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DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Lets break down this sentence:
Q: What can you do?
A: Use 2 single-handed weapons that you are equipped with.
Q: How can you use them?
A: with the rules given below for different combinations.
Q: What are they?
A: 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with.

Which 2 Single-handed weapons that the model is equipped with if you have 3 or more? The rules really do not cover it. The only real way to handle it is to pick 2 weapons and look up the rules for the two you are using.

But it is clearly something that will only be settled with an FaQ.

One that they will rule that you gain the bonus attack if you are using two of the same special weapon, even if you have a power sword as well. (Like Calgar).

No, the only real way to handle it is to then look for any rule that allows for any choices: that rule is the 2 different Specials. The only time 2 different Specials rule breaks is with a DE Archon equipped with Husk Blade+Agonizer(or any combination of Special CCWS that they switch the Pistol and sword for)+Djinn blades Or a Haemonculous that chooses 2 SCCW for his Pistol +NCCW, and 1 or 2 arcane SCCWs.

When you have 3,4,9, or 10000 single-handed CCWS, you either still have the same possible rules(to be followed completely), or you have a situation outside of the rules and never gain any bonus attack(because the rules do not tell you that you do on page 42).

You are equipped with 2 Different Specials, therefore you follow the rules for being equipped with 2 different specials and never gain a bonus attack.

Also I have already stated I will not discuss Calgar; why do you keep bringing up Calgar?
But Fine I will make my remark on Calgar: Calgar has exactly 2 Special Close combat weapons(1 Power Sword, and 1 Gauntlets of Ultrimar), which are different; therefore he never receives the bonus as it stands.
I do however foresee the FAQ granting him the bonus attack from the gauntlets of Ultrimar as that 1 weapon is a Pair of Power fists(and GW likes to ignore the rules in the FAQs from time to time), the alternative is that they will incorporate the +1A into the rules for the Gauntlets(like NF-Falchions).

Simply being equipped with has no bearing, that is what you are not getting.

you have to be equipped with and use those weapons.

if you have 3 the only logical way to do it is to pick 2 weapons to use and reference the rules for that combination, since you can only fight with 2 single-handed CCW's.

No; being equipped with dictates manner of use: that is what the rules actually say and what you are not getting.


You are equipped with a set of weapons; here are the rules for using them in combination.

Only 1 Combination of weapons ever allow for a choice of use: 2 different Specials.

You cannot claim that the rules are for the Usage alone of the weapons because that leads to the following cyclical logic:

A model has a Power weapon and a poisoned weapon(only those 2 single-handed special close combat weapons); it is the assault phase and said model is engaged. We now see that he is fighting with 2 single handed weapons so goes to where it discusses that he is using 2 different special close combat weapons, that rule tells us that he must choose 1 weapon to use and never gains a 2 weapon bonus, so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon so the restriction for using 2 weapons is removed and he can gain a bonus attack, but then he will be using 2 different close combat weapons and therefore must follow the rules for using 2 different special close combat weapons, which tell him to choose to use only 1 weapon and never gains a 2 weapon bonus, so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon so the restriction for using 2 weapons is removed and he can gain a bonus attack, but then he will be using 2 different close combat weapons and therefore must follow the rules for using 2 different special close combat weapons, which tell him to choose to use only 1 weapon and never gains a 2 weapon bonus, so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon so the restriction for using 2 weapons is removed and he can gain a bonus attack, but then he will be using 2 different close combat weapons and therefore must follow the rules for using 2 different special close combat weapons, which tell him to choose to use only 1 weapon, and so on and so on and so on ad nauseum.

your cyclical logic is incorrect, I will point out why:

you said "so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon" he is still using (Wielding) both weapons, it is just that he has to pick one of the weapons to apply the bonuses and penalties to the attacks made this round.

