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Spellbound wrote:Some comments of my own:

Check out the points cost on chaos bikers. 78 for 5? I'd buy that! I think you meant to say 3 bikers cost that amount.

This was answered in the previous post:

Just Dave wrote:

zub wrote:Chaos Bikers
- there should be stated 3 chaos bikers for 78, not 5

Oh yeah, that's a typo; cheers! Under that typo you'd actually be buying 5 CSM's for 3pts more than usual that cannot score!

Doombolt still pales in comparison to the destructive power of a primaris psyker.

Powers such as Doombolt are typically moderately weak, but provide reliable hitting-power. It's still likely to take out 2 Terminators a turn. What's the power of a primaris psyker?

Special characters seem to cost a lot for what they have.

The difficulty is that people are likely (and have) to say otherwise; generally I've improved them but kept them at a similar price. With characters such as this, I also need to try and ensure that they're not a reason to not take a normal HQ. Please give me some specific examples however.

The army still suffers from troops handicapping characters - Abaddon, for example, still runs away if attached to his

True to an extent I'd argue, however Abaddon's typical bodyguard (Terminators) are stubborn, whilst cut units are fearless, IoCU can re-roll leadership tests while this is a problem for all characters like this.

Chaos theory - wow. Why choose doombolt again? At least give Doombolt a longer range, so players have the choice of "at short range, chaos theory. At longer range, Doombolt".

Because Doombolt is reliable? With Chaos Theory you may just get a 5" range, Str4, AP6 and 1 small blast?

Your krak grenades differ from the IG krak grenades, at least the ones fired from a grenade launcher. Might want to make it a different weapon, or use the standard profile.

The grenade launcher as a whole is different; it's created by CSM's and the Dark Mechanicum due to the simplicity, reliability and versatility of the weapon. Plasma/Flamer/Melta weapons require specific and expensive and extensive facilities and production process; grenades can be man-made and easily produced; a necessity for the Chaos Legions.

Does a rebelling daemon weapon still ignore armour saves?

Daemon weapon - mark of tzeentch. I hate this rule, rending on a 4+ INSTEAD of being a power weapon. That means vs marines it's a power weapon, essentially, but against a guardsman a roll to-wound of 2 or 3 will allow an armor save. What? Just make it a power weapon that also rends on a 4+, don't replace its armour-ignoring when it rolls a 3.

It says "All Daemon Weapons are two-handed Power Weapons that add an additional D6 attacks (roll at the beginning of each close combat phase) in combat. On a roll of 1 the Daemon inside the weapon rebels and the bearer suffers a single wound with no saves of any kind allowed.
Furthermore if it rebels the user gains no additional attacks and all bonuses for wielding the Daemon Weapon are lost for the duration of that turn.
Daemon Weapons also confer an additional ability depending on the mark of the character who wields it, as described below:"

Which means they ignore all saves if the weapon rebels and the Tzeentch's rending is ON TOP of the normal abilities.

Absolutely love the scourge claw rules. Very nice and characterful, and makes them DEADLY vs hordes. Have you considered reinstating the "doubles its attacks" on a blood raging dreadnought like in the 3.5 codex?

Thank you; not confusing are they?
And no, I thought that the current worked well enough and aren't game-breaking as it were.

Something I want to see in the next chaos codex: Either make terminator armour WAY cheaper [because the characters all come with a 5+ invulnerable save stock] or have terminator armour add +1 to the invulnerable save. That makes lords/sorcerers a 5+, terminators lords/sorcerers a 4+, and Abaddon/Tzeentch terminator characters a 3+ invulnerable. Make the options be actual CHOICES, because they grant better benefits. Especially in the case of chaos - do you want to buy chaos armor for 2+ armor, and ride in a rhino, or get the 2+ armor and boost your invul, but prevent sweeping advance and limit your wargear and transport options?

The Chaos Terminator Armour is intended to be priced to take this into consideration: it's 10pts cheaper than that of the Space Wolves for example. Think of it like this: Chaos/Runic/Artificer Armour is 20pts -- Power Weapons are 15pts -- Twin-linked Boltguns are around 3pts. That would make the Terminator Armour worth approximately 38pts, but is charged only 30pts, due to its restrictions. You could pay for the Chaos Armour or you could get Terminator armour which looks good, allows deep-strike, provides a power weapon and storm bolter and can allow you to still get Chaos Gifts.

Daemonic mounts - the question with daemonic mounts has always been "now, where do I GO?" Characters with these mounts have a real tough time joining units. They either get slowed down or slow down the unit. They can't ride in transports and there's no other good unit to ride with, meaning that a character on a mount really needs to be able to stand on their own. A bonus to toughness or something probably needs to be considered.

There are currently only 2 beast mounts that prevents them from joining other units; undivided and slaanesh; Undivided provides the toughness bonus whilst Slaanesh provides additional attacks, initiative and WS. I was hoping this would be pretty sufficient.

Lesser Daemons - these still take a force organization chart? I can live with that I guess. And if I'm part of a legion, my daemons aligned with my legion cost only 11 points but get all those benefits?

.....S4 T4 rending daemonettes for 11 points apiece? Alrighty! Bit odd specifying they don't gain rending vs vehicles, but ah well. It seems like the Tzeentch daemons get a raw deal for 16 points, though. Maybe make their invul 4+ as well, or increase the gun to assault 3.

"Lesser and Greater Daemons do not occupy a slot on the Force Organisation Chart (and therefore cannot count as the mandatory choices), but are otherwise treated as Troops and HQ choices respectively"
So no, they do not take up a FoC slot and as the -5pts benefits only apply to models/units with a Warband Icon - which Daemons cannot take - they are 16pts for what you describe.
Also, it states "conferring the ‘normal’ bonuses as well as those listed below" so the Tzeentch Daemons are 4++.

Gift of the Gods - Woah, woah, WOAH! I can pay points for terminators, pay points for champions, pay points for gift, and become spawn?

Actually I just read the statline for spawn - alright, not that bad. And it would be a unit of 10 of them? 10d6 S6 attacks eh? I can live with that.

Not quite; only Terminator Champion units of 5-men can take gifts. Regarding spawn, you would have paid 45pts for each Terminator (and then any upgrades) with Gift of the Gods; this unit however could then become spawn; costing you at least 150pts worth of upgrades and your intentions for the Terminator Unit. However, alternatively your 450pts terminator unit could be able to re-roll armour saves (potentially 2+,3++ re-rollable), gain +10D3 attacks, better strength and more.
The rewards and risks for Gift of the Gods is high.

Something I've always wanted to see in a chaos codex, and yet never see it: Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.

Read the fluff. Chaos Marines are itching to fight marines all the time. They'll perform raids and stuff just to get marines out there so they can fight them. They consider guard easy and boring, and they always talk about how well they know their tactics, fighting style, and even ways to get around their armour by hitting them in the weak spots. All CSM should have preferred enemy: Space Marines, and if not all, at LEAST all the elite and HQ units.

That would really need to be included in the Space Marine Codex, who'd benefit from it significantly less as they don't like close combat. Fluff-wise it makes sense, I agree, however game =/= fluff all the time and this would be very difficult to implement.

Chaos Spawn should be 40 points. Compare them to ogryns. You'll be higher initiative, faster, higher strength but not as good an armor save and no gun. Compared to grotesques, you're faster but don't have fnp. 40 sounds better for those guys. They have a daemon prince statline, except for skills and speed.

I can see what you're saying, but Ogryn's are generally considered a rubbish unit. Similarly, they can actually embark on transports and aren't such a big target. Daemon Princes on the other hand are monstrous creatures and so get all those benefits.

Same problem with dreadknights: You say wings make you jump infantry. Clarify for daemon princes.

Good point.

Greater daemons: Still have the high initiative problem with terrain slowing us down, even the Slaanesh's initiative 8 is a bit of a waste then. No Eternal Warrior, still? Or will the Daemon rule be applied to this codex?

Damn. Swear I had Eternal Warrior in their somewhere. Yes; both Daemons are still immune instant death, I just hadn't written it! Good point again.

