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Beatonator wrote:I might be wrong, but if both people agree on this before they begin the game and the rule applies to all units on the board that are in the same situation, is this a problem? Likewise if both players agree not to allow it.

This is the best way to handle any model with 3+ weapons with at least 2 different specials until we get an FAQ; but both sides of the discussion have the tools to make an argument given by this thread, and the 100+ other threads on this topic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use"

They use "use" and "wield" interchangeably, but not "equipped with"

Do you really think that a relic blade is not a two handed weapon?

It is explicitly described as such. If GW got around to FaQing it, they would clearly state that it is, in fact, a two handed weapon.

Why can you not accept this?

I'm confused, what does a relic blade being a 2-handed weapon or not have to do with the OP's question?

DR - in fluff it is stated to be a sword handed sword

In actual RULES it is stated to be a power weapon (therefore 1 handed) which because of its SIZE and WEIGHT means you never gain the bonus for 2 ccw; that entire section would be superfluous if what you claim to be rules were actually rules.

Good job they arent, then. In 2 RULES it is 1 handed. Thats it.

Can you please admit that you need to make up rules? I have done. Any time you feel like it.

I am having trouble finding the rule which says you may only ever choose to attack with 2 weapons and that you may choose to avoid using SCCW if you have 3+ weapons.

Those rules don't exist.

I do see rules that show what happens if you have regular CCW, 1 SCCW and 1 CCW and 2 SCCW.

Set 1: 0-1000 regular CCWs.
Set 2: 1 SCCW and 1-1000 CCWs.
Set 3: 2-1000 SCCW and 0-1000 CCWs

Every combination of weapons falls into one of those 3 categories. Nothing says you are limited to 2 weapons and you may choose those two weapons before resolving attacks.

Having 2 SCCW and 1 CCW weapon falls under the 3rd category because you have 2 SCCW. Having 3SCCW still means you have 2SCCW regardless of having any number of regular CCW.

I also can't find this 'rifle butt' being listen in any codex as a CCW. All I see is rules being made up.

If you have a character with 2SCCW you may never benefit from additional CCWs such is the penalty described in the rules. Nothing exempts you for having 3 weapons.

nkelsch, the rules for using rifle butts are an example on the weapons page.

There is no rule that force a model to use everything ... so If i pick a combination that gives me an extra attack ... that's what I'm getting.
...and really Nos it doesn't matter if you think you are right ... or if I think I'm right ... no rules and a disagreement means we dice off, agree, or don't play.

So, you still cant agree that there are no rules allowing you to do what you keep on insisting you can do?

Sheesh. Are you a politician?

I've already given EXACTLY how I would play earlier in this thread, although I guess you missed it.

Tri wrote:nkelsch, the rules for using rifle butts are an example on the weapons page.

Show me the model who has a 'rifle butt' as a weapon on his profile and then the weapon description in the codex that say 'rifle butt' is a CCW' and I will believe you. Until then, what is in the rulebook is an abstraction. Technically 'shoota boyz' have no CC weapons on their profile but are obviously allowed to attack in CC because there is an assumption a model with 0 CCWs may attack. It does not give him a CC weapon which he can then combine withother weapons.

There is no rule that force a model to use everything ... so If i pick a combination that gives me an extra attack ... that's what I'm getting.
...and really Nos it doesn't matter if you think you are right ... or if I think I'm right ... no rules and a disagreement means we dice off, agree, or don't play.

There is no rule allowing you to 'choose two'. The rules are permissive. Every combination can fit into one of the 3 categories. You are making up rules... Nothing allows you to choose two and ignore the penalties for having two SCCW. If you have 2 SCCWs then you can never get a bonus attack ever. That is a rule and is in the rule book. If you make up a rule and want to dice off, then I am making up rules all my boyz have STR 10 and 2D6 penetration on tanks. It is not written anywhere but you can't say it is not a rule and if we dice off and I win, it is legal.

A model with 2SCCW and 1 CCW or 3 SCCW still has 2 different SCCW and never gains a bonus attack.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - in fluff it is stated to be a two handed sword.

That is not fluff, that is in the rules section for Relic Blades and it says they are two handed.

Relic blades are two-handed(Rules) swords or axes sheathed in an armor-sundering power field...<Snip>...to wield a relic blade.(Fluff) A relic blade counts as a power weapon.(Rules) whose hits are resolved at Strength 6.(Rules) Due to its size and weight,(Fluff) a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon.(Rules)

Notice how you have to be wielding the relic blade to be denied the attack.