Compared to a model having a Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, and Crozius Arcanum. This model has 3 sets of 2 weapons: the Bolt Pistol/Lightning Claw (Set 1), the Bolt Pistol/Crozius Arcanum (Set 2), and Lightning Claw/Crozius Arcanum(Set 3).

the most logical way to determine what we fight with, since we can only use 2 CCW's is to determine what set, 1, 2, or 3 we are using and look up the rules for the combination we are wielding.

Except you do not have permisson to make that choice before looking up. You cannot ever, ever, ever find that rule, no matter how many times we go through this rules query, because it doesnt exist.

DR, in that section GW seems to use, eqipped, useing, and weilding interchangeably. Bottom line to me, If you have, are equipped with, two different special weapons, you must choose one of them. And the act of choosing means you have to apply the rest of that rule, which says you never get the +1 attack for using two weapons. Really, it is that simple.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are equipped with 2 Different Specials, therefore you follow the rules for being equipped with 2 different specials and never gain a bonus attack.

Except that if you look to the rule book it also says: "Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are exception to this. Only a second PF, TH or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

Not sure exactly what the problem seems to be but I think it is pretty clear from the rules what you should do and I am with DeathReaper on this one

Also how do you explain the use of special weapons I can choose how many attacks I can put into each weapon?

Bacms wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
You are equipped with 2 Different Specials, therefore you follow the rules for being equipped with 2 different specials and never gain a bonus attack.

Except that if you look to the rule book it also says: "Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are exception to this. Only a second PF, TH or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

You're reading "A normal and a special weapon", what you should be reading is the heading below that, "Two different special weapons".

I know what I am reading but as far as I know Power fists, thunder hammers and lightning claws are special weapons and so you gain a bonus attack if you are equipped/using with two of the same type.

"Can" confer, not "will always" confer

Having a 3rd special weapon will still deny you the bonus attack

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Can" confer, not "will always" confer

Having a 3rd special weapon will still deny you the bonus attack

That is the thing I don't get as far as I read the rules it says "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" now from where I see what applies, in this case I say both the normal and a special weapon and the two different special weapons, nowhere I can see it says you have to choose one over the other. S why do you choose to "use" (RAW) the two special weapons and not one special and one normal. It does say you need to choose which weapons you are going to use that turn and it seems pretty clear you have two hands and you can use one weapon in each hand or a two handed weapons even if you carry more.

Where is the rule allowing you to choose which weapon you use?

The ONLY time you are allowed to choose WHICH special weapon you use is in the 2 special weapons section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Where is the rule allowing you to choose which weapon you use?

The ONLY time you are allowed to choose WHICH special weapon you use is in the 2 special weapons section.

Yes but basically because it is the only time it would matter right? So if I chose ONE doesn't it mean I can't use both at the same time but can use a different one which is available if I have three?

Huh?

No, my point is that you are only given permission to use WHICH special weapon you use through the "fighting with 2 special weapons" section

If you read any other section you have already made a choice - to not "use" a special weapon - when you have no rule allowing this to occur.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh?

No, my point is that you are only given permission to use WHICH special weapon you use through the "fighting with 2 special weapons" section

If you read any other section you have already made a choice - to not "use" a special weapon - when you have no rule allowing this to occur.

Again you are deliberating choosing to ignore the option to fight with one normal and one special. Both apply when you have three weapons right?

No, I am not ignoring it.

You have 3 weapons, 2 different special and one normal. Find a RULE allowing you to CHOOSE to use the normal and special

You will not be able to find it, meaning the only time you can choose a weapon to use is under 2 specials, meaning you never get the bonus attack

Essentially: you are trying to choose to use a combination of weapons but have no permission to choose that combination in the first place. The whole game is based on permission, which you lack.

I'm assuming the scorpion claw (may be used both as a power fist and shuriken catapult in the same turn) is a rule that deals with a previous edition than?

RAW: "Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close, with the rules given below for the DIFFERENT POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS"
If you have three weapons I can see three different combinations. But I see what you mean so I will stop arguing because otherwise I can also the "two different special weapons" only apply if you are equipped with two weapons so we have no rules for these cases. At least now I understand why we need a FAQ.
Thank you very much for the explanation.