----

That's all I've got time to answer to tonight; I'll attend to the rest tomorrow. I will point out the following contradictions in your suggestions:

S7 isn't very good at killing vehicles. Relying on noisemarines for anti-tank is pretty much a mistake,

If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? ...
give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range

Cheers, Dave. Btw Spellbound; what's your general opinion on my 'dex?

Hey o/

Nice to see a good work like this one !
I will recomend it to my friend who play CSM.
By what I can read, I think he will be very pleased !
(and we are fond of friendly games with special rules or fan dex, so no problem to test it )

I wanna see some battle reports with this Codex just to see how it turns out.

S7 can kill rhinos. But wasting everyone's fire and standing still so one guy can fire 4 shots is not very good. If every 1kson had a s7 shot, though, that's a lot of shots going into that tank. Look at what grey knights get for 20 points: 4 strength 7 rending or EIGHT s7 rending if they stay still. Put it in perspective.

11 points seemed like a steal for the slaanesh demons, 16 is a ripoff if they can't rend vehicles. Take off the no-vehicle thing or give them the grenades that codex daemons daemonettes have. Or just use codex: daemons daemons.

And yeah, I got that when it rebels you don't get any saves. What I mean is, does it still ignore enemy armor saves. You said it loses all its abilities, I was wondering if that includes being a power weapon.

And why is a daemon weapon more expensive for a daemon prince anyway? They already ignore armour saves, which is a large part of the daemon weapon's cost. They don't really have any more attacks and they already wound on a 2+, so giving extra strength is mind of a moot point. Other abilities like poisoned 3+ actually nerf the daemon's strength. Sure they get a re-roll, but so would a S4 chaos lord against many things.

And doombolt is not likely to kill 2 terminators a turn. 3 shots, 2+ to hit still leaves only 2 hitting well within the realm of possibility. It wounds on a 3+, so that's still about 2, and most terminators are 3++, grey knight [4++], in cover if they're worried about it, or have their 5++ still. Combine it all you're probably just killing one. FYI, the primaris psyker is like 55 points and his power does 2d6 strength 6 hits.

Lucius the Eternal was the specific character I was looking at. I was comparing him to a typical character that can achieve similar things for fewer points. A wolf lord can be eternal warrior and get the re-rolls on everything, not just enemy independent characters, and have a 4+ invul save all the time, not just against characters and monsters, for cheaper. He doesn't have a doomsiren and WS7 I7, though, which I'll admit comes in handy.

My problem is accepting the costs we have to pay for some of these high stats. The same thing happens in warhammer fantasy, but even MORE often. A chaos lord will pay through the nose to be WS 8, meanwhile something 2/3 his points is WS6 with re-rolls to hit. Sure the chaos lord hits THAT guy on a 3+, but he's hitting everything else on a 3+ with a re-roll, and even against the chaos lord he's hitting on a 4+ with a re-roll, meaning BETTER odds. High stats really doesn't change much. Once you hit WS5, you're hitting nearly every trooper on a 3+ and it never gets any better which is something I HATE about the rule system. Yes WS8 can hit WS7 on a 3+, but he hits WS2 on a 3+ as well, so what's he paying points for? Things like that should be chosen to match the fluff of the character they're given to and in all honesty should be FREE in terms of points, as you're paying a lot for something that will only come up in certain situations. GW themselves show how much they think initiative matters - Purifiers pay TWO points to up their initiative from 4 to 6 with their force weapons.

I think the special characters should have more fancy rules. Not necessarily to make them more deadly - yeah it's nice to get re-rolls to everything for example - but to make them more characterful. Lucius's whip and skill could be made into some sort of parry rule. Take away all re-rolls [though re-rolling to hit for being such a good swordsman would be nice], give him a lot of attacks, and have him basically sacrifice an attack to rob enemy models of attacks. Say Lucius gets 5 base attacks, plus one for two weapons. A chaplain charges and has 5 attacks total. Lucius sacrifices all but one attack, takes away all the chaplain's attacks, and still has one to spare to get in lucky thrusts.

Or go with the old Lucius's rules, which were very nice. Few attacks when dealing with scrubs that don't interest him, and bumped to 5 attacks when his opponent had WS5 or higher. Add in "or is a monstrous creature" if you like. Personally I've always wondered why he doesn't carry a Blissgiver, and whatever happened to combat drugs, anyway? It would be great to have them as a wargear option again, but failing that at least give them back to Lucius. His own "kill me, become me" fluff story could be represented with a Crowe-like sacrificial strike where the model that kills him counts as killed for VPs or whatever - so if a Hive tyrant kills Lucius he gives up his VPs and counts as a kill point, but isn't taken off the field.

Typhus's psychic powers can't be nullified - why? why him? Why CAN Ahriman's powers be nullified? Isn't Ahriman the better sorcerer? I'm fine if both want to pass psychic tests automatically because they're both skilled psykers [though I know at the moment you don't have typhus able to do that] but Typhus just seems to be the better sorcerer here. Also, as a general rule of thumb, compare Ahriman to Njal stormcaller. At the moment, in the current official chaos codex, Njal stormcaller is totally better than Ahriman in every single possible way imaginable - just keep comparing the two until they seem about equal in power, or tone down Ahriman's cost.


Honestly that's just what I keep seeing: Horrible inconsistencies, when I compare your units to other codexes. Daemon prince statline on chaos spawn for cheaper than similar units like Ogryns. Yeah Ogryns can fit in a transport, but spawn are fleet and none of those transports can move and assault, so they don't get THAT much more movement. Ogryns have a gun - but that balances the spawn being S6 and having a 5+ invul to the Ogryn's 4+ armor. I really think your spawn should be S5 or 40 points or something in-between.

Abaddon is the fearless leader of the Black Legion, but he knows when to retreat [he has, many times before now]. Let him choose to pass or fail morale tests for him and his unit. And make his unit have better stats - WS5, even. I'm constantly disappointed that though CSMs have been alive since the days of the Heresy and fighting constantly, they're no better than the new recruits of the space marine legions. Aspiring champions should be WS5 across the board, and Abaddon's bodyguard should be too.

I hear what you're saying about lord mounts. Simple fact: Nobody takes one, ever. EVER. Competitive lists, fun lists, they're just not good. Know what's good? A thunderwolf mount. It makes them fast, it makes them tough, it makes them stronger and deadlier. They also have a better wargear setup so they CAN be more resilient. They can take storm shields, and the belt of russ, and otherwise get better invul saves than chaos generally can, because apparently chaos can't pick up a storm shield. A thunderwolf mount isn't just a bike, it's not toughness 4(5) it's toughness FIVE, which makes a MASSIVE difference in surviving melta shots and missile launchers. THAT is when it becomes worth it, and that's why we see wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts commonly, and yet NEVER see chaos lords on steeds.


And no, your army list doesn't say only units of 5 can buy the gift of the gods. Only units of 5 can purchase one of the Gifts of Chaos, but the 5 point roll on the table can be made for an entire 10-man unit of champions if you wanted.

And yeah after reading the entries for the gifts of the gods, the only one I hate is 2. 1 is..... hit or miss. Yeah, you don't have your terminators anymore. But the unit you now have is ridiculously powerful still, and while the enemy gets the KP for the terminators, they don't get an additional one for the spawn so you can just throw them out at whatever you like. I just hate things that do NOTHING. Chaos seems to be the only army book where you can PAY for potentially NOTHING. Random buff? Sure. Random buff with chance for penalty? ergh.... not... uh-uh, don't really like it. BUT, it's only 5 points, so not that worried about it.


Um....why....why would preferred enemy: Space Marines need to be included in the space marine codex? Marines learn how to use their armor, sure, but they're not studying how to dismantle each other the way chaos space marines do. And CSM can modify their armor to suit their tastes or, often, grow into their armour so it's like their skin. The same rules don't go the other way. It's easy to implement that rule. All chaos space marines [not daemons or vehicles, which are too clumsy to really take advantage of such weaknesses] gain PE: Space Marines. Done deal.

