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The way I see it, Grotsnik has a slugga, 'urty syringe and a power klaw.
At the start of each combat, before any blows are struck, Grotsnik must choose between one of his SCCW to use. These are either the klaw or the syringe.

If he uses the 'urty syringe, he is fighting with a 'urty syringe and a slugga. This is a poisoned weapon and a CCW. Fighting with a CCW and a poisoned weapon gives you +1 A.

If he picks the klaw, then he fights with the Klaw and slugga. You never get an additional attack with a Klaw, unless you have two klaws.

Same deal with Calgar. He either uses the 2 fists or the sword. 2 fists for +1 A at I 1 S 8 or the sword to aattack at his usual I S 4

Except, as has been pointed out, you have no rule allowing you to make that choice.

The ONLY place you get to choose which special CCW you are using also states you NEVER get the attack

I also don't see any rule disallowing it either. The only rules I see are you never get the benefits of 2 SCCW at the same time, power fists only get +1 A if they're wielding 2 powerfists (Calgar) and special weapons such as poisoned, power and force weapons can claim +1 A when being wielded with a normal CCW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except, as has been pointed out, you have no rule allowing you to make that choice.

The ONLY place you get to choose which special CCW you are using also states you NEVER get the attack

That only applies if you are wielding two of the same special weapon. you never get the bonus attack for using/wielding 2 SCCW's

we have to look at it logically because they do not tell us how a model with 3 or more weapons behaves in Close Combat.

So Logically we can discern that a model only uses up to 2 weapons in CC as per the section about fighting with 2 single-handed weapons, and the section that says more that two weapons give no additional benefit.

So either a model with 3 or more weapons can not attack, or we have to chose 2 weapons to fight with and look up the rules for the weapon combination we are using.

It is that simple.

Or, you take view that the only place where you get to choose which SCCW you are using also tells you that you NEVER gain the bonus attack

That works fine for models equipped with and using 2 SCCW's, But there are no rules for models with 3 or more weapons.

So either:

those models can not attack.
Or
We have to chose a combination of weapons it wield in CC and use the rules for what we are wielding.

OR

You go to the 2 different CCW section and read that for any number of CCW

See, your false dichotomy is false!

Since youre making up rules anyway, making one where you a) gain the least advantage and b) follow the NEVER and c) follow the spirit makes the most sense, no?

Making up rules?

It establishes we can only use 2 weapons in CC.

If we have 3 or more, we have no choice but to chose a combination of weapons it wield in CC and use the rules for what we are wielding.

Since "Some models are equipped with two-single handed weapons they can use in close combat." we have to be equipped with and using the weapons in CC, this establishes that, then we look up what combo we are using.

....and that is the part you are making up

there are no rules allowing you to choose a combination PRIOR to reading p42. None. Absolutely nothing whatsoever

So, as pointed out - your false dichotomy is false.

It is implied, since we can not fight with more than 2 CCW's, we must have to choose 2 out of the 3 or more to fight with, since we can only fight with 2 Single-handed weapons.

What happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

The Relic Blade is 2 handed.

You've been corrected on this more than once, the relic blade is NOT 2 handed. Read again.

"Implied" == "there are no rules covering this" - understand now?

"Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes..." P.99 SM Codex.

They are in fact 2 handed.

Now what happens when a SM honor guard squad model buys a Relic blade?

The model will now have a Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Relic Blade.

How do we determine what weapons he uses in CC?

So, fluff is rules now?

P99 states, in the rules, that they are a power weapon and you cannot gain the bonus for 2CCW. Try again.
How do you determine? You use the making up rules that requires the least advantage as possible, which is the 2 different special CCW of never gaining an additional attack.

Or, your way, which also has no basis in the rules (just an "implied" one, so that would still be none) and gains an advantage heavily indicated you should NEVER get.

Given you will never accept you are making up rules, whats the point in you posting.

You

Are

Making

Up

Rules

That quote is listed under the Relic Blade entry. It clearly details that relic blades are two handed.
that quote is from the rules for relic blades.

