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Yet you dont have permission to choose before that - you only have permission to choose when you are down to 2 weapons.

Also you never "use' two weapons, you only ever use one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet you dont have permission to choose before that - you only have permission to choose when you are down to 2 weapons.

Also you never "use' two weapons, you only ever use one.

I think this is a key distinction, you never attack with 2 weapons, you only ever attack with 1 weapon and there are ways to get a +1 attack if criteria are met. If you have a single SCCW you are forced to use it and having 2 regular CCW never gives you the option not to apply the effects or penalities. (IE: Turn off the powerfist)

If you have 2 SCCW you may choose one of them and then never recieve a bonus. You do not get to choose two weapons and then select the combo. The rules never say this and never allow it.

CASE I

I have a bolt pistol, and a plasma gun.

I can shoot with one ranged weapon.

I can choose which one to shoot with.


CASE II

I have a thunder hammer, a power sword and a bolt pistol.

I can use two single handed close combat weapons.

I can choose which two to use.


Clear enough?

Having is not same than using.
The rules for using two different special weapons only come to play (Imagine that!) when I am using two different special weapons.

Crimson wrote:CASE II

I have a thunder hammer, a power sword and a bolt pistol.

I can use two single handed close combat weapons.

I can choose which two to use.


Clear enough?

Having is not same than using.
The rules for using two different special weapons only come to play (Imagine that!) when I am using two different special weapons.

The rules do not say this. You never attack with two weapons. You only ever attack with one weapon and may get a bonus attack based upon certain criteria.

You never get the chance to choose two weapons. If you have 1 SCCW you have to use it. If you have 2 SCCW you then get to chose one of them and never get a bonus attack such is the penalty for choosing.

If you have 3 weapons, two of which are SCCW then you are told what to do, choose one of the SCCW and never get a bonus attack. You may not choose a SCCW and a CCW for a bonus attack as the rules never permit you to. You only are able to if you have a single SCCW.

This is pretty easy. Just because you can choose for shooting you can't make up rules for CC.

nkelsch wrote:
The rules do not say this. You never attack with two weapons. You only ever attack with one weapon and may get a bonus attack based upon certain criteria.

Yes, you attack with one weapon, but still wield two, and can be equipped with more. That is why we have rules for fighting with two weapons.
But it would've been nice if GW had kept the terminology clearer...

You never get the chance to choose two weapons. If you have 1 SCCW you have to use it. If you have 2 SCCW you then get to chose one of them and never get a bonus attack such is the penalty for choosing.

If you have 3 weapons, two of which are SCCW then you are told what to do, choose one of the SCCW and never get a bonus attack. You may not choose a SCCW and a CCW for a bonus attack as the rules never permit you to. You only are able to if you have a single SCCW.

This is pretty easy. Just because you can choose for shooting you can't make up rules for CC.

But there are no rules that say you can choose for shooting either! Choosing is merely implied.


Frankly, I can see both sides for this. I think both interpretations make sense, and rules are too vague to clearly determine it either way.
I'd always go with RAI over RAW, but I don't have the foggiest what the intent is here either. Considering how old this edition already is, it is strange that there has not been a FAQ on this matter.

It isnt implied...

FIghting with two weapons restricts the use case to only having a maximum of 2 CCW. Having 3 does not let you choose a subset of 2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It isnt implied...

FIghting with two weapons restricts the use case to only having a maximum of 2 CCW. Having 3 does not let you choose a subset of 2.

Show me the rule that lets me to choose which shooting weapon I use. There is not one. But if I have more than I can use, I can still choose. Why the same would not apply here?

(Frankly, the rules for CC weapons are written like they'd have not even thought that there could be models with more than two weapons.)

Frankly there is no option of choice in the CCWs rules, and "Fighting with 2 single-handed weapons" does not mean you only ever fight with 2.

lets go back to page 37: "+1 two weapon: Engaged models with two single handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack. Models with more than 2 weapons gain no additional benefit - you only get one extra attack even if you have more than two weapons."