Speaking of dreadnoughts, many times in the fluff CSMs [well, at least Word Bearers] will use dreadnoughts for sage advice. A dreadnought option for a chaos lord would be pretty neat. Just like buying terminator armour, you can buy a walker sarcophagus for x amount of points and it comes with a scourge and a gun. Keep the 5+ invulnerable save and some of the gift of chaos options. That one needs more thought, but it's a neat idea.

Have you considered rewriting other codecies like Eldar or Tyranids? I think it would be neat to start a fandex team on Dakka, fixing really bad things and sending them into GW to be ignored.


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Also, as a Tzeentch fan, I've got to say that the Tzeentch psychic powers (especially the Warcoven) is just too powerful. If the squad is large enough I can kill any enemy unit per turn by looking at them too hard. I've been thinking about what you've said about rhinos being too fragile, but they're still fast enough to get the job done. Besides, there are plenty of assault armies that would be destroyed during turns running at them. Consider this: Bolt of change has a range of 18". A Rhino with an assault unit goes flat out, 18". With proper spacing, a skilled player could wreck the transport, kill most of the squad off and send the survivors running. Even if they DO get into close combat, force weapons are 10 pts each. Three carriers properly spread out can attack six units in close combat and insta-gib each of them.

It's not a hard fix, too. I'd reccomend lowering Doom Bolt (which humbles even the most powerful terminators) to Assault 2, lowering the Strength of Bolt of Tzeentch to 9 at the least, making players pay for their powers (even if it's just ten points) OR limiting the number of sorcerers per squad. As it stands, these guys are the most powerful squad in the whole codex. If my guesstimation is correct, they could even take out most of the special character rosters.

A fluffy reccomendation would be to swap their BS and WS. Tzeentch armies are supposed to be squishy and shooty, not tough and choppy.

Another option I just thought of would be limiting them to one squad of warcovens per army. Psykers aren't easy to come by, and despite that the Thousand Sons were known for their extreme number of sorcerers, having more than 20 per army is a little cheesy. It was cheesy when the Grey Knights did it, despite that they had the whole galaxy as their recruiting grounds, and a squad of psykers, each individually very powerful is still cheesy. I was ecstatic when I heard that each Grey Knight squad would be able to use a psychic power, and I thought it was a genuinely good idea to only let them use a single psychic power per turn (which affected the whole squad). This feels like overkill to me. A squad of five sounds like a good number just thinking about it, that's three potential Str 5 AP2 As. 3 attacks, 9 in total and two Str 10 AP1 As. 1 attacks, which has a 2/3 chance to hit/wound and would kill approximately 3 terminator marines for a total cost of 230 (for 5 warcoveners and 3 force swords.) An assault squad of Terminators costs 200 points for 5, meaning that in a single round of average shooting, they're likely to almost make up their entire point value against a force that costs only slightly less.

loving that dread idea for the HQ lord, would love to move one of those through the enemy ^.^

Grenat wrote:Hey o/

Nice to see a good work like this one !
I will recomend it to my friend who play CSM.
By what I can read, I think he will be very pleased !
(and we are fond of friendly games with special rules or fan dex, so no problem to test it )

Thanks Grenat! Much appreciated! Please recommend it to your friend; I'm about to implement an update, but otherwise it's my pleasure. Please tell me what he thinks of it! Cheers!

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I wanna see some battle reports with this Codex just to see how it turns out.

Me and you both!
From the little reports people have given me it seems pretty balanced and no more powerful than existing Codices.

Spellbound wrote:Why are obliterators costing more, but get worse in every way? No eternal warrior [not that they should have it, unless you leave them T4], still S4 T4, and have to pick 2 weapons, so they're worthless in assault if you want an assault weapon and a long-ranged weapon?

How are they worse in every way?! The only way they are worse is that they cost 5pts more; otherwise they are the same as the current Obliterators (a very good unit) but are actually capable of possessing more firepower.

Chaos vindicator still pays same price as marine vindicator and doesn't come with the second gun? k.

To be fair, that's how it is in the current Codex. Still, it was an omission and has been changed.

What the hell reason do you have for the daemon prince price jump, by the way? Building a lash prince as I have it now is 155 points. Under your codex, the exact same model with the exact same abilities, with +1 invul save, costs 215! And it's not really any harder to kill! How in the world can you justify that?

I've stated my reasoning behind this before. Look at the current Daemon Prince compared to the Lord/Sorcerer and what you get for 10pts more. The Daemon Prince's cost has been changed recently anyway, but as I said I've stated my reasoning behind this several times. Similarly, compare him to the Dreadknight and Carnifex/Tyrant/Trygon.

I dunno, some things I like but on the whole, things seem way overpowered or WAY WAY overcosted. And the marks seem more about restricting what you can take, rather than granting access to mark-only things. What if I want a Slaanesh-marked defiler with I4, but I don't want blastmasters? Why does it have fewer attacks? Why does that upgrade cost so many points?

If you don't want Blastmasters then you just use the ordinary defiler? The -1 attack was due to balance and to focus it on shooting; where you pay points for the 8 Strength 7 shots.

You need to rethink some of those options. Rather than saying "you get the mark of slaanesh, and this and this, and you lose this and this, period, if you pay x points" say "you may buy the mark of slaanesh, which gives you this bonus. Then you can buy these upgrades". Now, when I'm paying points, I'm getting a BENEFIT [+1 initiative], and I've now unlocked the OPTION to buy myself blastmasters if I like the idea of a dakka defiler running around [though I still can't fire the battle cannon and another gun, which kinda blows. Might fix that, or allow the battle cannon to be replaced], or maybe even allow the heavy flamer to be a twin-linked doomsiren, or make a vehicle-class doomsiren that's S6.

I designed the mark-specific defilers to be as they're described in the fluff (look up defilers on lexicanum for an example). If you don't want that flavour of defiler then can you not just use a normal defiler?

And why do the warbands have such arbitrary restrictions? No bikers for Tzeentch? No Vindicators for Slaanesh? Where's the fluff behind those, or did each legion just HAVE to have something they can't bring?

Both. Have you ever heard of The Thousand Sons using Bikers? Can you imagine when they were taken from prospero by Tzeentch he took their bikes with them too? It's seemingly unheard of in the fluff and doesn't suit their playstyle.
Vindicators are a very blunt, crude instrument. Slaanesh and the Emperors children appear to prefer grace and flow; enjoying the pleasure and delicacy of an enemy being methodically picked apart, rather than smashed into pieces. Quite simply a Vindicator doesn't appear to suit Slaanesh or the Emperors Children. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

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You buy the mark for a unit for a MODEL in the unit. Does this mean the mark goes away if that model dies? You clarified that if you combat squad both combat squads get the benefit of a purchased mark - so how does that work?

Maybe change it to the UNIT buys the mark. At which point I'd like to suggest maybe taking it back to the old school days and paying x points for the marks for each model, that way a 5-man squad and a 15-man squad pay appropriately for it, rather than 5-man squads being HOSED and 15-man getting off real cheap.

That was due to it originally being Icons; I simply replaced Icon with Mark, however you are correct with your observation and this has now been changed to make it the mark for the entire squad as was intended. Thanks.

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Sacred numbers: Don't force small squads on people. Make the max unit size 20 models, and give the free champion to any multiple of the sacred number.

Think of army composition. If I want all noisemarines, how do I kill tanks? Blastmasters are mediocre but kind of an unreliable waste. If I go berserkers, they can at least take plasma pistols and honestly their hth attacks are good enough. Plaguemarines take normal meltaguns. Thousand Sons are stuck with the sorcerer trying to pop tanks. Perhaps provide options for the cult units to all be able to take care of armour? Why can't a noisemarine take a meltagun? Why can't a standard noisemarine carry a doomsiren? Only one blastmaster per squad? Look at grey knights for example - paying a lot of points per trooper, they don't depend on taking anti-tank meltaguns in their squads, they have the option to take 2 psycannons to handle anti-tank and anti-horde. Allow noisemarines to take multiple blastmasters and give thousand sons either the option to take a meltagun [seriously, why can't they?] or have an alternate profile for their bolters - instead of rapid-firing the bolter shells, give them a 12" shot that's S6 or 7 but has no AP or is AP6. Gives them the ability to pop transports at close range and two units can work together, one popping a transport and the other gunning down those inside, rather than being absolutely FORCED to depend on long-range fire from elsewhere in the army or being FORCED to take regular CSMs for the sole purpose of having some meltaguns.

