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Kommissar Kel wrote:no you are given permission to use your equipped weapons in the combinations given; this means that all equipped weapons are to be used, but we must find the most relevant rules in the combinations to determine what weapons rules get used and what if any bonus is granted.

Interesting but flawed since that only gives the choice to pick between two where as a model like calgar has three. Now you are giver permision to use two weapons so you must pick two to use those rules and if for some reason you still are using two different special weapons you must again pick which to use.

Still lets keep reading ...

To do this we then take the Equipped weapons and begin looking at the combinations; we have no choice in the matter(excepting the very most specific combination, which very specifically allows a choice) we must use the most specific combination set rules.

Nope you are not told to look at every combination just the combination that you are using

Take for example a SM Assault Marine sgt; said sgt purchases a pair of Lightning in exchange for his CCW(Legal option), keeping his Bolt pistol; now it comes time for close combat; the Sgt's Player looks at his equipped weapons: 2 Lightning Claws, and a normal CCW(the Bolt pistol), so he looks at the relevant combinations and there rules: Special and a Normal & 2 of the Same Specials. He sees that with Special and a Normal he would not gain a bonus attack because the Special is one of the specials that require a second of the Same, He also sees that all attacks use the Specials rules. He then looks at the 2 of the same and sees that he uses the specials and gains a bonus. He will always have to use the 2 specials because it is the most specific rule(the Special and normal even tell him to use the 2 specials rule since he will be using the special's rules anyway, and that particular Special will gain a bonus only when the model equipped with it has a second one)

except that would some how require him to be using more then two weapons.

I would also like to call your attention back to the Normal and Special rules(which further reinforces that the entire section is about equipped weapons): "Power fists, Thunder Hammers, and Lightning Claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

Equipped? you mean like wielding ready to use? My equipment includes two power fist which i have equipped so that i can use them together for an extra attack.

Equipped == has as part of their wargear. Not "ready to use"

"so you must pick two to use those rules "

[Citation Needed]

Find the rule allowing you to pick two, and you're golden. What, there isnt one? Guess you're still making up rules, and still unable to admit to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Equipped == has as part of their wargear. Not "ready to use"

"so you must pick two to use those rules "

[Citation Needed]

Find the rule allowing you to pick two, and you're golden. What, there isnt one? Guess you're still making up rules, and still unable to admit to it.

Sorry nos but equipping something is getting it ready to use no ifs or but that's common English. As for the "so you must pick two to use those rules " every where on that page you are told exactly how many of each.

Find the rule allowing you to pick what weapon you shoot with, and i will. There is no rule giving permission in ether case both require the model to be using a set number of weapons before being used. You ether pick or the game breaks. So why tell players that they must choose which weapon they use and they won't get a bonus attack from two different special weapons? So people know they don't get a bonus attack, that you can't pick and choose between the attack type and that you must pick one effect.

Now am i making rules up? ... well it depends. There are indeed no rules that tell use what to do if we have more then one shooting weapon, only that we can only use one. Also there are no rules telling us what to do if we have more then two close combat weapons but only rules telling what to do with one or two. Now ether logically we pick, and the game continues on, or the game stops. Now we could also look for a rule that gives us a choice, as you have, and we could raise its priories above it parent rule. That isn't enough though we must now rewrite it so it works with any number of special weapons.

Now in many threads I've just posted the two options and left the thread to die but since in this thread you and others have been going on about how your is is the right way to play ... well till this thread is lock i will deafened my view on how it should be played and refute any arguments.

Again Tri; you have not provided any rules for your argument; and your entire dismissals are based on willful disregard for the actual rules.

But lets go through them one-by-one:

Tri wrote: Interesting but flawed since that only gives the choice to pick between two where as a model like calgar has three. Now you are giver permision to use two weapons so you must pick two to use those rules and if for some reason you still are using two different special weapons you must again pick which to use.

Still lets keep reading ...

I am not even sure where to begin on this one...

The rules, as you keep pointing out, is for only 2 weapons; but more importantly yPage 37 already told us we can only possibly get the bonus for 2 weapons(any more provide no more bonuses, so are superfluous).

That was the first thing you said that was flawed.

Calgar only has 2 weapons, it is just that 1 of those weapons count as 2; I have stated and restated this 3 times in this thread already.

You are not given permission to use 2 weapons and pick which 2; you are given permission to use your equipped weapons(all of them) with the different possible combinations(which I will get to in a moment).