Happyjew wrote:I'm confused, what does a relic blade being a 2-handed weapon or not have to do with the OP's question?

We are trying to determine how to deal with a model with 3 or more weapons.

Thus the question:

what happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade(which I have shown to be 2 handed).

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

nkelsch wrote:Nothing allows you to choose two and ignore the penalties for having two SCCW.

There are no penalties for having two SCCW, there are penalties for using/wielding two SCCW.

DR - seriously, youre still trying this?

1st paragraph: ENTIRELY FLUFF
2nd paragraph: ENTIRELY RULES

Notice how it is the SIZE and WEIGHT that denies you the additional attack? Notice that in the RULES section it isnt described as 2 handed, which would make it ENTIRELY unnecessary to mention that you dont get a bonus attack? Any potential for you to actually acknowledge you've made a mistake, ever?

Sigh.

So, ready to admit you need to make up rules yet? Possibly? Maybe?

DeathReaper wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Nothing allows you to choose two and ignore the penalties for having two SCCW.

There are no penalties for having two SCCW, there are penalties for using/wielding two SCCW.

You are making up rules. There is no distinction and nothing that says you may only 'use/wield' 2 CCW at a time and to choose two before attacking.

If you have 2 different SCCW for any reason, the rules say you may never gain a bonus attack. You never have the option to combine each SCCW with a third normal CCW for a bonus attack. The rules are permissive and no rules exist which allow this to happen.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - seriously, youre still trying this?

1st paragraph: ENTIRELY FLUFF
2nd paragraph: ENTIRELY RULES

Notice how it is the SIZE and WEIGHT that denies you the additional attack? Notice that in the RULES section it isnt described as 2 handed, which would make it ENTIRELY unnecessary to mention that you dont get a bonus attack? Any potential for you to actually acknowledge you've made a mistake, ever?

Sigh.

So, ready to admit you need to make up rules yet? Possibly? Maybe?

It is listed as a two handed weapon, how is that making up rules?

The rules for Relic blades are on page 99 of the SM codex. there are some fluff parts there as I have shown, but mentioning that relic blades are two handed is not a part of the fluff. it is actually telling us that relic blades are two handed. I am not sure how you are missing that.

nkelsch wrote:You are making up rules. There is no distinction and nothing that says you may only 'use/wield' 2 CCW at a time and to choose two before attacking. If you have 2 different SCCW for any reason, the rules say you may never gain a bonus attack.

If you have 2 different SCCW that you are wielding (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)
There are actually rules that say you only use 2 CCW's, as detailed on Page 42 'Fighting with 2 single-handed weapons" section.

Youre making up rules about being able to choose a subset of weapons before hitting p42. Same as you have been in every thread

It isnt listed as a 2 handed weapon in the rules text. You know, the second paragraph where it actually lists the rules. The bit where it ISNT a 2 handed weapon - it IS in fact a one handed weapon, as it is a power weapon.

The second paragraph is mostly rules, but there is a bit of fluff there as well.

The whole section details the Relic Blade rules.

We know we only use two weapons in CC.

If we have three or more we must chose only two weapons, since it tells us we can only fight with two weapons, to actually fight with.

Actually the first section is entirely fluff. We know it is a one handed weapon as it is a power weapon.

BZZZT, rules needed.

Please provide them

Or, you know, admit you are having to make up an allowance. I freely admit you need to make up rules - its just mine also happen to follow the extreme hint given in the BRB about models with 2 different SCCW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually the first section is entirely fluff.

And you know this how?

The first section has rules detailing that the relic blade is a 2H, then gives some fluff.

The second has mostly rules, with a bit of fluff thrown in as well.

I gave the rules quote, I can not help it if you choose to ignore it.

No, it has a fluff description of a sword / axe taking two hands.

It then gives you the real rules, which is that it is a power weapon. This makes it one handed

So, going to admit you need to make up rules in order to choose which 2 weapons? At any point?

Not making up any rules, it clearly states in the Relic blade rules, that they are two handed, I am not sure why you think that is fluff.

Because of the whole sentence, mainly.

Done arguing with you, as you cant even admit when you're making rules up - you have no rule allowing you to choose which 2. Nothing. Admit it or stop posting.

It does not explicitly state you need to pick two weapons to fight with. But taht it because it is a permissive ruleset.