In answer to many of your questions: balance and fluff.
Noise Marines all wielding Doom Sirens or Meltaguns would be far too powerful for the former and doesn't fit with the fluff for the latter.
The Noise Marines are pretty much as capable as popping tanks as the 'Zerkers; both can take PF and MB's; both can have 4 Str7 shots.
Thousand Sons are uniform and automaton; they don't appear to have specialist troopers other than the Sorcerers.
Regarding the need to take certain types of units to fulfil certain roles; that's the case within almost all codices.

Spellbound wrote:S7 can kill rhinos. But wasting everyone's fire and standing still so one guy can fire 4 shots is not very good. If every 1kson had a s7 shot, though, that's a lot of shots going into that tank. Look at what grey knights get for 20 points: 4 strength 7 rending or EIGHT s7 rending if they stay still. Put it in perspective.

Many units have only a single weapon that forces the rest to just watch (e.g. Psycannons vs. vehicles, Sorcerers vs. Vehicles, Tactical Marines heavy weapons, Grey Hunters vs. vehicles, the list goes on), it's nothing new for Noise Marines, if anything it's less of a problem due to squad size.
In perspective as you demand I do so; the Grey Knights are a completely different army with a different play-style (released after this fandex I might add), who lack anti-tank elsewhere and therefore must fulfil it with the Psycannon which is known as a VERY powerful weapon.
The Blast Master serves to add a greater punch to the Noise Marines; increasing their firepower and even allowing them to take out light vehicles if the situation demands it. The Blast Master is more akin to an autocannon than a psycannon IMHO and autocannons are a well-respected weapons that are used to take out light-vehicles and infantry alike. The Blast Master can possess just as many Str7 shots as a Rifleman dreadnought; what's considered a strong build.
The Blast Master firing 4 str7 shots would also be accompanied by 20 str4 shots; allowing them to work against infantry as was intended.
The Blast Master is primarily anti-infantry, however it can work against vehicles at a push; much like Noise Marines themselves.

11 points seemed like a steal for the slaanesh demons, 16 is a ripoff if they can't rend vehicles. Take off the no-vehicle thing or give them the grenades that codex daemons daemonettes have. Or just use codex: daemons daemons.

The Grenades thing is an idea which I'll consider.
I've also covered in-depth why I'm not porting the entries straight from the Daemons Codex, but basically it comes down to balance.
I can see what you're saying about the rending, but bear in mind 5pts for Fleet, +1 Initiative and Non-vehicle rending is still a good deal; rending alone can be worth those 5pts.

And yeah, I got that when it rebels you don't get any saves. What I mean is, does it still ignore enemy armor saves. You said it loses all its abilities, I was wondering if that includes being a power weapon.

Yep, that would include power weapon status.

And why is a daemon weapon more expensive for a daemon prince anyway? They already ignore armour saves, which is a large part of the daemon weapon's cost. They don't really have any more attacks and they already wound on a 2+, so giving extra strength is mind of a moot point. Other abilities like poisoned 3+ actually nerf the daemon's strength. Sure they get a re-roll, but so would a S4 chaos lord against many things.

Due to feedback; originally I had them at the same price because I thought the loss of power weapon bonus was enough; however feedback has seemed to suggest that with a Daemon Weapon they can become VERY powerful and I have to agree. The +D6 attacks is a big thing, whilst the other bonuses Daemon Weapons are also very powerful. I'd imagine 3+ re-rollable is actually better odds than 2+, whilst I'd also imagine the lord would be 4+'ing most things without a Daemon Weapon.

Lucius the Eternal was the specific character I was looking at. I was comparing him to a typical character that can achieve similar things for fewer points. A wolf lord can be eternal warrior and get the re-rolls on everything, not just enemy independent characters, and have a 4+ invul save all the time, not just against characters and monsters, for cheaper. He doesn't have a doomsiren and WS7 I7, though, which I'll admit comes in handy.

Please described to me such a Wolf Lord...
I'm pretty pleased with Lucius actually; the Doomsiren itself is a powerful weapon, whilst eternal warrior, re-rolling wounds, initiative and WS all make him a deadly combatant, but even more so against characters IMHO.

I think the special characters should have more fancy rules. Not necessarily to make them more deadly - yeah it's nice to get re-rolls to everything for example - but to make them more characterful. Lucius's whip and skill could be made into some sort of parry rule. Take away all re-rolls [though re-rolling to hit for being such a good swordsman would be nice], give him a lot of attacks, and have him basically sacrifice an attack to rob enemy models of attacks. Say Lucius gets 5 base attacks, plus one for two weapons. A chaplain charges and has 5 attacks total. Lucius sacrifices all but one attack, takes away all the chaplain's attacks, and still has one to spare to get in lucky thrusts.

I'd rather just have Lucius be more likely to kill the Chaplain before he attacks than rely on a single attack.

Typhus's psychic powers can't be nullified - why? why him? Why CAN Ahriman's powers be nullified? Isn't Ahriman the better sorcerer? I'm fine if both want to pass psychic tests automatically because they're both skilled psykers [though I know at the moment you don't have typhus able to do that] but Typhus just seems to be the better sorcerer here. Also, as a general rule of thumb, compare Ahriman to Njal stormcaller. At the moment, in the current official chaos codex, Njal stormcaller is totally better than Ahriman in every single possible way imaginable - just keep comparing the two until they seem about equal in power, or tone down Ahriman's cost.

Typhus' powers appear to be more of a result of his corruption and influence of Chaos IMHO; you can imagine the effects of Nurgles Rot or Winds just seeping from his armour and being, rather than being physically/consciously cast. I may change Typhus so his can be nullified however.
Ahriman is the better Sorcerer; he can cast 3 times as many powers and knows all the powers. He also can augment his powers.
I'm unsure why you're comparing the Ahriman in the GW Codex to Njal, when this is about my efforts at a fandex. I consciously made him comparable to Njal in mine. Ahriman is BS5, can cast 2 shooty powers, can augment his powers and can cast more powers per turn, as well as being tougher and cheaper. However, Njal has his own Lord of Tempests rule; the arguably better SW powers and better nullification, yet costs more.

I hear what you're saying about lord mounts. Simple fact: Nobody takes one, ever. EVER. Competitive lists, fun lists, they're just not good. Know what's good? A thunderwolf mount. It makes them fast, it makes them tough, it makes them stronger and deadlier. They also have a better wargear setup so they CAN be more resilient. They can take storm shields, and the belt of russ, and otherwise get better invul saves than chaos generally can, because apparently chaos can't pick up a storm shield. A thunderwolf mount isn't just a bike, it's not toughness 4(5) it's toughness FIVE, which makes a MASSIVE difference in surviving melta shots and missile launchers. THAT is when it becomes worth it, and that's why we see wolf lords on thunderwolf mounts commonly, and yet NEVER see chaos lords on steeds.

I know what you're saying; in retrospect I will likely change Chaos Steeds to be more akin to TWC Lords, although I don't see why some of your comments such as the bike comparison and extra wargear come into account?

And no, your army list doesn't say only units of 5 can buy the gift of the gods. Only units of 5 can purchase one of the Gifts of Chaos, but the 5 point roll on the table can be made for an entire 10-man unit of champions if you wanted.

I know my own Codex! I thought you were referring to gifts of Chaos.