Bruno

DeathReaper wrote:your cyclical logic is incorrect, I will point out why:

you said "so the choice is made for the power weapon, but now he is only using 1 weapon" he is still using (Wielding) both weapons, it is just that he has to pick one of the weapons to apply the bonuses and penalties to the attacks made this round.

Compared to a model having a Bolt Pistol, Lightning Claw, and Crozius Arcanum. This model has 3 sets of 2 weapons: the Bolt Pistol/Lightning Claw (Set 1), the Bolt Pistol/Crozius Arcanum (Set 2), and Lightning Claw/Crozius Arcanum(Set 3).

the most logical way to determine what we fight with, since we can only use 2 CCW's is to determine what set, 1, 2, or 3 we are using and look up the rules for the combination we are wielding.

My point in the cyclical logic is that you are declaring the combinations as the Combinations for Use, and not Equipped; is you are using 2 different and that rule for Using 2 different then says to choose to use 1 then you are no longer Using 2 different, you are Using 1.

You must read it as: "If you are equipped with 2 different, you must Choose to use 1"; which is what the first paragraph in the rules says to begin with: You are Equipped with weapons, here are the combinations of use.

Bacms: Model A is equipped with a Normal and a Special, Model B is equipped with 2 Normals, model c is equipped with 2 of the same special, Model D is equipped with 2 different Specials.
Look every model above has a "DIFFERENT POSSIBLE COMBINATION"
And yes, if you have a model with 3 weapons you do have different Possible Combinations, so you look at what weapons the model has and then determine what rules you use based therein, Here is how that works:

Model A has a Bolt Pistol, Close combat weapon and a Power Sword. His possible Combinations are: 2 normals, or 2 sets of a normal and a Special. We have no rules that dictate choice of use so we read the entries. Both provide a bonus attack. A normal and a special states all attacks are made with the Special(power sword), therefore Model A will always use a Power sword.

Model B has a Bolt Pistol, Close combat weapon and a Power Fist. His possible Combinations are: 2 normals, or 2 sets of a normal and a Special. We have no rules that dictate choice of use so we read the entries. Only 2 normals provide a bonus attack, the Power fist denies the bonus attack. A normal and a special states all attacks are made with the Specail(power fist), therefore Model A will always use a Power sword.

Model C has a Pair of lightning claws and a Thunder hammer. His possible combinations are: 2 of the same Speial and 2 sets of 2 different Specials. We have a rule that dictates choice of Use: the 2 different Specials. Therefore as we only have 1 rule for the equipped weapons combinations that dictates choice we follow it's rules: you only use 1 weapon, ad never gain a bonus attack.\

Happyjew: The Shuriken Catapult is a ranged weapon, so has no bearing on the Power fist attacks. Also as an assault weapon you can always fire it in the shooting phase then assault with your CCWS in the assault phase(this is exactly how pistols work: shoot them in the SHooting and bash with them in the assault, usually to add a bonus attack as the second CCW)

Like I said, I'm assuming that the wording has to do with a rule from an older edition, but I wasn't sure and trying to find out.

Just a reminder as GW so often likes to add.

There are only 2 instances of Ranged/CCweapons not being able to be used as both that I can think of since I started playing in 3rd:

Burnas, which specify they are only ever CCWs if they did not fire in the previous shooting phase.

and

Bolters on models with true-grit in 3rd: back then you could shoot with rapid fire weapons(1 shot) and then assault and true-grit made the Bolter a Pistol for CC, providing you did not shoot the bolter before assaulting.

Right this is getting silly

Tri wrote:There are three reading, one i agree with and one i don't ... but here they are with the reasons why and why not ... Make your own mind up ... or don't but this is what this thread amounts to.

1) If you have 3+ close combat weapons and 2 are different special weapons then as per fighting with two different special weapons you never get the bonus attack.
(why not?) because you are not using two weapons, you are using all of them. So how can you read a subsection of a rule that requires two weapons?