See that bolded part? between it and never being told that you can only ever use 2 weapons in close combat we are left with the assumpion that Models do infact use their 1000+ Power swords all at the same time, or their 1000+ Normals, or their 1000+Power swords with their 1000+ Normals(for a total of 2000+ single handed weapons).

The only time we are ever given a choice in weapon to use we are also then restricted to that 1 weapon(instead of the 999+ other weapons we have), and are denied any bonus attacks: that choice is when we have at least 2 different Special close combat weapons equipped.

The latter half of the paragraph just under "fighting with two single-handed weapons" grants us an extra choice: if we have any two-handed weapons we can always choose to use those.

In this case a model with a Special 2-handed CCW, and a normal and a Special Single handed CCW would be able to choose between the two-handed weapons effect, and the 1-handed weapons effects+bonus attack. As i am at a loss for examples lets assume for a moment that DR is correct about the Relic blade(this is not me saying he is correct; this is me saying I need a rhetorical that we will know the base rules for); So the Hopnour guard has the Relic Blade and the power sword+BP; he can choose to either strike 3x on the charge with a S6 PW, or 4x on the charge with a S4 PW; because he is not equipped with 2 different single handed Special CCWs, and the rules do allow for a choice between 2-handed and single handed weapon use.

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The latter half of the paragraph just under "fighting with two single-handed weapons" grants us an extra choice: if we have any two-handed weapons we can always choose to use those.

Wait wait! That does not follow. It just says 'if using...' there is no mention of choice there.

It is closer to a choice than anywhere else; it is also the only mention of two-handed weapons on the page.

"If you are using" denotes a choice: the rest of the rule deals with Combinations of weapons that can be used(in total, not per situation), and only 1 set of equipped single-handed CCweapons ever allows a choice: 2 different Specials. The rest merely provide you with the benefits they provide.

So you need to look at what CCWs are equipped on the model in question, then look at what the rules for the various combinations of equipped weapons provide, then you need to follow the most specific rule involved because as we all know: Specific trumps general.

In the case of a model with 2 pistols and a power sword, there are 2 combinations of weapons: 2 normals, ad a normal and a Special; both provide a bonus attack, so no problem there. The Special + Normal states that all attacks are made with the Special, so now we know what weapon combination must be used: the normal+ Special.

We have a model with a Pair of Lightning Claws, a Pistol, and a Power fist; there are 3 options: 2 of the same Specials, A normal and a special that never gains a bonus, and 2 different Specials, the most specific rule is that of the 2 different Specials which forces the choice of 1 weapon to be used and denies that model from ever gaining a bonus attack.

I'm starting to get confused here. Assuming the relic blade is a 2-handed weapon; then you are able to choose relic blade and have "x" attacks or use the bolt pistol and power sword and have "x+1" attacks. However I thought that if you have 2 SCCW then you don't get a bonus to attack. Or is it only 1-handed SCCW?

Only 2 different 1 handeds; which is what the combinations are talking about; the different combinations of 2 equipped 1-handed CCWs that can be used in Close combat.

So if the relic blade is 2-handed, then, you would gain an additional attack if you use the bolt pistol and power sword?

Yes.

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is closer to a choice than anywhere else; it is also the only mention of two-handed weapons on the page.

"If you are using" denotes a choice: the rest of the rule deals with Combinations of weapons that can be used(in total, not per situation), and only 1 set of equipped single-handed CCweapons ever allows a choice: 2 different Specials. The rest merely provide you with the benefits they provide.

Now you are just making stuff up. 'If you are using' does not denote a choice. You have been harping on how we cannot choose which mêlée weapons to use, because the rules do not explicitly allow that.

So either we can always choose which weapon(s) to use, or if a model is armed with an one-handed and a two handed weapon the game crashes, as it is impossible to choose with which one to attack. I know which one I prefer.

Crimson wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:It is closer to a choice than anywhere else; it is also the only mention of two-handed weapons on the page.

"If you are using" denotes a choice: the rest of the rule deals with Combinations of weapons that can be used(in total, not per situation), and only 1 set of equipped single-handed CCweapons ever allows a choice: 2 different Specials. The rest merely provide you with the benefits they provide.