And yeah after reading the entries for the gifts of the gods, the only one I hate is 2. 1 is..... hit or miss. Yeah, you don't have your terminators anymore. But the unit you now have is ridiculously powerful still, and while the enemy gets the KP for the terminators, they don't get an additional one for the spawn so you can just throw them out at whatever you like. I just hate things that do NOTHING. Chaos seems to be the only army book where you can PAY for potentially NOTHING. Random buff? Sure. Random buff with chance for penalty? ergh.... not... uh-uh, don't really like it. BUT, it's only 5 points, so not that worried about it.

And that's the big thing for me. As I said before, you can get big benefits or a loss. Chaos is fickle, but not in such a way where you can't influence it or it will completely ruin your game (compare to the almost entirely random and compulsory Daemons Codex deployment or the old Possessed).

Um....why....why would preferred enemy: Space Marines need to be included in the space marine codex? Marines learn how to use their armor, sure, but they're not studying how to dismantle each other the way chaos space marines do. And CSM can modify their armor to suit their tastes or, often, grow into their armour so it's like their skin. The same rules don't go the other way. It's easy to implement that rule. All chaos space marines [not daemons or vehicles, which are too clumsy to really take advantage of such weaknesses] gain PE: Space Marines. Done deal.

I'm not sure why you're going on about their armour?
Regarding preferred enemy; the Space Marines hate the Chaos Space Marines too; they are a blight on their record; their image as humanities ultimate protectors and the Emperors greatest creation; every Chaos Space Marine is a worthy threat to the Imperium and a mockery of all the astartes once stood for. The Space Marines are staunchly loyal to the Emperor and their heritage; they have every reason to hate the Chaos Space Marines; they are the anti-thesis of what they stand for, the shadow on their past and the destroyer of their nobility. They too would have preferred enemy: Chaos Space marines if the CSM's did.
They wont however; it's a pretty clumsy and unnecessary rule IMHO and as we know the fluff =/= tabletop, in an ideal world that would be the case but it's not and it's not going to be at least in my Codex as I'm not also doing Codex: Space Marines (for now ). Honestly, I would rather not discuss this further.

Speaking of dreadnoughts, many times in the fluff CSMs [well, at least Word Bearers] will use dreadnoughts for sage advice. A dreadnought option for a chaos lord would be pretty neat. Just like buying terminator armour, you can buy a walker sarcophagus for x amount of points and it comes with a scourge and a gun. Keep the 5+ invulnerable save and some of the gift of chaos options. That one needs more thought, but it's a neat idea.

"many times" and "at least Word Bearers" seems to contradict itself. Nonetheless, whilst they may be used as sage advice, it's a significant difference from the leader of a warband (who may go psycho for extended periods of time too). This would require a whole new stat-line and whilst a cool idea I think it's best left to the current dreadnoughts. I am investigating a way to make them a Heavy Support choice also however.
Some of your ideas would seem more suitable for your own attempts at a fandex IMHO, rather than inclusion in this one.

If I come across as rude Spellbound that would be because I'm trying to avoid writing too much (brevity) and it's how you've come across to me. You may notice I appear to much more polite to Zub and Pskyo for example as they are the same to me. It's not intended to offend. It's not that I'm rejecting your opinion - despite how I may have perceived you as saying/intending it - I've taken a lot of it into account, however I admit, I still disagree with some of it.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Have you considered rewriting other codecies like Eldar or Tyranids? I think it would be neat to start a fandex team on Dakka, fixing really bad things and sending them into GW to be ignored.

Ironically I'm currently brain-stormed ideas for the Eldar as I MAY do them next...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as a Tzeentch fan, I've got to say that the Tzeentch psychic powers (especially the Warcoven) is just too powerful. If the squad is large enough I can kill any enemy unit per turn by looking at them too hard. I've been thinking about what you've said about rhinos being too fragile, but they're still fast enough to get the job done. Besides, there are plenty of assault armies that would be destroyed during turns running at them. Consider this: Bolt of change has a range of 18". A Rhino with an assault unit goes flat out, 18". With proper spacing, a skilled player could wreck the transport, kill most of the squad off and send the survivors running. Even if they DO get into close combat, force weapons are 10 pts each. Three carriers properly spread out can attack six units in close combat and insta-gib each of them.

It's not a hard fix, too. I'd reccomend lowering Doom Bolt (which humbles even the most powerful terminators) to Assault 2, lowering the Strength of Bolt of Tzeentch to 9 at the least, making players pay for their powers (even if it's just ten points) OR limiting the number of sorcerers per squad. As it stands, these guys are the most powerful squad in the whole codex. If my guesstimation is correct, they could even take out most of the special character rosters.

A fluffy reccomendation would be to swap their BS and WS. Tzeentch armies are supposed to be squishy and shooty, not tough and choppy.

Another option I just thought of would be limiting them to one squad of warcovens per army. Psykers aren't easy to come by, and despite that the Thousand Sons were known for their extreme number of sorcerers, having more than 20 per army is a little cheesy. It was cheesy when the Grey Knights did it, despite that they had the whole galaxy as their recruiting grounds, and a squad of psykers, each individually very powerful is still cheesy. I was ecstatic when I heard that each Grey Knight squad would be able to use a psychic power, and I thought it was a genuinely good idea to only let them use a single psychic power per turn (which affected the whole squad). This feels like overkill to me. A squad of five sounds like a good number just thinking about it, that's three potential Str 5 AP2 As. 3 attacks, 9 in total and two Str 10 AP1 As. 1 attacks, which has a 2/3 chance to hit/wound and would kill approximately 3 terminator marines for a total cost of 230 (for 5 warcoveners and 3 force swords.) An assault squad of Terminators costs 200 points for 5, meaning that in a single round of average shooting, they're likely to almost make up their entire point value against a force that costs only slightly less.

Thanks for the feedback mate!
I can understand your concern; however would you still consider it a problem taking into account:
- Sorcerers still need a 3+ to hit with their nasty powers
- Sorcerers are only marginally tougher than your standard MeQ but cost almost 3x as much
- Sorcerers are very capable of killing themselves through perils
- Sorcerers can be nullified
- Sorcerers in sufficient quantity are very expensive.

As I said, I can understand your concerns; I think the Sorcerers are a fine line between balanced and too powerful. However, I do think they have several disadvantages to them; particularly with the amount of Psyker defence these days and how quickly a rhino could be taken out. I may limit their size or something however.
I must say, I'm unsure where you got your maths from, my simple maths puts them as killing about 1.7 termies in your above example:
- 9 Doombolt shots - 6 hit, 4 wound, 2.7 are saved from the 3++ which equals 1.3 dead TH/SS Termies.
- 2 Bolt of Change shots - 1.3' hit, 1.1' wound and only 0.4 unsave wounds are caused, totalling between 1 and 2 dead termies on average?
Against Tactical Marines this would still only be 5 dead marines I think...

This is all relying on them passing their tests and not suffering perils/nullification too.

Do you still worry about them now Psyko, considering what I've just described?

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A new update will be coming soon I would expect...
Thanks! As ever, all feedback is welcome!

Wolf Lord, Wolf Claw, Belt of Russ, Saga of the Bear - 180 points, re-roll hits or wounds, 4+ invul save, eternal warrior. But his 4+ save and re-rolling are against anything, not just characters. Add in a doomsiren and I suppose Lucius is alright, but I just can't justify spending points for weaponskill beyond WS6....honestly even 5. It becomes so situational.

And the prince is right alongside tervigons in points cost? Sure....but that tervigon can give itself FNP and has 6 wounds, not 4. I'm upset because after spending the points for upgrades I want [wings, mark, lash] I'm at 215 points, and if I wanted to take what I always wanted on my princes in the current codex [daemon weapon] I'm up at 270 points.....and I still die to a squad of bolters rapid-firing just like I did 115 points less before. It's absolutely ridiculous that such an important, expensive model should die so easily. If a wraithguard and Chaplain Cassius can be toughness 6, then so can a daemon prince, and they really need it [and no, I don't mean buy the mark of nurgle - that should make you T7, EXCEPTIONALLY tough, even immune to S3 weaponry]. In order to be survivable at that kind of cost, they've got to put bolters into the 6 to wound range and drop plasma and autocannons to the 3+ to wound range. Meltas and missles would still ruin their day, but that at least puts it in the hands of the player to "avoid those deadly things" as opposed to "just cross your fingers if you're in range of more than one unit of anything, because you're probably dead".

