINK (emphasis as I'm not sure), but some people have reported their experiences briefly and that I know of IIRC the W/L record for my fandex itself is 3 Wins/1 Draw/2 Losses. I recall a guy who had a Bezerker army beaten by Orks (a massive close-combat battle then!) and Orks beaten by Death Guard....




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Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Dave, you really should apply for a job at GW. Sell your soul to make life better for us CSM players!

I'm not selling my soul for Chaos; maybe Space Wolves however!

Tbh I do intend to send it to GW soon, for what little good it'd do.

Some comments of my own:

Check out the points cost on chaos bikers. 78 for 5? I'd buy that! I think you meant to say 3 bikers cost that amount.

Doombolt still pales in comparison to the destructive power of a primaris psyker.

Special characters seem to cost a lot for what they have.

The army still suffers from troops handicapping characters - Abaddon, for example, still runs away if attached to his


Chaos theory - wow. Why choose doombolt again? At least give Doombolt a longer range, so players have the choice of "at short range, chaos theory. At longer range, Doombolt".

Your krak grenades differ from the IG krak grenades, at least the ones fired from a grenade launcher. Might want to make it a different weapon, or use the standard profile.

Does a rebelling daemon weapon still ignore armour saves?

Daemon weapon - mark of tzeentch. I hate this rule, rending on a 4+ INSTEAD of being a power weapon. That means vs marines it's a power weapon, essentially, but against a guardsman a roll to-wound of 2 or 3 will allow an armor save. What? Just make it a power weapon that also rends on a 4+, don't replace its armour-ignoring when it rolls a 3.


Absolutely love the scourge claw rules. Very nice and characterful, and makes them DEADLY vs hordes. Have you considered reinstating the "doubles its attacks" on a blood raging dreadnought like in the 3.5 codex?

Something I want to see in the next chaos codex: Either make terminator armour WAY cheaper [because the characters all come with a 5+ invulnerable save stock] or have terminator armour add +1 to the invulnerable save. That makes lords/sorcerers a 5+, terminators lords/sorcerers a 4+, and Abaddon/Tzeentch terminator characters a 3+ invulnerable. Make the options be actual CHOICES, because they grant better benefits. Especially in the case of chaos - do you want to buy chaos armor for 2+ armor, and ride in a rhino, or get the 2+ armor and boost your invul, but prevent sweeping advance and limit your wargear and transport options?

Daemonic mounts - the question with daemonic mounts has always been "now, where do I GO?" Characters with these mounts have a real tough time joining units. They either get slowed down or slow down the unit. They can't ride in transports and there's no other good unit to ride with, meaning that a character on a mount really needs to be able to stand on their own. A bonus to toughness or something probably needs to be considered.

Lesser Daemons - these still take a force organization chart? I can live with that I guess. And if I'm part of a legion, my daemons aligned with my legion cost only 11 points but get all those benefits?

.....S4 T4 rending daemonettes for 11 points apiece? Alrighty! Bit odd specifying they don't gain rending vs vehicles, but ah well. It seems like the Tzeentch daemons get a raw deal for 16 points, though. Maybe make their invul 4+ as well, or increase the gun to assault 3.


Gift of the Gods - Woah, woah, WOAH! I can pay points for terminators, pay points for champions, pay points for gift, and become spawn?

Actually I just read the statline for spawn - alright, not that bad. And it would be a unit of 10 of them? 10d6 S6 attacks eh? I can live with that.


Something I've always wanted to see in a chaos codex, and yet never see it: Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.

Read the fluff. Chaos Marines are itching to fight marines all the time. They'll perform raids and stuff just to get marines out there so they can fight them. They consider guard easy and boring, and they always talk about how well they know their tactics, fighting style, and even ways to get around their armour by hitting them in the weak spots. All CSM should have preferred enemy: Space Marines, and if not all, at LEAST all the elite and HQ units.


Chaos Spawn should be 40 points. Compare them to ogryns. You'll be higher initiative, faster, higher strength but not as good an armor save and no gun. Compared to grotesques, you're faster but don't have fnp. 40 sounds better for those guys. They have a daemon prince statline, except for skills and speed.

Same problem with dreadknights: You say wings make you jump infantry. Clarify for daemon princes.

Greater daemons: Still have the high initiative problem with terrain slowing us down, even the Slaanesh's initiative 8 is a bit of a waste then. No Eternal Warrior, still? Or will the Daemon rule be applied to this codex?

