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I was just on 3++ and noticed something AbusePuppy posted a while back: he proposed making Venomthropes give out Stealth in addition to their other bonuses, making them T5, or just giving them Stealth alone. Personally, I like the Stealth aura idea, it fits the whole smog cloud thing, and puts the effects more in line with the KFF (who gives a 4+, correct?).

Here's two of the lists i was pondering about. Not too sure, if they're THAT great. But i've seen these setups before. Just not as powerful.

The first list evolves around having dual Carni-Prime bubble - with wound allo. Having two of these, i imagine, could cause alot (ALOT) of havoc.
- I took 2x Tervies, both with psy-beacons, in order to gain FnP AND onslaught. (Wasn't really sure the Cata was needed here. But i love it, none the less!)

Carni-list -2k pts

HQ
2x Prime, TS - 180
2x Prime, TS - 180

Elite
3x HG - 165
3x HG - 165

Troops
10x Terma - 50
10x Terma - 50
Tervi, Ons, Psy-Beac - 225
Tervi, Cata, Psy-Beac - 225

Heavy Support
2x Carni, 2x TL-devs - 380
2x Carni, 2x TL-devs - 380

--
2000 points


Second list was with the Lictors in mind, mainly. You have the +2 reserve choice, so that anything may be dropped down fast. Lictors can pop out of any Area Terrain and launch assaults around the board to CC-occupy. I'd try to pair the Lictors to keep them alive in CC (in order for the 6" DS). I'd then have the Mawlocs TftD away - either by Pheromone Trail or by themselves. Also; after the Trygon tunnel, your 'Stealers would be able to use that aswell. Trygon was Primed up, as the list lacks synapse. However, it does offer a great amount of T6 wounds, and the ability to DS - and DS-kill all around the Table.

Infiltrate List - 2k pts (+2 Reserve List)

HQ
Hive Tyrant, Hive C, A Shell, R Chitin, HVC - 260
- 2x Tyrant Guard - 100

Elite
3x HG - 165
3x HG - 165
2x Lictor + DL'er 220

Troops
9 Stealer + BL - 184
10x Termagaunt - 50
Tervigon, Cata, Psy-Beac - 225

Fast Attack
4x Shrike, AG - 120

Heavy Support
Mawloc - 160
Mawloc - 160
Trygon, Prime, AG - 250

--
1999 pts


Automatically Appended Next Post:

odorofdeath wrote:I was just on 3++ and noticed something AbusePuppy posted a while back: he proposed making Venomthropes give out Stealth in addition to their other bonuses, making them T5, or just giving them Stealth alone. Personally, I like the Stealth aura idea, it fits the whole smog cloud thing, and puts the effects more in line with the KFF (who gives a 4+, correct?).

Why not just give the surrounding units a 4+ cover save, instead of stealth?
- There's really no point in saying: "it gives away 5+ cover, and +1 cover from stealth". Well... Unless you can claim a 4+ cover on the board.

I'd rather see it with an option of having better survivability. But being such a nasty buffer already, i believe there's a point as to WHY it has only got the T4 wound.

True. I guess the Stealth thing is a little redundant.

odorofdeath wrote:Is there something I'm missing about Spike Rifles? Why bother with them? Is the extra 6" better than Strength 4?

Also, I hate trying to fit in enough AT. Bleh Hive Guard $22 per model... :(

I think they'd be better for a Termagaunt unit that's sitting on a backfield objective, I mean it's a free upgrade so they just increase their likelihood of serving some more use.

Lukus83 wrote:2. The Broodlord needs a profile (unless I missed it).

Yeah I'll put that in the summary chart thing (whoops, I meant to put that in v1.3).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I noticed another mistake: the Mycetic Spore was given the Doom of Malan'tai's profile, I will fix this in the next version of the Fandex.

Does anyone else feel like the Doom in particular, and Zoanthropes in general should get a slight buff to durability? Perhaps T5, or a 2+ armor and no Invulnerable, or something. The Doom is so easy to kill it's a little disheartening.

Or am I just insane?

Also, in v1.3, Pheromone Trail is worded to only work *after* a Lictor brood has come out of Reserve... so it's useless again. Typo?

odorofdeath wrote:Does anyone else feel like the Doom in particular, and Zoanthropes in general should get a slight buff to durability? Perhaps T5, or a 2+ armor and no Invulnerable, or something. The Doom is so easy to kill it's a little disheartening.

I think in general that zoans are suppose to be glass cannons of the nidz.

odorofdeath wrote:Does anyone else feel like the Doom in particular, and Zoanthropes in general should get a slight buff to durability? Perhaps T5, or a 2+ armor and no Invulnerable, or something. The Doom is so easy to kill it's a little disheartening.