As for the obliterators, it seems like they have to choose two weapons when they're purchased - no? That's not how it works? Then how are they different than currently? Choose two weapons a turn, it says. I see "turn" now and then I wonder.... why two weapons a turn? They can't fire two weapons, can they? If not, then it seems like they're exactly the same except for adding the warp cannon option - so why do they cost more? They became a ripoff when they went up by 5 points and lost all their resiliency in the change from last codex to this one, why have they gotten none of that back and gone up again in yours? I don't understand. Shouldn't those behemoths be as tough as a plaguemarine, at least?

Well, I'd be happy to help, Dave.

Spellbound wrote:And the prince is right alongside tervigons in points cost? Sure....but that tervigon can give itself FNP and has 6 wounds, not 4. I'm upset because after spending the points for upgrades I want [wings, mark, lash] I'm at 215 points, and if I wanted to take what I always wanted on my princes in the current codex [daemon weapon] I'm up at 270 points.....and I still die to a squad of bolters rapid-firing just like I did 115 points less before. It's absolutely ridiculous that such an important, expensive model should die so easily. If a wraithguard and Chaplain Cassius can be toughness 6, then so can a daemon prince, and they really need it [and no, I don't mean buy the mark of nurgle - that should make you T7, EXCEPTIONALLY tough, even immune to S3 weaponry]. In order to be survivable at that kind of cost, they've got to put bolters into the 6 to wound range and drop plasma and autocannons to the 3+ to wound range. Meltas and missles would still ruin their day, but that at least puts it in the hands of the player to "avoid those deadly things" as opposed to "just cross your fingers if you're in range of more than one unit of anything, because you're probably dead".

You're only looking at the Tervigon; not the others I mentioned.
Still, it still requires A LOT of Bolters to cause a wound and you can still purchase (albeit not cheap, but such upgrades shouldn't be) FNP or a 2+ armour save to protect against these small arms. Ultimately, it's still durable against small arms, however it's now more durable against the things that would reliably and regularly hit him; heavy weapons. As a Daemon Prince, what would you fear more? A squad of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers or a Squad of Grey Hunters?
Ultimately, I've toned the price down a bit, but a DP is still a very powerful character and something that allows this guy to double his speed (wings) has been increased in cost appropriately. For the kind of punch this guy can provide; he needs to have a weakness but remain powerful. He can still hide behind vehicles too as he doesn't have the size of a Dreadknight or Trygon. I can't make him too powerful/tough as he would be OP. He's not a glass hammer but for balance purposes he needs to avoid being too tough IMHO.
I did consider making them T6 instead of 4++, but ultimately that can arguably make them too tough and with a MoN he would be tougher than even an actual Great Unclean one. Heck, if you can provide a good enough reason to, I'll still make it T6, but as it stands, it's not happening.

Currently, in the edited version which I'm hoping to post soon, a winged Daemon Prince is 180pts. I don't know about you, but I'd still pay for that. Forget that it was 50pts cheaper before, but here and now, that still seems like a perfectly viable purchase to me at the very least.

As for the obliterators, it seems like they have to choose two weapons when they're purchased - no? That's not how it works? Then how are they different than currently? Choose two weapons a turn, it says. I see "turn" now and then I wonder.... why two weapons a turn? They can't fire two weapons, can they? If not, then it seems like they're exactly the same except for adding the warp cannon option - so why do they cost more? They became a ripoff when they went up by 5 points and lost all their resiliency in the change from last codex to this one, why have they gotten none of that back and gone up again in yours? I don't understand. Shouldn't those behemoths be as tough as a plaguemarine, at least?

Well I now realise I forgot to state they could fire 2 weapons, however even without this rule which will now be added, they are still more flexible that their current status.
As to costing more? Obliterators are easily the most competitive Heavy Support option in the Chaos Space Marine Codex; a 5pts increase each (which in itself is minor) represents this and makes them slightly less of an auto-take but represents their arguable position of superiority within that part of the FoC slot. Ultimately they are now slightly better than they were before too.

I really don't get how they are not as tough as a Plague Marine other than their toughness characteristic: they have twice as many wounds, a better armour save and an invulnerable save. Obliterators are more durable than Plague Marines. I can't think of a weapon that is more effective against Obliterators than against PM's.

crazypsyko666 wrote:Well, I'd be happy to help, Dave.

Well, one thing you could help with is... Do you still worry about the Sorcerers Warcoven being too god in light of my previous post?

So I played a few games with it over the last few days and everyone was really impressed, as was I. I played 5, won 3, lost 1, drew 1. The few niggles that I had have actually been raised an dealt with already.

Great! Glad to hear it went well man. Mind if I ask for more details and what your overall thoughts were on it?
Thanks a lot 'taco!

The two that jumped out were Gifts of The Gods, the risk being quite high for some people, and the cost for the Daemon Prince. There were a few others, I'll get them some time soon, a few were quite big and specific. Like I said, I noticed that the under-costed Daemon Prince and the Gift of The Gods issue have both been addressed.

OK, cheers man. I look forward to the rest of your feedback! How did you find the Codex as a whole too btw?

I'm still concerned. I'll try to test this out with a friend of mine, but until that happens I'm resovled to say that they still aren't balanced.

Just Dave wrote:TS were tricky. I originally had a 3++ against shooting, however that still makes them as vulnerable against small arms as they all ready are and shouldn't be. FNP would be the simplest solution but risk making them too similar to Plague Marines and an extra wound benefits them in close combat where they should suffer the most problems.
If you could point out the problem with the All is Dust rule, then that'd be great, although politeness would be preferred. Otherwise, I struggle to see viable alternatives...

Based on the fluff you could give them an extra wound and it would be alright. I'm reading Battle of the Fang right now, and the rubric marines are badass in close combat, and current rules do not reflect that. The TS have the upperhand in cc because there is a sorcerer controlling them from the third person. Not only are they seeing the opponent, but they are seeing the rubric marine as well, and can arguably better asses the combat scenario on the fly. An extra would would make them more hearty, showing that they can go toe to toe with the best, or you can give them an extra attack, making them more lethal. An extra attack smacks of Khorne, so an extra wound seems more feasable. Most people will be loath to assault a troop unit with 2 wounds a piece, so this also would reflect how badass they are. Just an idea.

For 145 points a wolf lord can ride a thunderwolf mount and be 1 wound shy of the prince's survivability. You could argue he lacks an invul save - but he's an IC and not an MC, so can get cover easily and join a squad. I guarantee you if he wasn't able to do those things, he would be MUCH cheaper. He's also got two extra attacks more than a daemon prince and the counterattack rule, as well as being faster and not hurting himself on terrain. Oh, and he has grenades, so difficult terrain doesn't make him a slow as molasses scrub.

Let's compare others.

A hive tyrant is 170 points. He re-rolls 1's to miss in hth, reduces all enemies in base contact to I1, causes instant death if the enemy fails a leadership test, comes with two psychic powers, a psychic defense rule, and an army buff that makes everything in 12" fearless. He has the same strength, initiative, wounds, and number of attacks as a prince. He has an extra toughness, however as well as an extra weaponskill. He's missing eternal warrior and an invulnerable save - luckily he'll be killing most instant death-causing things before they get to strike, since he makes them initiative 1. Since he is so important, he is able to bring along tyrant guard, a single one of which makes him able to easily get a cover save as well as providing two more ablative wounds, without sacrificing toughness. Notice that so far, since these HQ units are so expensive and important, that they are either able to join units or able to spend relatively few points to greatly increase survivability.

A tervigon is 160 points. Same strength as a prince. 1 less attack, way less WS and initiative. Toughness 6, 6 wounds, same armor save. Also makes his army fearless nearby, can extend the range of that, has a psychic defense rule, and can create units.