2) If you have 3+ close combat weapons you must pick two or you can select no of the options on page 42 (as there are only rules for fighting with 1 or 2 weapons). Pick those weapons you wish to use and look up the effect.
(Why not?) because you are wielding (meaning having) two different special weapons so you can never get the bonus attack for wielding two weapons.

and (not that any one ever bothers with this ... but i do want to cover all the bases)
3) There are no rules for a model with 3+ weapons so such models can never use any of the rules on page 42 and attacks without any bonuses.
(why not?) because no one in there right mind would think that a model with a weapon wouldn't use it just because they had too many.

Whichever way you go know that there are no rule backing you 100% any one saying so is lying. This isn't magic ... we do not have a complete rule set

edits so it looks good

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Model C has a Pair of lightning claws and a Thunder hammer. His possible combinations are: 2 of the same Speial and 2 sets of 2 different Specials. We have a rule that dictates choice of Use: the 2 different Specials. Therefore as we only have 1 rule for the equipped weapons combinations that dictates choice we follow it's rules: you only use 1 weapon, ad never gain a bonus attack.

This is not correct.

We know we can only use 2 weapons in CC. (P.37)

Which two weapons needs to be decided if we are equipped with 3 or more weapons.

In the above situation if you use the 2 LC's you get the bonus attack because the Thunderhammer is not being used, and can not be used if you are using the 2 LC's, even though it is equipped.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Model C has a Pair of lightning claws and a Thunder hammer. His possible combinations are: 2 of the same Speial and 2 sets of 2 different Specials. We have a rule that dictates choice of Use: the 2 different Specials. Therefore as we only have 1 rule for the equipped weapons combinations that dictates choice we follow it's rules: you only use 1 weapon, ad never gain a bonus attack.

This is not correct.

We know we can only use 2 weapons in CC. (P.37)

Which two weapons needs to be decided if we are equipped with 3 or more weapons.

In the above situation if you use the 2 LC's you get the bonus attack because the Thunderhammer is not being used, and can not be used if you are using the 2 LC's, even though it is equipped.

This is incorrect We know we can only use 1 weapon in close combat when we are equipped with 2 different specials.

Also you will note that that entire section you posted from was discussing equipped with and which weapon/weapons get used; not using all three(and if you were to actually read the quote that exact situation is what i am talking about in it; the model is equipped with 3 weapons, 1 weapon must be chosen for use because 1 rule for combinations of weapons allows for choice out of the 2 different combinations of 2 weapons that are available based on equipment). In this situation the only rule that allows you any choice of weapon is 2 different Specials, and it specifically denies 2-weapon bonus, if you choose to use the 1 lightning claw(of the pair), you cannot gain a bonus, if you choose to use the Thunder hammer, you cannot gain a bonus.

Your failure to understand the entire section of my last post; and instead trying to shoe-horn in the exact same thing you are advocating out of being equipped with 3+ single handed close combat weapons kind of speaks volumes to you not understanding how the "fighint with 2 single handed close combat weapons" section of page 42.

Also Page 37 does not say that you cannot use more than 2 weapons, it says you gain no additional benefit; that is not the same as not using more than 2.

Not when we are simply equipped with 2 specials, they have to be wielding 2 specials to have to chose one weapon's bonuses and penalties.

they are still using 2 SCCW's since the rest of the text says "But they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons"

so they never get the bonus attack for using "Two different special weapons"

They are still wielding 2 different SCCW's

What happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

The Relic Blade is 2 handed.

Again your reading fails.

They can never use 2 different specials; it simply cannot be done as you choose 1 Special weapon to use.

You only have 1 combination of equipped weapons that ever allows any choice in which weapon to be used; that same combination rule that allows a choice denies the bonus no matter which weapon(again singular) is used.

What happens when a SM Honour guard takes a relic blade?
Simple, they may as well use it since they have 3 Single handed Close combat weapons, 2 are different special and the Relic blade itself also denies the bonus attack.