Nope you are not told to look at every combination just the combination that you are using

Seriously re-read the paragraph; this time stop looking for the word USE; just read it. You are fighting with your equipped weapons using the different possible combinations of equipment. You do not ned to have permission to read the rules so such a statement is completely fallacious. Also the Combinations themselves are not for use; they are for Equipped(on the first or second page I explained the Cyclical logic behind Using 2 different and then choosing to use 1; it must be equipped).

except that would some how require him to be using more then two weapons.

Either you are not reading and just being an ass, or you are not comprehending what you are reading(And I thought I was rather clear). Seriously this quote alone dismisses any argument you have for either reason.

Equipped? you mean like wielding ready to use? My equipment includes two power fist which i have equipped so that i can use them together for an extra attack.

This is one of the funniest nonsense-statements I have ever read. You have not shown in any of your examples a form of equipped which means using; it all simply means to have on your person. The "Use" in your statements means to use.

So, yes Equipped, as in Equipped.

Only time the rules specifically tells us to choose, is the case of haven two SCCWs, no other mentions of choosing exist. Yet model equipped for example with one single-handed and one two-handed SCCW. There are no rules that allow us to choose which one to use, as rule about two SCCWs pertains only single handed weapons. Also, If model has toe specials and one normal, there is really nothing that tells us which combination to use.

So if we insist that we are only allowed to choose if specifically told to do so, then the game breaks at this point. We have no way to determine with what weapon the model should attack with.

I claim that we are always able to choose which weapons to use, if we have surplus of them. This is true for shooting, and I see no reason why it would not be so for mêlée. And yes, there are no rule that allows us to do that, not for shooting, not for mêlée, but either we are allowed to choose, or the game breaks.

Purpose of two SCCWs rule is not give us some special allowance to choose, it is merely there to make clear that we can ever only claim special properties of one weapon at time.

Tri - there is also nothing limiting you to only having 2 shooting weapons. The other point you keep missing.

Stop erroneously comparing shooting to close combat, your attempt at avoidance is noted.

BTW - i wouldnt normally post dictionary definitions, but you just got "equipped" SO wrong it is needed, as you have a complate failure when it comes to what the word means:

"supply with the necessary items for a particular purpose:
all bedrooms are equipped with a colour TV
they equipped themselves for the campaign"

Oxford English Dictionary. Nothing there about "made ready for use", so stop pretending Equip means something else.

The rules only consider you being EQUIPPED with, as in HAVING ON YOUR PERSON 2 CCW. If you have more, there is a gap in the rules AND YOU HAVE NO PERMISSION TO CHOOSE
You have yet to refute a single point, and you will keep failing. Until you can provide a rule lett ing you choose 2 of 3+ CCW, then you are MAKING UP rules and you will ALWAYS be making up rules.

... I guess not maybe i play too many RPG's where you can buy weapons and armour but they do nothing till they are equipped. Fine we'll stick with the dictionary definition meaning have. So a model can only get an extra attack if it has another of that weapon.

Now lets look at shooting you are not given the option to pick a weapon to shoot but you are told you can only fire one. While you are right there is no penalty for having more then one weapon, you are also ignoring the simple fact there is no rule letting you pick ether.

Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

And if you are going to 'make up' or 'imply' rules... it makes no sense that having 2 SCCWs means no bonus attack but having 2 SCCWs + 1 CCW means bonus attack? Why wouldn't every super future space warrior then simply always carry a pocket knife around so he can always get his bonus attack with his special CCWs.

The least beneficial ruling requires the least amount of making up rules and is the best solution... If you have 2 SCCWs, you choose which one to use and you never get a bonus attack which is the drawback of having 2 SCCW. Having 3 weapons should not make you BETTER at combat. The only places that allow choice also tell you you cannot get bonus attacks and is supported by RAW.

nkelsch wrote:The least beneficial ruling requires the least amount of making up rules and is the best solution... If you have 2 SCCWs, you choose which one to use and you never get a bonus attack which is the drawback of having 2 SCCW. Having 3 weapons should not make you BETTER at combat. The only places that allow choice also tell you you cannot get bonus attacks and is supported by RAW.

And that's one of the viewpoints being argued. Thanks for catching up.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

If you go back one of these threads (think it may now be on page two) You'll find I just explained the two options. What I objects to is people being told that two different special weapons covers everything. Now if people are going to say this is the correct way to play this rule then i will find every fault with it and they are welcome to do the same.

