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Which is making up a rule to allow that. Which is the point.

I realize it's fluff, but I kinda just gave a reason why Grotsnik would never get a bonus to attack. As he wears the PK (or it replaces his hand, who knows), he only has 1 hand in which to wield a CCW, either a slugga or 'urty syringe. So now he only has 2 options - PK and pistol (no bonus) or PK and syringe (no bonus)

rigeld2 wrote:Which is making up a rule to allow that. Which is the point.

No it is applying the supplied rules to a situation not covered.

Claiming that you can choose any 2 weapons is making up rules.

Parsing out every weapon combination possible amongst the more than 2 weapons; then looking for the most specific rule is applying the rules given.

Kommissar Kel wrote:DR: you really need to add the rest of that quote, the parts after the comma:
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Placing a period where the comma is and then ending the quote changes the sentence and is altering the facts to fit your side of the debate.

You use the 2 weapons equipped, in the combinations of rules that follow.

If you HAVE 3, you can only USE 2, so you have to pick your 2 weapons and consult the rules for what you are using.

No need to make up any rules. since we can only use two weapons, and we have three, we have three subsets of two, so we pick one of those subsets and apply the rules for that set.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:DR: you really need to add the rest of that quote, the parts after the comma:
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Placing a period where the comma is and then ending the quote changes the sentence and is altering the facts to fit your side of the debate.

You use the 2 weapons equipped, in the combinations of rules that follow.

If you HAVE 3, you can only USE 2, so you have to pick your 2 weapons and consult the rules for what you are using.

The rules don't say that when you have 3 you choose two. Only when you have two SCCW choose 1 and never get a bonus attack.

You are making up rules to gain an advantage.

No the rules say that you can only use two weapons in close combat.

so if you have three, you can not use three, and must choose two to use in close combat, since you are only allowed to use two weapons even though you have three weapons.

no need to make up any rules, since you can only use two weapons in close combat.

Only when you have, and are using, two SCCW do you have to choose which to use and never gain the bonus for USING two SCCW.

DeathReaper wrote:No the rules say that you can only use two weapons in close combat.

so if you have three, you can not use three, and must choose two to use in close combat, since you are only allowed to use two weapons even though you have three weapons.

no need to make up any rules, since you can only use two weapons in close combat.

Only when you have, and are using, two SCCW do you have to choose which to use and never gain the bonus for USING two SCCW.

You are making up rules. You never get to choose two.

You may choose one if you have 2sccw.

You are making up rules.

Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

The rules say that you can use 2 equipped weapons in the combinations given; therefore you must parse out all weapons into combinations of 2 and see which combination is the most specific.

There is no: "Pick any 2 equipped weapons and use only that combination"; there is however the rules for the various combinations that you are told to use for your 2 weapons, and they have an order of specificity when actually read and thought about.

Fact: you are never told that.

Fact: when you are equipped with 2 different Special weapons you only use 1.

Fact: in all cases of the rules you only use 1 weapon; you just gain a bonus attack with that weapon for having a second weapon in certain cases.

DeathReaper wrote:Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

Technically you only ever fight with one weapon which may or may not get a bonus attack depending on the situation.

Having 3 weapons doesn't mean the section for having 2sccw doesn't apply.

DeathReaper wrote:Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

Fact: If you have to choose between two special weapons, you need go no further as you have already applied the rule.

DeathReaper wrote:Fact: you are only allowed to use two single-handed weapons in close combat.

If we have three or more how do we fight with only two?

There are no rules that cover that situation. Hence the statement that you must make up rules to allow it.

The section is called 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons' this tells us "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat..."

This establishes we use two-single handed weapons of the weapons we have equipped.

It says you never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

But that is only listed under the 'Two different special weapons' rules. If you are not using 'Two different special weapons' you do not use the rules for 'Two different special weapons'

You do use two weapons in close combat, even if you are using two different special weapons, since you 'never get the bonus attack for using two weapons'

rigeld2 wrote:There are no rules that cover that situation. Hence the statement that you must make up rules to allow it.

Not at all, since we are restricted to two weapons we must have to choose two weapons to fight with and consult the chart to find our combination.

don_mondo wrote:Fact: If you have to choose between two special weapons, you need go no further as you have already applied the rule.

If you have to choose between two different special weapons that you are wielding.

This is what you are not understanding, you have to be using the weapons to get the bonuses and penalties of said rules, if you are not using two different special weapons why would you use the rules for two different special weapons?

It is like having a bolter and a bolt pistol, if you do not use the bolter and instead use the bolt pistiol, you are not restricted from assaulting simply because you have a bolter.

DeathReaper wrote:The section is called 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons' this tells us "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat..."

This establishes we use two-single handed weapons of the weapons we have equipped.

It says you never get the bonus attack for using two weapons.

But that is only listed under the 'Two different special weapons' rules. If you are not using 'Two different special weapons' you do not use the rules for 'Two different special weapons'

You do use two weapons in close combat, even if you are using two different special weapons, since you 'never get the bonus attack for using two weapons'

rigeld2 wrote:There are no rules that cover that situation. Hence the statement that you must make up rules to allow it.

