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DeathReaper wrote:

Yakface wrote:ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine.

Yakface is correct, it boils down to two choices.
1) models with 3 or more weapons can never attack.

2) you must pick two weapons to attack with and consult the rules for the weapons you are using.

Yakface wrote:As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

thank you all for the discussion.

Wrong, you can apply the rules that apply. If you have 2sccw you are told what to do and the penalty for choosing. Nothing allows you to chose 1 sccw and 1ccw if you are equipped with 2sccw even if you have more weapons.

Stop making up rules.

nkelsch, What rules allow a model with 3 or more weapons to fight?

DeathReaper wrote:nkelsch, What rules allow a model with 3 or more weapons to fight?

If a model has 2sccw he can attack even if he has hundreds of regular ccw. The rules for having 2sccw apply because he has 2sccw. That is the only place a choice is allowed and the penalty for choosing. Nothing allows you to ignore one of your sccw to use the other rule sets.

Read that section again, it details how models with 2 ccw's fight.

Where is the section about models with 3 or more ccws?

How about I throw a curve here, this particular argument is about a model that has 2 SCCW and 1 Pistol, Page 29 tells us that pistols counts as a close combat weapon but it doesn't say that it is a CCW so in this case we are not looking at a model with 3+CCWs we are looking at a model with 2 CCWs which are special and 1 Pistol. Now we look at the combinations we have 2 Specials and it says if we have 2 specials we choose one and never get a +1 for extra weapons.

I completely agree that the RAW are silly and require additional rules to make sense. I also admit that this is not an interpretation issue, it's a "the rules are effing missing" issue. You must create rules to fill the gaps. If you don't admit that to yourself, you're doing a disservice.

DeathReaper wrote:Read that section again, it details how models with 2 ccw's fight.

Where is the section about models with 3 or more ccws?

A model with 3 ccw has 2 ccw.

The parts about 2sccw and 1ccw are specific and override general. Nothing allows you to choose except if you have 2sccw. And then you never get a bonus attack.

And as Yakface noted, under one interpretation the rules work fine, and other the other they don't function at all.

Saiisil wrote:How about I throw a curve here, this particular argument is about a model that has 2 SCCW and 1 Pistol, Page 29 tells us that pistols counts as a close combat weapon but it doesn't say that it is a CCW so in this case we are not looking at a model with 3+CCWs we are looking at a model with 2 CCWs which are special and 1 Pistol. Now we look at the combinations we have 2 Specials and it says if we have 2 specials we choose one and never get a +1 for extra weapons.

So a model with a pistol never gets an extra attack? Because if it isn't a CCW, you'll never get the bonus attack for multiple CCWs.

Kel Using a single close combat weapon does in deed give no bonus ... Using two does. While you have chosen to read those pages as having I can not agree with this interpretation.

So we're on page 8 and have come no closer to convincing one another. We still have rules for only dealing with one or two weapon (and three is not a subset of two).

We can continue this, we can agree to disagree, or we can vote ... what's it going to be?

Saiisil wrote:How about I throw a curve here, this particular argument is about a model that has 2 SCCW and 1 Pistol, Page 29 tells us that pistols counts as a close combat weapon but it doesn't say that it is a CCW.

the underlined is incorrect.

If something counts as something, then it is that thing for all intents and purposes.

So a Pistol Can be used as a CCW, so the model will in fact have 3 ccw's

rigeld2 wrote:So a model with a pistol never gets an extra attack? Because if it isn't a CCW, you'll never get the bonus attack for multiple CCWs.

Maybe I wasn't clear. The Pistol counts as a CCW but isn't actually a CCW so if you are counting actual CCWs that a model has which is what argument seems to be doing, in this case with Grotsnik he has 2 + pistol not 3 actual CCWs

Which is incorrect Sai, as I have noted above.

DeathReaper wrote:nkelsch, What rules allow a model with 3 or more weapons to fight?

The rules for two weapons, since two is a subset of three........................

Once again, this has boiled down to agree to disagree and pray that GW actually puts it in writing some day, instead of just the verbal guidance they (UK studio) once gave the US GT judges. If you want to know what that guidance was, well, read my posts........................

DR how is the underline incorrect? do you happen to know somewhere where it says a pistol is a CCW instead of counts as? if so show proof

Okay so if the two weapons rules covers it, we need to pick two weapons to use in cc since we need to fight with only two ccw's and use the rules for said weapon combination.

If you are not using a certain weapon combination why are you using its rules?

that is like firing a bolt pistol, then trying to launch an assault and being denied because you have a rapid fire weapon.


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Saiisil wrote:DR how is the underline incorrect? do you happen to know somewhere where it says a pistol is a CCW instead of counts as? if so show proof

Counts as = is that thing for all game purposes.

That is what counts as means.

Page reference? because every time I have seen something in the rules that says it counts as something else it either says or implies with the way it is written that it counts as for specific game effects, not that it "is that thing for all game purposes"

Saiisil wrote:Page reference? because every time I have seen something in the rules that says it counts as something else it either says or implies with the way it is written that it counts as for specific game effects, not that it "is that thing for all game purposes"

Stop asking for page references. It counts as something then it is that thing as much as it is its self. Next you'll be asking how to deploy your forces at the start of the game.

If you are going to try to argue something at least try to provide evidence, I always try to and I admit sometimes I am outright wrong but I at least provide the evidence that exists within the wording of the rules even if my interpretation is wrong. To say something means something without evidence is a baseless argument.

Edit: To further prove the on page 29 where it says that they counts as doesn't necessarily mean that they are page 37 under Number of attacks second bullet it lists CCW and Pistol separately.

If a pistol counts as a close combat weapon, then you can use a pistol in close combat as if it were a sword/mace/axe/any other normal close combat weapon.

See p.37 where is says (Typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) they make that distinction because a pistol can be used as a close combat weapon, but a close combat weapon can not be used as a pistol.

Yet it is saying that you can use the pistol as, not that the pistol is. That is the difference my post was meant to point out and since the pistol isn't an actual CCW then we don't need to worry about counting it when determining exactly how many CCWs a model is carrying.

But you do need to worry about counting it, because counts as acts in all ways as that thing it counts as. Using the pistol as a close combat weapon means the pistol is a close combat weapon, since it counts as one.

A pistol can be used in close combat as a close combat weapon, so we need to count it as a close combat weapon for that determination.

Not RAW, but looking at the model of Doc it appears the syringe is bolted on to the slugga, at least now we know how he wields 3 weapons anyway...