Tri wrote:What I objects to is people being told that two different special weapons covers everything.

Because it does. Do you have 2 different special weapons? It doesn't matter that you have 3, 4, 10, or 50. You have 2 - so you follow the rules in that section.

So you finally admit you need to make up rules? Or are you still unwilling to do that yet?

No deflection, just a straight up answer: the rules only allow models to be equipped with 2 CCW. So a model with 3CCW cannot attack. Correct or no? If "No", cite the PRECISE RULE allowing them to choose 2 of the 3+ in order to then be able to actually choose a single 1

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you finally admit you need to make up rules? Or are you still unwilling to do that yet?

No deflection, just a straight up answer: the rules only allow models to be equipped with 2 CCW. So a model with 3CCW cannot attack. Correct or no? If "No", cite the PRECISE RULE allowing them to choose 2 of the 3+ in order to then be able to actually choose a single 1

You absolutely right let me just post in a comment from an earlier thread

Tri wrote:There are three reading, one i agree with and one i don't ... but here are both with the reasons why and why not ... Make your own mind up ... or don't but this is what this thread amounts to.

1) If you have 3+ close combat weapons and 2 are different special weapons then as per fighting with two different special weapons you never get the bonus attack.
(why not?) because you are not using all two weapons so how can you read a subsection of a rule that requires two weapons.

2) If you have 3+ close combat weapons you must pick two or you can select no of the options on page 42 (as there are only rules for fighting with 1 or 2 weapons). Pick those weapons you wish to use and look up the effect.
(Why not?) because you are wielding (meaning having) two different special weapons so you can never get the bonus attack for wielding two weapons.

and (not that any one ever bothers with this ... but i do want to cover all the bases)
3) There are no rules for a model with 3+ weapons so such models can never use any of the rules on page 42 and attacks without any bonuses.
(why not?) because no one in there right mind would think that a model with a weapon wouldn't use it just because they had too many.

Whichever way you go know that there are no rule backing you 100% any one saying so is lying. This isn't magic ... we do not have a complete rule set

but while I'm linking in responses how about from some one else?

Yakface wrote:The rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons on page 42 of the rulebook *ONLY* work if you assume that they refer to the combinations that the model is able to choose to utilize in that phase.

Why do I say that?

Because the list of combinations on page 42 of the rulebook is not exhaustive. For example, Marneus Calgar actually has THREE special weapons (two powerfists and a power weapon). Eldrad has two special weapons and one normal close combat weapon.

If you want to try to claim that these rules dictate how the model is forced to make his attacks, then the entire system breaks down because there are no rules for models with 3 special weapons or models with two special weapons and one normal weapon.

The only way the rules function as written is if you assume that the player controlling the model gets to choose which two weapons his model is going to use and then consult the rules for fighting with two single-handed weapons to see how those weapons work together.


So ultimately we have one interpretation in which the rules do not work at all and then we have another interpretation that works just fine. As you can't play with the former why is it worth even arguing about?

Tri wrote:... I guess not maybe i play too many RPG's where you can buy weapons and armour but they do nothing till they are equipped. Fine we'll stick with the dictionary definition meaning have. So a model can only get an extra attack if it has another of that weapon.

Now lets look at shooting you are not given the option to pick a weapon to shoot but you are told you can only fire one. While you are right there is no penalty for having more then one weapon, you are also ignoring the simple fact there is no rule letting you pick ether.

Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

The point being that the different possible combinations of use are based on what the model is equipped with.

Lets go back to a model with 2 different +1 other(be that other a Normal or a Same as one of the 2 different)

In this case the model is equipped with 3 CCWS, he has the different possibilities of use following those rules. Those rules then either simply state a bonus, State a bonus and determine that all attacks are made with the special(with a restriction on certain specials that they gain no bonus unless the model is carrying a second copy of the same special), State a choice but remove any chance of a bonus.

Gong through the possible weapon combinations we see that the most specific combination of weapons equipped is the one that grants a choice of a single weapon used, and denies any bonus.

Tri: I went back to this post BTW; because the same answer also covers your later post. it is not simply that you have 2 different specials and therefore it is the only one you should look at, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that in all cases of 2+ equipped 1-handed CCWs you need to find the combination that is most specific to what weapons you are equipped with, and those are the rules you must follow. It just so happens that in this case 2 different Specials is the most specific rule(as you would have 2 sets of Special and Normal, both of which telling you that you always use the Special and no option to choose which special)

For these same reasons the Assault marine Sgt with a pair of Lightning Claws and a Bolt Pistol will always use the Pair of claws in combat ad gain the bonus; it is the most specific combination.