And honestly you're asking me which I fear more, a squad of grey hunters or the long fangs? probably the grey hunters. Long fangs will have 5 shots, 3 hit, all wound. Probably pass one of those saves, so they do 2 wounds. Squad of grey hunters has 2 meltaguns and 8 guys. They cost almost the same amount of points. That's 2 meltas that are likely to cause 2 wounds, but we'll say between the chance of missing and my invul save that they do 1. 16 bolter shots have a decent chance of doing 2 wounds after shots, saves, etc. come into play. Let's say they just shoot the pistols, though, which causes on average 1 wound. Then they charge. I'm going first, so my 4 attacks will kill 2-3. They are very likely then to get 2 wounds between the 21-24 attacks they have left. A basic squad like this is in most every army, and there's usually multiples of them. It's not hard for two to manage to get shots off. A prince really needs to be made to be more survivable. Hell that squad could have had plasmaguns and at the current way things are, would have killed him just by shooting without any hth needed.

I could almost warrant your high cost if he was T6 base. As it is, though, not a chance. I grimace taking princes even now due to how ridiculously easy they are to kill. Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.

And obliterators - well, if you were able to shoot two weapons then that's great! Two twin-linked plasmaguns at short range would be nice. Why the emphasis on extra offense though, and forgetting their defense? LOOK at the MODEL! Why does a plaguemarine have a higher toughness than that? You keep mentioning his 2 wounds, but a plaguemarine with a meltagun is less than half his cost and could kill him in one shot. But I see we are going to have to agree to disagree here. My opinion? 75 points is too much, without the S5 T4(5) they used to have. 80 isn't HORRIBLE if they can fire two weapons per turn, but it's still high.

Rubric marines need their 2 wounds back. This 4+ invul save they have now is BS. Sure it helps them out in close combat - but if they have 1 attack each, they're still not that great, just very resilient. Being hard to kill doesn't make you "good" in close combat. Being deadly does. You could make them always initiative 1, too.

Sharkvictim wrote:Based on the fluff you could give them an extra wound and it would be alright. I'm reading Battle of the Fang right now, and the rubric marines are badass in close combat, and current rules do not reflect that. The TS have the upperhand in cc because there is a sorcerer controlling them from the third person. Not only are they seeing the opponent, but they are seeing the rubric marine as well, and can arguably better asses the combat scenario on the fly. An extra would would make them more hearty, showing that they can go toe to toe with the best, or you can give them an extra attack, making them more lethal. An extra attack smacks of Khorne, so an extra wound seems more feasable. Most people will be loath to assault a troop unit with 2 wounds a piece, so this also would reflect how badass they are. Just an idea.

Just started reading that yesterday, so don't give me any story spoilers!
The problem with 2 wounds that I see is that it makes them arguably tougher than Plague Marines. How about making them S4(5), T4(5)?
Without grenades etc. they are not a good assault unit, however with S4(5), T4(5), I4 and the Sorcerer, they are a tough unit who would be able to hold their own if assaulted, although they would still have only 1 attack. They would still be definably more 'fragile' than Plague Marines however.
They'd be tough against shooting and assault, and be strong in assault, but more as a defensive, rather than offensive force.
Thoughts on making them S4(5), T4(5) instead?
As I said, I'm reluctant to make them 2 wounds however due to how strong this is for a troops choice and how it makes them arguably tougher than PM's.

Spellbound wrote:And honestly you're asking me which I fear more, a squad of grey hunters or the long fangs? probably the grey hunters. Long fangs will have 5 shots, 3 hit, all wound. Probably pass one of those saves, so they do 2 wounds. Squad of grey hunters has 2 meltaguns and 8 guys. They cost almost the same amount of points. That's 2 meltas that are likely to cause 2 wounds, but we'll say between the chance of missing and my invul save that they do 1. 16 bolter shots have a decent chance of doing 2 wounds after shots, saves, etc. come into play. Let's say they just shoot the pistols, though, which causes on average 1 wound. Then they charge. I'm going first, so my 4 attacks will kill 2-3. They are very likely then to get 2 wounds between the 21-24 attacks they have left. A basic squad like this is in most every army, and there's usually multiples of them. It's not hard for two to manage to get shots off. A prince really needs to be made to be more survivable. Hell that squad could have had plasmaguns and at the current way things are, would have killed him just by shooting without any hth needed.

I'm unsure where you're getting your maths from. My basic maths, suggests that:
2 Meltaguns - 1.33' hit, 1.1' wound, 0.55' wounds unsaved. (with Plasma Guns this is 1.1 unsaved - so he wouldn't be dead just from shooting.)
8 Boltguns - 10.6' hit, 3.5' wound, 1.18 wounds unsaved.
Total unsaved - 1.7.
In close combat:
30 attacks - 15 hit, 5 wound, 1.66' unsaved. No?

I could almost warrant your high cost if he was T6 base. As it is, though, not a chance. I grimace taking princes even now due to how ridiculously easy they are to kill. Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.

That strikes me as odd, as as it stands, Daemon Princes are considered a very good choice, rather than warranting 'grimace' or 'same steaming pile'...

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I would like to discuss this civilly however, rather than throwing such terms about regarding the T6 on the DP; would you be wanting this on top of, or instead of the 4++?

Just Dave wrote:OK, cheers man. I look forward to the rest of your feedback! How did you find the Codex as a whole too btw?

Absolutely great. The best points are the Warband rules, Heretics, Gift of the Gods and Summoned Daemons. I play Word Bearers, very fluff oriented so all these additions means I can actually play my army how I want it. The Warband rules especially, allows me to field a Dark Apostle. Gift of The Gods was hilariously fun to use, especially when you have 3 out 5 terminators turn to spawn in a game. Not to worry though, I use Terminators in all my lists and it only happened one other time out of the 5 games (IIRC) I played. It performed really well. I'm an average commander, but I found the codex very easy to read and understand which actually made me half decent which is a testament to the effort and quality put in to the book. My opposition agrees however, that it isn't over-powered, just very good, like Dark Eldar levels of good on the table, which is competitive but not absolute top and therefore not subject to ridicule like SW or IG. With a little bit of discussion I should be able to post a battle report, my Word Bearers against Orks, and also a detailed explanation of what some people spotted as being a bit iffy.

For your price, definitely on top of.

And no, princes aren't considered good now. They're considered better than overpriced sorcerers and weak, emo wrist-cutting chaos lords. I honestly liked the old mastery rules, if you kill anyone make a leadership test and if failed take a wound with no saves. They didn't give plus d6 attacks back then though. I'm fine with taking a wound, but all these extra penalties just feels like chaos gets kicked while it's down. Can't the penalty be, after losing a wound of course, that you only got one extra attack?

Hell I just wish they'd copy/paste the old chaos lord entry and put it in the next codex. Perfect customizability back then.

Can I just suggest one thing? I like everything in the codex except this.

What about adding a Unit equivalent to "Chaos Venerable Dreadnought"? Lose the crazed rule, and gain a BS and a WS for maybe.... 70 points? I would pay a lot to have a great gun-tote like a venerable in my chaos army. It could be an elites, or maybe even an HQ choice.

iproxtaco wrote:Absolutely great. The best points are the Warband rules, Heretics, Gift of the Gods and Summoned Daemons. I play Word Bearers, very fluff oriented so all these additions means I can actually play my army how I want it. The Warband rules especially, allows me to field a Dark Apostle. Gift of The Gods was hilariously fun to use, especially when you have 3 out 5 terminators turn to spawn in a game. Not to worry though, I use Terminators in all my lists and it only happened one other time out of the 5 games (IIRC) I played. It performed really well. I'm an average commander, but I found the codex very easy to read and understand which actually made me half decent which is a testament to the effort and quality put in to the book. My opposition agrees however, that it isn't over-powered, just very good, like Dark Eldar levels of good on the table, which is competitive but not absolute top and therefore not subject to ridicule like SW or IG. With a little bit of discussion I should be able to post a battle report, my Word Bearers against Orks, and also a detailed explanation of what some people spotted as being a bit iffy.