I am not making up rules. they tell us we are only allowed to fight with 2 CCW's

one has to then pick 2 out of the 3 or more weapons one has, to follow the rules. This is the only way to do it, since you are not allowed to fight with more than 2 CCW's

Lets go with something else then, since you will not answer my question.

How do we determine what weapons to use in CC for a Plague marine?

he has:
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat weapon, Bolter (2 handed rifle butt)

DeathReaper wrote:
Bolt Pistol, Close Combat weapon, Bolter (2 handed rifle butt)

Bolters are not CC weapons. That is an abstraction to describe how models with no CC weapons attack at all. Wearing gloves and boots does not mean you are equipped with 4 CCWs either.

If you have 2+ SpecialCCWs at any time, then you lose all ability to ever gain a bonus attack regardless which weapons you use (even if you could prove there are rules for having 3+ CCW which there are not)

A model with 2+ SpecialCCW always has 2 Special CCWs so that section of rules is always applicable, no bonus attack ever even if he has 7 regular CCWs.

A rifle butt is a close combat weapon.

It is even listed as an example of a two-handed close combat weapon on page 42. (Such as a rifle's butt)

nkelsch wrote:A model with 2+ SpecialCCW always has 2 Special CCWs so that section of rules is always applicable, no bonus attack ever even if he has 7 regular CCWs.

It always applies if they are wielding 'two different close combat weapons' remember (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

DeathReaper wrote:A rifle butt is a close combat weapon.

It is even listed as an example of a two-handed close combat weapon on page 42. (Such as a rifle's butt)

nkelsch wrote:A model with 2+ SpecialCCW always has 2 Special CCWs so that section of rules is always applicable, no bonus attack ever even if he has 7 regular CCWs.

It always applies if they are wielding 'two different close combat weapons' remember (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.)

No it doesn't... It is an abstraction and the model gains no bonus. You do not have 'rifle butt' on the wargear profile and bolters are not classified as a CCW simply because you believe it is probably a rifle butt.

Nothing is a CCW unless it is an explicit piece of wargear saying it is. If you have no weapons at all, like a shoota boy who only has a shoota, it is assumed he is capable of attacking even though he is not explicitly equipped with a CCW.

DR - no, it really isnt a rifle butt. Please, show me how a gryojet stabilised rocket is a "rifle", PLEASE. Bolter /= Rifle Butt.

That bit you quoted from p99 is fluff. Surely you know that, right? If it REALLY were ACTUAL rules, then the following would be superfluous - right?

the actual rules from p99 Codex SM wrote:Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon

Gee, I guess its the SIZE and WEIGHT that means you cannot gain a bonus attack - nothing else. See, the actual RULE says so! There is also the fact that a Relic Blade is defined as a power weapon, and we know that power weapons are single handed - rulebook FAQ. So, thats 2 reasons you're wrong. I'd stop if I were you....

I answered your question - you determine it the same way, you make rules up. So, you make rules up that follow the least advantageous route
Since you wont admit YOUR direction requires making up rules, and you apparently never will - why do you bother?

nosferatu1001 wrote: So, you make rules up that follow the least advantageous route

... Yet it is advantageous to the other play when these characters were made as you clearly said it didn't matter they would get the bonus attack any way. It is only under 5th rules that problems come up ... not because the rule are against them merely they are not covered.

If you use the rules on page 41-42 and assume you can pick a sub set to use then it all works, as intended.

"as intended"
Prove it.

Quite a lot of things changed, deliberately so, between 4th and 5th. Do you have proof that they intended Calgar to have the bonus attack? Or, as posited, they just gave him the weapons the model actually shows?

nosferatu1001 wrote:"as intended"
Prove it.

Quite a lot of things changed, deliberately so, between 4th and 5th. Do you have proof that they intended Calgar to have the bonus attack? Or, as posited, they just gave him the weapons the model actually shows?

Yes a lot of things did change ... however absence is not a change. At most it is an oversight. He has two power-fist's he gets an extra attack if he uses them if he chooses to use the sword he cannot get an extra attack as he has no wargear that he can combine it with to gain an extra attack. In fact the only change is that ... you cannot use different special weapons as an extra weapon.

Absence can be a change. As in, they omitted the last man standing rules - is that not a change? They decided that having 2 different special weapons means you NEVER gain the 2 CCW bonus.