You are claiming the Relic blade to be 2-handed, but it is not, it is a power weapon that has a set Strength for attacks(this is a case of the weapon having it's own Strength, and not adding to the S characteristic of the model equipped, unlike frost blades and Powerfists) and specifically denies the bonus attack itself when used.

The relic Blade is not 2 handed, it is single-handed.

Look no ones bring anything new to this ... you ether believe that you don't get a bonus attack for wield 2 different special weapons or you believe you must pick two weapons to use and check the list and get what ever you've chosen.

Once and for all we do not have rules for what to do with three weapons. We also have rules for riffle butts as two handed weapons ... which begs the question can you select a riffle butt over a powerfist (which has also been debated).

Kommissar Kel wrote:Again your reading fails.

They can never use 2 different specials; it simply cannot be done as you choose 1 Special weapon to use.

Actually, if you read the section: 2 different SCCW's you will see that they are in fact using/wielding both weapons (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons).

Kommissar Kel wrote:You only have 1 combination of equipped weapons that ever allows any choice in which weapon to be used; that same combination rule that allows a choice denies the bonus no matter which weapon(again singular) is used.

Remember its not just equipped, its equipped and using. "Some models are equipped with two-single handed weapons they can use in close combat."
That says they can use two-single handed weapons in close combat (That establishes that they can, and do, use 2 weapons in CC, and it lists the different combinations below). So you are in fact using two SCCW's even though you are only getting the bonuses of one of them.

Kommissar Kel wrote:What happens when a SM Honour guard takes a relic blade?
Simple, they may as well use it since they have 3 Single handed Close combat weapons, 2 are different special and the Relic blade itself also denies the bonus attack.

Not so simple, the relic blade denies the bonus attack if you use the relic blade to attack with.

If you use the power weapon and bolt pistol you will gain the extra attack as normal.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are claiming the Relic blade to be 2-handed, but it is not, it is a power weapon that has a set Strength for attacks(this is a case of the weapon having it's own Strength, and not adding to the S characteristic of the model equipped, unlike frost blades and Powerfists) and specifically denies the bonus attack itself when used.

The relic Blade is not 2 handed, it is single-handed.

The relic blade is most definitely 2 handed. P.99 SM codex, read the entry again. "Relic Blades are two-handed swords or axes..."

Bacms wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Huh?

No, my point is that you are only given permission to use WHICH special weapon you use through the "fighting with 2 special weapons" section

If you read any other section you have already made a choice - to not "use" a special weapon - when you have no rule allowing this to occur.

Again you are deliberating choosing to ignore the option to fight with one normal and one special. Both apply when you have three weapons right?

No, they don't You have one rule allowing it and one rule disallowing it. Guess which one wins. The one that says NEVER. Just like a deep striking unit with Fleet that deep strikes in and then runs in the shooting phase. it has one rule (Fleet) that says it can assault after running. But it has another rule that says it cannot assault after DSing. Which one wins. That's right, no assault. So here we have one rule that says you can have +1 attack if you have a specail and regular close combat (other than the excepted weapons) and another rule that says if you have two DIFFERENT special weapons then you NEVER get +1 attack. OK, which one wins. that's right. Never.

And then you add in that the only way to get to 'using' a special and a regular ccw when equipped with two special and a ccw is to CHOOSE one of the specials to use, and that is only allowed under the two different special weapons rule, well, all i can come up with is no +1 attack. Or are you saying taht we only use part of the rule (the choosing part) and ignore the restrictions that the act of choosing places upon us? Man, I've got a lot of rules I'd like to do that with................

don_mondo wrote:No, they don't You have one rule allowing it and one rule disallowing it. Guess which one wins.

... Yes except that rule is part of another rule that requires the model to be using Two weapons ... Look we've been over this ether the model can pick two weapon and then look at the list none of the rules on that page can be used. The model has more then three weapon and there are only rules for a model using two.