Great! I'm glad it seemed to go so well; I'm also really glad you enjoyed Gift of the Gods! It's almost certainly my favourite piece of wargear; you could have a character with 2+3++ re-rollable, or your 180pts character could get turned into a Chaos Spawn! I like the variety of things you used too; thematic and broad to help me!
Thankfully, that's the kind of power-level I was aiming for; 5th edition powerful (as any 5th edition Codex should be), but not over-powered. Basically how I'd hope the CSM Codex to be.
I really appreciate the feedback man; seriously. Thanks a lot man!
Of course, I also look forward to the later feedback, particularly hopefully working out any kinks. I look forward to a potential battle-report of sorts too.
Thanks again man, it's really helpful. Thank your friends for me too!

Spellbound wrote:For your price, definitely on top of.

And no, princes aren't considered good now. They're considered better than overpriced sorcerers and weak, emo wrist-cutting chaos lords. I honestly liked the old mastery rules, if you kill anyone make a leadership test and if failed take a wound with no saves. They didn't give plus d6 attacks back then though. I'm fine with taking a wound, but all these extra penalties just feels like chaos gets kicked while it's down. Can't the penalty be, after losing a wound of course, that you only got one extra attack?

Hell I just wish they'd copy/paste the old chaos lord entry and put it in the next codex. Perfect customizability back then.

uhuh.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Can I just suggest one thing? I like everything in the codex except this.

What about adding a Unit equivalent to "Chaos Venerable Dreadnought"? Lose the crazed rule, and gain a BS and a WS for maybe.... 70 points? I would pay a lot to have a great gun-tote like a venerable in my chaos army. It could be an elites, or maybe even an HQ choice.

Well, that's not in the Codex, so you like everything in the Codex.
I did consider that before, but I was unsure how to include it without creating another unit choice...
I assume with what you're suggesting you also meant the 'venerable' rule? I'm currently also looking into an upgrade that could make them a Heavy Support choice, as suggested by someone else. The easiest way would be to make Dreads a heavy support choice normally then have a separate unit like the one you describe as the elites choice - however the HS slot is pretty well accounted for as it is!
I may make the removal of crazed and adding the venerable rule as the MoCU additions, rather than the current.
What I'm currently thinking is an upgrade which makes the front armour 13 and the Dread a Heavy Support choice. (15-20pts-ish?) Then the MoN would either make the front armour 14, or - more likely - confer a rule akin to venerable?
I guess I could make a similar option to removed crazed and improve BS/WS and maybe add venerable, probably around 25-30pts for that, 60 with venerable...

Thoughts?

I like the idea of having a dread HQ, would field it like every game

maybe ws6, bs5, s6(10), F12, S12, R10, (To represent having a highly defended HQ,

Equipped with a dreadnought close combat weapon, incorporating a twin linked bolter, and a heavy bolter? on the other arm.

May take some different gun choices, (Multimelta, Reaper autocannon, Plasmacannon TL lascannon.) and a DCCW incorporating a twin linked bolter

may exhange one or both twin linked bolter(s) for a heavy flamer for 5points each

give him some upgrades from the codex that make sense and Voila

may also be an idea to allow him to be upgraded to a Venerable sorceror exchanging one of the DCCW for a Dread close combat force weapon and some psker powers

and be given some

Make it armor 13 like a furioso and we'd be good to go.

And hey, I get it. You want daemon princes to be super expensive "just for fun" choices just like flyrants. Fine. Just make sure the options for lords are amazing then, because princes will be a thing of the past.

Tyranic Marta wrote:I like the idea of having a dread HQ, would field it like every game

maybe ws6, bs5, s6(10), F12, S12, R10, (To represent having a highly defended HQ,

Equipped with a dreadnought close combat weapon, incorporating a twin linked bolter, and a heavy bolter? on the other arm.

May take some different gun choices, (Multimelta, Reaper autocannon, Plasmacannon TL lascannon.) and a DCCW incorporating a twin linked bolter

may exhange one or both twin linked bolter(s) for a heavy flamer for 5points each

give him some upgrades from the codex that make sense and Voila

may also be an idea to allow him to be upgraded to a Venerable sorceror exchanging one of the DCCW for a Dread close combat force weapon and some psker powers

and be given some

Honestly, it's highly unlikely I will include a HQ dreadnought option; I don't see the reasoning for it within the background; they can be used as sages, sources of advice and wisdom etc. but I've not heard of them being warband leaders except for the case of an Ironwarrior commander. In the vast majority of cases, they would be more suited for the elite role, or an almost venerable status like I'm working on, but I really don't see the reason for a HQ choice like that; for one thing they're unlikely to be too effective in-game although of course that's something that can be worked on.
Ultimately, you could just counts-as with a DP if you really wanted to.
I may consider it as a special character, but I highly doubt I'll make it a HQ choice tbh.

Spellbound wrote:Make it armor 13 like a furioso and we'd be good to go.

And hey, I get it. You want daemon princes to be super expensive "just for fun" choices just like flyrants. Fine. Just make sure the options for lords are amazing then, because princes will be a thing of the past.

No, I'm currently considering changing the Daemon Prince to T6 and whatnot.
What I don't care for however is you constantly throwing phrases around like "slow as molasses scrub.", "Making it cost more for the same steaming pile makes me ill.", "emo wrist-cutting chaos lords" etc. what I'm looking for is constructive feedback, not exaggerated vitriol tbh.
I appreciate some of the feedback you've provided; helped me identify mistakes such as the Oblits, Marks etc. but the above kind of comments just frustrate me tbh.
I understand you feel DP's should either cost less or be more survivable, that's all you needed to say.

See, now i want a Dread HQ for my IW army. Will have to look into converting a Venrable with a big feth off hammer.

Well, that's not in the Codex, so you like everything in the Codex.
I did consider that before, but I was unsure how to include it without creating another unit choice...
I assume with what you're suggesting you also meant the 'venerable' rule? I'm currently also looking into an upgrade that could make them a Heavy Support choice, as suggested by someone else. The easiest way would be to make Dreads a heavy support choice normally then have a separate unit like the one you describe as the elites choice - however the HS slot is pretty well accounted for as it is!
I may make the removal of crazed and adding the venerable rule as the MoCU additions, rather than the current.
What I'm currently thinking is an upgrade which makes the front armour 13 and the Dread a Heavy Support choice. (15-20pts-ish?) Then the MoN would either make the front armour 14, or - more likely - confer a rule akin to venerable?
I guess I could make a similar option to removed crazed and improve BS/WS and maybe add venerable, probably around 25-30pts for that, 60 with venerable...

Thoughts?

That sounds perfect. Literally ANYTHING that puts it on par with the furioso would make me happy. I'm tempted to say that you could make it a FA choice, just so it wouldn't take up those valuable slots other stuff

An HQ dread would be great, but I don't see a particular reason for one. They're so rare in the fluff... I think there's two that I know of. It would mess around with the banners and what-not too much.

OK, how's about this (attached) for the 'venerable' dreadnought?
It's not final yet, the name at the very least is pending. If it does go in it'll probably look something like that however. I admit, I'm not too sold on it yet however.

I'll also probably be adding a rule whereby if "Dreadnought has replaced its Close Combat Weapon with a Twin-linked Autocannon or a Missile Launcher then it may instead be taken as a Heavy Support Choice" - but this would not apply to the Grand Dreadnought as they are, of course, Elites.

I'll likely be changing the Daemon Prince to T6, but taking it's save down to 3+5++ again, with the Daemonic Protection gift available to improve it to 4++. This decision was influenced in no small part by the comments by Mannahnin here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/330496.page#2180581
It's cost will probably remain the same.

Thoughts?

I like the codex, But I've got confused by something. On the predator profile, it says"Hellcannon". On the summery, it says"hellfire". Was this a typo?

i quite like the Grand Dread rules. One query. You mention that it can't cast a psyker power if it rolls a 1 on the Crazed table, but then the Crazed rule isn't mention in the profile.

Is this a typo or is it just assumed that all Chaos Dreads are subject to the Crazed rule?