They tell us we can only fight with 2 weapons if we are equipped with 2 weapons.

That restriction says out of all our weapons, we must choose two, to fight with.

Say where it allows you to pick two weapons, please

For once, provide this rule. No "implies" this, no "we have to do..." that, just he actual rule that allows you to choose a subset of your weapons before you hit page 42

Anything.

Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.

That gives us the restriction of fighting with only two single-handed weapons.

We know from that, we can not fight with more than single-handed weapons.

So if we have more than two we have to chose single-handed weapons to fulfill one of the different possible combinations.

we are only allowed to wield two single-handed weapons, as per P.42

So regarding Relic Blades (and this really needs a new thread) you have a ccw (Pistol), SCCW (Power Weapon) ans SCCW (Relic Blade). 2 SCCW, no bonus attack. Can we PLEASE get back to the OPs original question?

Edit: NM about the new thread bit, I just found it.

"Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.
"

Erm, sorry, where is the rule I asked for? You have made a bald statement with no rules backing.

Try again. Actual rule this time - something like "if you have more than 2 CCW, please choose whichever 2 you feel like" - that would be good. Anything like that?

DeathReaper wrote:Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.

That gives us the restriction of fighting with only two single-handed weapons.

We know from that, we can not fight with more than single-handed weapons.

So if we have more than two we have to chose single-handed weapons to fulfill one of the different possible combinations.

we are only allowed to wield two single-handed weapons, as per P.42

Or you could just, you know, follow the rules and realize that 2 special close combat weapons is a subset of (2+ (different) SCCW) and that you're as such prevented from EVER getting the additional attack?

For example: You have a Black Templars Chaplain with a Crozius, a bolt pistol and a thunder hammer. When it his turn to attack, you check the rules for attacking and realize that you have at least two special close combat weapons, and as such have to follow the rules for fighting with 2 different special close combat weapons as laid out in the rulebook. Note that there's nothing in the rules whatsoever about you being allowed to choose to ignore the fact that you have at least 2 different SCCWs, which is what nos has been wanting you to acknowledge.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Page 42. Under fighting with 2 single-handed weapons.

That is what allows you to chose two, and only two single-handed weapons to wield.

That gives us the restriction of fighting with only two single-handed weapons.

We know from that, we can not fight with more than single-handed weapons.

So if we have more than two we have to chose single-handed weapons to fulfill one of the different possible combinations.

we are only allowed to wield two single-handed weapons, as per P.42

Or you could just, you know, follow the rules and realize that 2 special close combat weapons is a subset of (2+ (different) SCCW) and that you're as such prevented from EVER getting the additional attack?

For example: You have a Black Templars Chaplain with a Crozius, a bolt pistol and a thunder hammer. When it his turn to attack, you check the rules for attacking and realize that you have at least two special close combat weapons, and as such have to follow the rules for fighting with 2 different special close combat weapons as laid out in the rulebook. Note that there's nothing in the rules whatsoever about you being allowed to choose to ignore the fact that you have at least 2 different SCCWs, which is what nos has been wanting you to acknowledge.

????

Main rule
"Fighting with 2 single handed CCW" Models can use 2 single handed weapons in close combat check the list

Sub rules
"2 Normal CCW" +1attack
"special + Normal CCW" + 1 attack and weapon effects
"2 Matching Special CCW" + 1 attack and weapon effects
"2 Different Special CCW" + pick a weapon effect no bonus attack

So unless you model is some how fighting with 2 different special weapons then that is the only time it comes up.

As Nos has said there isn't an option to pick weapons before combat ... but being fair there also aren't rules for picking shooting weapons ether ... the model is given the option not to shoot but not to pick a weapons to shoot. Since I've never been asked to show a rule allowing me to choose what gun my model fires why must I find a rule that shows i can pick what I uses to bash the other guys brains in.

"can fire a single weapon" - theres the allowance to choose.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"can fire a single weapon" - theres the allowance to choose.

can use two single close combat weapons ... glad we agree

.....which doesnt get you around the NEVER, as you still have 2 different special CCW

It also doesnt get you around choosing WHICH 2. It specifies you are armed with 2, not 3

If the model's weilding two different special weapon then no you can't but since a model must be using two weapons (you've already said permission is given to choose them), so if model has three + weapons they must pick two BEFORE looking at the list. When looking at the list you ignore any reference that does not match the weapons that you are Using/wielding.