Blastmaster: There is so little variation between single and varied frequency, why should I bother standing still? I'll wound T4 on a 2+ either way, and neither penetrates MEQ armor. S7 isn't very good at killing vehicles. Single frequency has always been a high-powered shot and traditionally a blast. I don't mind the blastmaster's current S8 AP3 48" blast for single frequency, nor do I mind the 2-shot S5. It's just the cost. Either use the statline for the current one and reduce the points to like 10, or keep your 20 point cost and boost up the single-frequency. Relying on noisemarines for anti-tank is pretty much a mistake, so if you wanted to make it something like S7 large blast Ap4, that'd be fine too.


Why are obliterators costing more, but get worse in every way? No eternal warrior [not that they should have it, unless you leave them T4], still S4 T4, and have to pick 2 weapons, so they're worthless in assault if you want an assault weapon and a long-ranged weapon?

I never thought I'd say I want the current oblits back but if that's what it'd change to, ugh. Absolutely not. Bring them back to 70 points and reinstate S5 and T4(5). That's about proper for those guys.


Chaos vindicator still pays same price as marine vindicator and doesn't come with the second gun? k.


What the hell reason do you have for the daemon prince price jump, by the way? Building a lash prince as I have it now is 155 points. Under your codex, the exact same model with the exact same abilities, with +1 invul save, costs 215! And it's not really any harder to kill! How in the world can you justify that?



I dunno, some things I like but on the whole, things seem way overpowered or WAY WAY overcosted. And the marks seem more about restricting what you can take, rather than granting access to mark-only things. What if I want a Slaanesh-marked defiler with I4, but I don't want blastmasters? Why does it have fewer attacks? Why does that upgrade cost so many points? I've replaced the autocannon with a blastmaster [about the same, no twin-linked but 2x shots], and the heavy flamer with a blastmaster [same thing, longer range and strength but potentially fewer models hit and no re-rolling, plus allows cover saves], and lost an attack, but gained an initiative - and can I still trade my weapons for close combat weapons? Assuming I can't, I've traded an attack AND the ability to get MORE attacks for two guns and a point of initiative. If I AM able to trade the blastmasters back in for ccw, why have I paid 35 points?

You need to rethink some of those options. Rather than saying "you get the mark of slaanesh, and this and this, and you lose this and this, period, if you pay x points" say "you may buy the mark of slaanesh, which gives you this bonus. Then you can buy these upgrades". Now, when I'm paying points, I'm getting a BENEFIT [+1 initiative], and I've now unlocked the OPTION to buy myself blastmasters if I like the idea of a dakka defiler running around [though I still can't fire the battle cannon and another gun, which kinda blows. Might fix that, or allow the battle cannon to be replaced], or maybe even allow the heavy flamer to be a twin-linked doomsiren, or make a vehicle-class doomsiren that's S6.

And why do the warbands have such arbitrary restrictions? No bikers for Tzeentch? No Vindicators for Slaanesh? Where's the fluff behind those, or did each legion just HAVE to have something they can't bring?




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You buy the mark for a unit for a MODEL in the unit. Does this mean the mark goes away if that model dies? You clarified that if you combat squad both combat squads get the benefit of a purchased mark - so how does that work?

Maybe change it to the UNIT buys the mark. At which point I'd like to suggest maybe taking it back to the old school days and paying x points for the marks for each model, that way a 5-man squad and a 15-man squad pay appropriately for it, rather than 5-man squads being HOSED and 15-man getting off real cheap.


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Sacred numbers: Don't force small squads on people. Make the max unit size 20 models, and give the free champion to any multiple of the sacred number.

Think of army composition. If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? Blastmasters are mediocre but kind of an unreliable waste. If I go berserkers, they can at least take plasma pistols and honestly their hth attacks are good enough. Plaguemarines take normal meltaguns. Thousand Sons are stuck with the sorcerer trying to pop tanks. Perhaps provide options for the cult units to all be able to take care of armour? Why can't a noisemarine take a meltagun? Why can't a standard noisemarine carry a doomsiren? Only one blastmaster per squad? Look at grey knights for example - paying a lot of points per trooper, they don't depend on taking anti-tank meltaguns in their squads, they have the option to take 2 psycannons to handle anti-tank and anti-horde. Allow noisemarines to take multiple blastmasters and give thousand sons either the option to take a meltagun [seriously, why can't they?] or have an alternate profile for their bolters - instead of rapid-firing the bolter shells, give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range and two units can work together, one popping a transport and the other gunning down those inside, rather than being absolutely FORCED to depend on long-range fire from elsewhere in the army or being FORCED to take regular CSMs for the sole purpose of having some meltaguns.