Not at all, since we are restricted to two weapons we must have to choose two weapons to fight with and consult the chart to find our combination.

don_mondo wrote:Fact: If you have to choose between two special weapons, you need go no further as you have already applied the rule.

If you have to choose between two different special weapons that you are wielding.

This is what you are not understanding, you have to be using the weapons to get the bonuses and penalties of said rules, if you are not using two different special weapons why would you use the rules for two different special weapons?

It is like having a bolter and a bolt pistol, if you do not use the bolter and instead use the bolt pistiol, you are not restricted from assaulting simply because you have a bolter.

You are making up rules. This equipped vs using is made up distinctions in your made up rules.

DeathReaper wrote:The section is called 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons' this tells us "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat..."

Note it says can use not is using. Huge difference there, if the model has 2 SCCW and 1 CCW it can use it must choose between the 2 SCCW to apply the bonus of choice and once the bonus of choice is applied take into effect that the rules say that the model may never gain a bonus attack for extra CCW.

nkelsch wrote:You are making up rules. This equipped vs using is made up distinctions in your made up rules.

No, the rules clearly tell us that we have two weapons we can use in close combat to make our close combat attacks.

It says can use, that denotes actual use. If you are not using a weapon to attack with why would you use rules for weapons you are not actually using?

Meaning they can use not just one weapon, they can use two weapons, so they are in fact using two weapons, since the section is titled 'Fighting with two-single handed weapons'.

Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

You are given specific permission to choose the grenade.

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

You are given specific permission to choose the grenade.

Page reference for this?

Because if its there I must have missed it.

I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

rigeld2 wrote:I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

Yes, because the rules are written with the assumption that you can always choose which weapon to use. It works for shooting, it works for mêlée. Even the bloody Relic Blade text makes perfect sense* if you accept that the writers meant you to always be able to choose your weapons.

* (Then there would be no contradiction between the 'two-handed' and the rules summary in the end, because the rules summary would replicate the effects of two-handed weapons perfectly.)

Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

Yes, because the rules are written with the assumption that you can always choose which weapon to use. It works for shooting, it works for mêlée. Even the bloody Relic Blade text makes perfect sense* if you accept that the writers meant you to always be able to choose your weapons.

* (Then there would be no contradiction between the 'two-handed' and the rules summary in the end, because the rules summary would replicate the effects of two-handed weapons perfectly.)

No rules are written with 'assumptions'. Shooting rules do not apply to CC. You are making up rules.

nkelsch wrote:No rules are written with 'assumptions'. Shooting rules do not apply to CC. You are making up rules.

All right. Stop using grenades then.


And I repeat it for thousandth time, that there are not rules that allow you to choose with which weapon you shoot either.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Lets say a model has a lightning claw, power sword, and Krak grenades. The model assaults a vehicle, how do we determine if we use a grenade vs. our lightning claw power sword combo?

You are given specific permission to choose the grenade.

Page reference for this?

Because if its there I must have missed it.

Really?
At best(?) I think you can say they are not optional.

At least from 63, unless you are meaning something I am missing.

editing to add:
I am reiterating the question because its implications cause issues relating to models have equipment and the stated rules for what happens when that equipment is used.

Can you tell me the paragraph from page 63 that allows you to choose to use the grenade instead of the ccw, because I looked there and could not find the explicit allowance to use a grenade instead of a CCW.

DeathReaper wrote:Can you tell me the paragraph from page 63 that allows you to choose to use the grenade instead of the ccw, because I looked there and could not find the explicit allowance to use a grenade instead of a CCW.

rigeld2 wrote:I thought it was on page 63 in the callout, but it's not there. And since Grenades aren't listed as CCWs you have no permission ever to use them. So by RAW you can't use em. Awesome.

More rules to make up. The implication exists, but no explicit allowance.

Perhaps you missed it the first time I posted. I repeated it in case you did.

...each model using them can only ever make one attack, regardless of the number of Attacks on their profile and any bonus attacks.

That's an explanation of what happens when they are used. That is not an explicit allowance to use them. They aren't CCW. There are no rules allowing the use of grenades.

OK, so I think I've figured it out. Since you don't have permission to choose a gun in the shooting phase, any model with more than 1 gun can never shoot. Since you cannot choose weapons in CC if you have more than 2, than those models can never attack. Since you cannot choose to use grenades against vehicles you have to use CCW against them, therefore, any models with 2+ guns, 3+ CCW, and grenades are going to be running around all game doing nothing. Somehow I think this is wrong...

I agree that it seems wrong. Find the permission to do any of those things.

If you can't, you have to make up rules - and I agree, you have to make up rules. And there's no real problem inherent with that.

Yakface wrote:ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine.

Yakface is correct, it boils down to two choices.
1) models with 3 or more weapons can never attack.

2) you must pick two weapons to attack with and consult the rules for the weapons you are using.

Yakface wrote:As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

thank you all for the discussion.