As I have said 3 times in the thread already I am open to the option of Calgar gaining a bonus attack from his single weapon that is a pair of weapons; but then I also consider him a complete monkey-wrench in these rules and closer to an exception than the norm(It would require an FAQ to be anything other than a house-rule, and the only reason for the bonus would be the same as Nemesis Force Falchions, or the wargear selection of said Assault marine Sgt).

It doesn't matter how many CCW you can use. That whole section deals with how many CCW you are equipped with.
Let's look at Eldrad. He has a Witchblade (SCCW), Shuri-pistol (Normal CCW), and Staff of Ulthamar (SCCW). He is equipped with all 3. Now we look at our options for fighting.
2 Normal CCW - does not apply
2 Identical Special CCW - does not apply
Normal and Special - gains one additional attack...BUT
2 different Special CCW - NEVER get bonus attack for using 2 weapons.
Eldrad is equipped with 2 different special CCWs. No matter what weapon he chooses to use, he is still EQUIPPED with 2 different special CCW. Therefore he NEVER gains a bonus to attack for using 2 weapons.

I like that quote technique, Tri.

Happyjew wrote:It doesn't matter how many CCW you can use. That whole section deals with how many CCW you are equipped with.

That is 100% not true.

Read the entry again.

"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat."

They detail them being equipped and using two single-handed weapons.

and he never gets the bonus attack for using two different special weapons.

Kei, why is two special CCWs more specific rule than special and normal?

Why can a space marine armed with a special weapon still choose to fire his bolt pistol instead?

Also, what allows you to choose if you have a one two-handed and one single-handed SCCW?

Kommissar Kel wrote:The point being that the different possible combinations of use are based on what the model is equipped with.

Right so what you are saying is having the weapon is enough to trigger the rule? Well ok, yes you could read the page that way. You have to ignore a number of reference to use but yes you can. Does this solve the problems? No lets pick another example a model has a power fist, a pistol and a combat knife. What do we do then? The list is telling us to do two contradictory things.

How do we solve this? i suggest we pick two weapons and then look at the list

DR: you really need to add the rest of that quote, the parts after the comma:
"Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for the different possible combinations."

Placing a period where the comma is and then ending the quote changes the sentence and is altering the facts to fit your side of the debate.

You use the 2 weapons equipped, in the combinations of rules that follow.

Crimson: Special and normal always uses the rules for the Special; you have 2 specials and 2 sets of Special and Normal(in the case of grotsnik a Power klaw & a slugga or a Slugga and 'Urty Syringe); so where do you find the specific rules that allow you to choose which special weapon you use?

Tri: all the references to use(excepting the "If you are using a 2-handed weapon" bit; which denotes a choice to use any 2-handed CCWs, while it does not give explicit permission to choose, but then the entire page does not discuss 2-handed weapons anywhere else) are based on equipped weapons; the first I pointed out to DR: the equipped weapons are used in the combinations given. The remainder are all in the combinations: you use the special rules of the Special CCW for 2 of the same SCCW, You use the rules for the special weapon when you have a Special and a normal, you use the 1(and only 1) chosen Special weapon for 2 different specials.

For the Powerfist and 2 normals(basically what you said with the Combat knife and pistol), you do the exact same thing: parse out each combination and find the most specific combination: 2 normals gives a flat Bonus attack, it is the least specific out of all 4. Then you have 2 sets of normal and a special(Combat knife and Power fist, and pistol and Power fist), this rule generally gives you a bonus attack ad specifies that all attacks are made with the special, it then further specifies that Power fists will only ever gain a bonus attack from a model being equipped with 2 power fists.

Most specific(in Tri's example) is normal and Special since it tells you you always use the special.

In order of Specificity(Least to most) the rules go:
2 normals: least specific(flat bonus, no weapon use determined)
2 of the same Special: Next Least specific(Flat bonus, all attacks made with the Special)
a normal and a special: 2nd most specific(general bonus, all attacks made with the Special, certain specials never gain a bonus without a second copy of themselves equipped)
2 different Specials: most specific(Specifically never gains a bonus, you may choose which 1 weapon is used for all attacks)

If you only have 1 SH-CCW; you use that 1 weapon and do not have to worry.

If you only have 2 SH-CCWs; then the rules are incredibly straightforward, you only have 1 possible combination.