Now you are just making stuff up. 'If you are using' does not denote a choice. You have been harping on how we cannot choose which mêlée weapons to use, because the rules do not explicitly allow that.

So either we can always choose which weapon(s) to use, or if a model is armed with an one-handed and a two handed weapon the game crashes, as it is impossible to choose with which one to attack. I know which one I prefer.

Bolded the important part. The only time you get to choose what weapon to use is when you have 2 different SCCWs. The same rule that allows you to choose prevents you from ever getting an additional attack from having 2 weapons.

As has been said you use two weapons and you attack with one.

If you have more then 3 weapons you must choose two use; the same as model with more then 1 weapon must pick one to shoot with.

If those two weapon, that you are using, are two different close combat weapons, then you don't get an extra attack. Otherwise the combination will give an extra attack (...excluding two handed weapons and other rules that negate this bonus)

This is because "Two different special weapons" is only used if it is called by "fighting with two single handed weapons". You can't call TDSW before you've had FW2SHW so any one claiming this is the choice are mad.

The rules work fine for a model with a single gun and a maximum of two close combat weapons but break for any one with any more. Ether you can choose or the game breaks. Since no one ever gives me a hard time choosing what i shoot then why should they dislike my choice of weapon?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Bolded the important part. The only time you get to choose what weapon to use is when you have 2 different SCCWs. The same rule that allows you to choose prevents you from ever getting an additional attack from having 2 weapons.

No, that part refers only to one-handed SCCWs. "Some models are equipped with two-single handed weapons they can use in close combat, with the rules given below for different combinations." The about two-handed says that if you are using such a weapon, then you do not use these rules.

Actually, If we go with logic that you can only choose when specifically allowed, I'd say that then you have to use two-handed weapon if you are equipped with one (rather than the game just crashing.)

But I do not still believe that's what is intended. You are supposed to be able to choose, just like with shooting weapons. A bit about two different specials is there only to make sure that you cannot claim benefits of special rules of two different weapons simultaneously.

What I have been harping on is that when presented with multiple single-handed weapons you are given an explicit choice of use only with 1 combination of equipped weapons, in all other cases you are using every weapon at hand(not just 2) and are forced to use the most Specific combination.

For two-handed weapons we do have an implied choice, because there is insufficient rules and the rules state If we are using(and have nothing to do with what we are equipped with, unlike the Single-handed weapons).

The Core of the Rule is that you must take into account all weapons you are equipped with and only 1 combination of equipped weapons allow a choice; Walrus bolded that choice.

Tri: please show me a rule that states Models can only ever use 2 different weapons; because I already showed a rule that said otherwise.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Tri: please show me a rule that states Models can only ever use 2 different weapons; because I already showed a rule that said otherwise.

? You are given permision to use one or two weapons on page 42 and not told how to use any more. The rules give permission to do things and then limit that where applicable. As for what you pointed out earlier.

Page 37 NUMBER OF ATTACKS // + 1 Two Weapons:
"Models with more than two weapons gain no
additional benefit - you only get one extra attack.
even if you have more than two weapons."
... doesn't actually say use it says have. The model can have any number of weapons but can only use 2 of them.

There is a reason that those rule say two every where no multiple or more then one or hell "different special weapons" why bother with two at all?

Can we please all agree that we have no rules to support either one case of the other? And if you say we do please remember you are reading a rule that says a model equipped with two CCW. which is not the case

So if you want to play a game in a specific way please discuss with your opponent before the games starts and/or e-mail GW for a rule that covers this and don't play any games until then?

Tri wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Tri: please show me a rule that states Models can only ever use 2 different weapons; because I already showed a rule that said otherwise.

? You are given permision to use one or two weapons on page 42 and not told how to use any more. The rules give permission to do things and then limit that where applicable. As for what you pointed out earlier.