You still have to make up rules (you are allowed to choose a combination of weapons BEFORE you read page 42), and your method results in an advantage that is *strongly* hinted you should NEVER gain.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Absence can be a change. As in, they omitted the last man standing rules - is that not a change? They decided that having 2 different special weapons means you NEVER gain the 2 CCW bonus.

You still have to make up rules (you are allowed to choose a combination of weapons BEFORE you read page 42), and your method results in an advantage that is *strongly* hinted you should NEVER gain.

I see no hints i only see that you cannot get a bonus attack if you use a none match pair of special weapons.

So, by omission, you do agree that an omission is also a change, yes? I assume as much - if you dont agree, then acknowledge and respond.

"such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons"

The "NEVER" is a strong hint, no? As is the fluff explanation to go with it.

Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use"

Edit: can you also finally admit you must make up rules in order to do what you propose? Be adult about this, and admit that both positions require us to make up rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, by omission, you do agree that an omission is also a change, yes? I assume as much - if you dont agree, then acknowledge and respond.

"such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons"

The "NEVER" is a strong hint, no? As is the fluff explanation to go with it.

Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use"

Edit: can you also finally admit you must make up rules in order to do what you propose? Be adult about this, and admit that both positions require us to make up rules

If a model is using two different special weapons it never gets a bonus attack for using two weapons =/= a model carrying two different special weapons. The rules ask you to look up two weapons that you are using ... If you disagree then what happens to a model with 2 power weapons and a close combat weapon? does this mode gain 2 bonus attack because it fulfills two of the options? This is what you are saying.

"Throughout this whole page they use "use", "wield" and "equipped with" interchangeably, so you cannot cling to "wield" as solely being "use""

Can you please, for once, admit that you are making up rules?

If not - please show me the RULE allowing you to pick your combination. Not playing aany mroe silly hypotheticals with you until you do exactly that. Neither you nor DR have had the guts to admit that you need to make rules up, and continuing to ignore this point and presumably trying to claim some "high ground" because of it just wont fly any longer.

I thought Calgar had 2 SCCW: a power sword and the gauntlets. Or do the gauntlets count as 2 CCW?

Happyjew wrote:I thought Calgar had 2 SCCW: a power sword and the gauntlets. Or do the gauntlets count as 2 CCW?

The Gauntlets are a "pair of power fists", which is what's messing up stuff.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Happyjew wrote:I thought Calgar had 2 SCCW: a power sword and the gauntlets. Or do the gauntlets count as 2 CCW?

The Gauntlets are a "pair of power fists", which is what's messing up stuff.

Calgar only has 2 Special CCW; which Happyjew is correct about.

And yes, walrus, you are correct that the Gauntlets are a "pair of powerfists", as their single weapon; this is why I stated earlier that if GW ever decided to actually do an FAQ on Calgar I could see them ruling that Calgar gets the bonus attack when he uses the 1 special weapon "Gauntlets of Ultramar", which would neither prove, nor disprove the 3 weapon issue(since Calgar only actually has 2 weapons, it is just that 1 weapons is a pair or power fists, much like the hurricane bolter is 3 twin-linked boltguns, but is 1 weapon).

With Calgar it really is a "flip a coin/roll off pre-game" situation; while Eldrad is an "Argue until someone decides "screw it, lets Flip a Coin/roll off"" situation(Eldrad actually having 3 weapons and 2 of them are different specials).

TBH, Im not a rule buff. But the underlying issue with Grotsnik the way I see it is...

He cant sue 2 different special weapons, fair enough. So he uses the only other gear available to him. Normal + Special.

I might be wrong, but if both people agree on this before they begin the game and the rule applies to all units on the board that are in the same situation, is this a problem? Likewise if both players agree not to allow it.

I don't have to fire all 3 weapons on my vehicle, I can choose which ones to fire.
When I am only allowed to use one weapon on a vehicle which has more... I have to choose which weapon to fire.

Unless im mistaken in which case I apologies, but the important thing is your opponent agrees with you on the rule before the game. What's GW stance of this at any official tournaments/local game shops? Would be interested to know.