If you have any more than 2 SH-CCWs; you need to look at all the different possible combinations to determine which one is used, there is no choice in which combination permitted in the rules so the only choice that can be made is via the more specific rules.

Kommissar Kel wrote:so where do you find the specific rules that allow you to choose which special weapon you use?

I can answer this for you Kel.

BGB page 42 right hand column last pagargraph titled Two different special weapons wrote: When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

Saiisil wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:so where do you find the specific rules that allow you to choose which special weapon you use?

I can answer this for you Kel.

BGB page 42 right hand column last pagargraph titled Two different special weapons wrote: When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

I almost peed when I saw this post!

Saiisil, read the last half of hte sentence YOU just quoted, please.

Which half? the actual sentence or the part in parenthesis?

I was merely answering Kel's question about where to find specific rules about where it allows one to choose which special weapon they are using. Though it isn't exactly an allowance more of a requirement to do so. I also know the rules doesn't explicitly cover models with more then 2 weapons that can be used in hth but if we follow all of the different wordings found on that same page we can make assumptions as to what they would say if they did. Though making those assumptions is merely interpreting the RAI because there is no true RAW regarding the issue.

Crimson wrote:Kei, why is two special CCWs more specific rule than special and normal?

Because of the word 'never' that is included in the rule. just like any other time, when you have two rules in conflict with one that allows something (special and normal grants +1 attack) and one that states you can never get that same thing, well, never wins.

Seriously folks, how is this a question? Forget whatever other weapons the model might be carrying because it really doesn't matter.
Does it have two different special weapons? Yes.
At some point in the combat process, do you have to CHOOSE which one of them the model is going to attack with? Yes. Doesn't matter if you chose the special #1 plus something else, all that matters is taht you made a choice between the two different special weapons.
That means you are using the two different weapons rule as it is the only rule that allows you to choose one of two different special weapons to attack with and it says what again? Never get +1 attack.

Kommissar Kel I like you're reasoning but as I've said before it only works if you ignore that you should be using the weapons to get the bonus. In this case the most specific rule is that the model is using them.

NORMAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades,
bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to
the model using them. Remember that, in close
combat, pistols count as normal close combat weapons
and so the Strength and AP of the pistol are ignored.

SPECIAL CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS
These include more complex and powerful weapons
that enhance the wielder's combat skills and confer
bonuses, and sometimes penalties, to the models using
them. The most widely used are listed below:

FIGHTING WITH TWO
SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS
Some models are equipped with two single-handed
weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules
given below for the different possible combinations.

The sub rules are there for what is being used. Nothing more. No rules for picking a shooting weapon or a close combat weapon/s but we must to play the game.

You really haven't proven a point with those quotes.

Your first 2 are the broad-stroke basic rules for weapons of that type(whether they are single, or two handed).

Furthermore the "using" on normals, if you would actually look at rules and not for buzz-words, do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them.

So normals being used clearly can never do anything(including grant a bonus attack, which is a bonus), Right?

Seriously, searching the rules for a buzzword, and not reading the rule; does not make a very good case in your favor. The use of the word "Use" needs to be looked at in context to the rules you are reading to see just what is being talked about.

For the Fighting with two single-handed weapons use of the word "use"; I already admonished DR several times in this thread for ignoring the rest of the sentence, and here you are once again trying to remove the second half which changes the meaning of the first.

Yes, models can use 2 weapons; but they have to do so with the rules given below for the different possible combinations, which are based on what the model is equipped with.

So, since the weapons a model is equipped with will determine what weapons the model uses, and the different possible combinations have varying specificity with only 1 combination ever allowing a choice of weapon to use...

You know, I can just see a huge ork holding a cobbled together pistol in one hand and gingerly holding a giant rusty syringe in a mechanical klaw-like contraption with sweat dripping down as he tries very, very hard not to break the syringe...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Somebody PLEASE make this drawing...

rigeld2 wrote:

Tri wrote:Even though people repeatedly go back to Two different special weapons, that does not give permission to pick which weapons the model uses only what happens is a model is wielding two different special weapons. Even if you take that as having two special weapons it still does not cover models with more.

That's the point of the thread... there's nothing that covers when you have more than 2 special weapons, so you have to make up rules.

Well, make up rules... or somehow apply the ones you have been provided with. As someone probably said already an easy solution is to think of a model with 3+ weapons as also being a model with 2 weapons.