Page 37 NUMBER OF ATTACKS // + 1 Two Weapons:
"Models with more than two weapons gain no
additional benefit - you only get one extra attack.
even if you have more than two weapons."
... doesn't actually say use it says have. The model can have any number of weapons but can only use 2 of them.

There is a reason that those rule say two every where no multiple or more then one or hell "different special weapons" why bother with two at all?

no you are given permission to use your equipped weapons in the combinations given; this means that all equipped weapons are to be used, but we must find the most relevant rules in the combinations to determine what weapons rules get used and what if any bonus is granted.

To do this we then take the Equipped weapons and begin looking at the combinations; we have no choice in the matter(excepting the very most specific combination, which very specifically allows a choice) we must use the most specific combination set rules.

Take for example a SM Assault Marine sgt; said sgt purchases a pair of Lightning in exchange for his CCW(Legal option), keeping his Bolt pistol; now it comes time for close combat; the Sgt's Player looks at his equipped weapons: 2 Lightning Claws, and a normal CCW(the Bolt pistol), so he looks at the relevant combinations and there rules: Special and a Normal & 2 of the Same Specials. He sees that with Special and a Normal he would not gain a bonus attack because the Special is one of the specials that require a second of the Same, He also sees that all attacks use the Specials rules. He then looks at the 2 of the same and sees that he uses the specials and gains a bonus. He will always have to use the 2 specials because it is the most specific rule(the Special and normal even tell him to use the 2 specials rule since he will be using the special's rules anyway, and that particular Special will gain a bonus only when the model equipped with it has a second one)

I would also like to call your attention back to the Normal and Special rules(which further reinforces that the entire section is about equipped weapons): "Power fists, Thunder Hammers, and Lightning Claws are an exception to this. Only a second power fist, thunder hammer or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons."

Adding on to Kommissar Kel's post, the first paragraph under 2 CCW says: Some models are equipped with two single-handed weapons" That's EQUIPPED not using/wielding. If you have 2 SCCW EQUIPPED you NEVER gain the bonus attack regardless of the weapons your currently wielding/using.

Couple of things I would point out (don't know if someone pointed this out yet or not as I am feeling lazy to read all 5 pages) but even if someone were to find convincing evidence that would prove that the 2 SCCW + 1 CCW you could get the +1A theory the Slugga+PK would not get it. Codex Ork page 89 clearly says that the Power Claw is a Power fist and page 42 BGB states that for a model with a Power Fist to get +1A for 2 CCW they must be wielding 2 Power Fists.

Not to sound like a jerk, Saiisil, but what exactly is your point? No one is trying to say PK and slugga get a bonus attack.

I bring that up because I saw someone say something about that on page 1 but didn't see any correction to it on either page 1 or 2. However I personally feel that the 'Urty Syringe and Slugga combo is a no go. Reason for this is page 42 of the BGB right hand column, first it mentions under 'Fighting with two single-handed weapons' "some models are equipped" further down it explains the different combos and the last combo is 'Two different special weapons' the paragraph here doesn't specify wielding so we fall back to the previous mentioned sentence wording of being equipped, it goes on you have to choose which weapon you bonus from and you gain no bonus attacks "(such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons)". This is why I believe no bonus attack in that case. Such as I have always played it for my own units that have similar issues.

Slightly OT, I've only screwed this up (partially) with Eldrad. Granting a bonus attack with Witchblade and shuri-pistol, but not with Staff. Then again I thought that the staff was 2-handed until a couple of days ago, so I was playing partially right...

Grots R OP wrote:Clearly he can swing the PK and then pull the slugga trigger. Likewise he could poke you with syringe and pull the trigger. In the PK case, the slugga is "just a distraction that allows the PK to hit you better"-resulting in 5 attacks. And in the syringe case, the slugga blows a hole in you at short range-which allows the "missed" syringe poke's poison to seep into the wound-so +1.

this is one of the posts I was talking about.

Apologies, been awhile since I read the beginning of this thread...

accepted, though I don't think you needed to delete what you originally posted when you edited your post to ask why I brought it up. I know where I stand on the issue and I can and have provided the evidence to my side. I have never seen convincing evidence any other way around.