Or am I just insane?

Also, in v1.3, Pheromone Trail is worded to only work *after* a Lictor brood has come out of Reserve... so it's useless again. Typo?

Personally I think Zoanthropes are really tough to kill with their 3++, I've had Guardsmen pour tons of fire into them with no effect.

And I'm sorta testing that out, not sure if it should be always effective, or just when they arrive. I mean, it makes sense to me if the pheromone trail always works because they'll be secreting it while in hiding.

kenshin620 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Does anyone else feel like the Doom in particular, and Zoanthropes in general should get a slight buff to durability? Perhaps T5, or a 2+ armor and no Invulnerable, or something. The Doom is so easy to kill it's a little disheartening.

I think in general that zoans are suppose to be glass cannons of the nidz.

Think of an attack bike versus a Zoan. They are both clearly "glass-cannons", which is fine, but you need to be able to deliver your payload to be an effective weapon. Attack bikes do this via speed and a weapon that's effective at 24". Zoans IMO are tough enough, but need a better method to deploy their payload.

My suggestions would be something of the following;
1. Auto-pass the psychic test for warp blast. I mean, it's a moving psychic cannon run by a hive mind, tapping into the most stable warp power available.
2. Make the power un-blockable. It's the most focused and deadly overwhelming power in the game and it's from a glorified psychic canon, why is this blockable by normal means?
3. Increase the range. No brainer here.
4. Give other units in the army wider access to onslaught (and cheaper) so it's more viable to run and blast.
5. Maybe make them psy level 2, and give them onslaught or some other power to increase their utility.
6. Least likely would be to make them independent characters, but this would likely be overpowered as it would be like giving them dozens of extra wounds. Maybe only let them join specific squads? Even that might be OTT, as absorbing some plasma fire for a Tyrant and guards might be broken as well.

As for the Doom he's where he should be. Any increase, AT ALL, in his survivability would need a MASSIVE increase in points or a decrease in his offensive abilities. T5 or EW would increase his survivability several times over and would require him costing 200+ points. I'd like his rules cleaned up a little, like his AoE leech ignoring cover again and having his power nullified doesn't remove wounds but that's about it.

We once ran a campaign where units could gain USRs based on what territories you owned. Dropped Eternal warrior on the Doom, it basically broke the game. He jumped up to 8 wounds in a hurry and proceeded to eat almost a full 1500 points of firepower without going down.

Yep, EW+ Doom is wicked.

I played a Campaign where you got bonuses every week depending on what side did the best. Week 3 Chaosd Side, and the Nids, Crons, DE and Orks by allied, got an item called the Black Sword. One HQ or Character gets it in return for Losing a weapon. In return you gain EW, double Toughness, Double Str, a Force Weapon if your a Psyker, and your attacks ignore EW.

I had Doom running around at Str 4 to start, because his Str=W, but at T8 and EW. 2500pts game he ID Calgar and Lysnader, IN CC! He then wiped a bunch of tanks from the Battlefield by biting them, and then sucked on every weapon he had left, but not before he lost another good chunk to the rest of my army, and the Spirirt Leech.

Well, i gotta admit - writing codices is a tough nut to crack (Not that i've written any material myself). Coming up with constructive critisism is harder than expected.
You have to take so many factors into account. The units own abilities, strengths, weaknesses, point cost - before and after - likewise you account for what other units are in the army, and how they all flow together. Furthermore, it is also important to take into consideration what the opponent is able to field at a given time, and how they're able to defend against the given unit (or setup (AKA flow)).

Personally, what i don't want to see in a Tyranid army is too many capable guns. The ap of our stuff has always been low, and i feel that's fine. Nids shouldn't excell in the shooting phase. They're meant to overwhelm by sheer numbers, massive MCs and Psychic force multiplier units.
The best parts of the Fandex,the "resurrection" of units into the Tyranid ranks, making them into a viable option. I've always had a soft spot for the Lictor unit. Not having the option of it - from being too useless, as it is - has been a huge bother ever since the first tear fell from my cheek, landing on the Lictors 5th edition entry in the codex.

Working out T4 units efficiency
What concerns our T4 guys, i'm much hesitant about how to work out these units. Currently, they're rarely used due to the ID-factor. The option of having these creatures joined by a Prime - for wound allo's - and ensuring cover saves is an important factor. But the prime entry in the list, alone, also takes up a vital spot, which could've been used for other important unit. In other words, you'd have to bend the list around these T4-units in order for them to fulfil their role; making it into shooting range or - worse - into assault (in which there's yet another danger of getting cleaned up by power fists and similar).

So basically, the real issue at hand is that the T4 on these guys, with the issued ranged weapon load-outs (and at a greater cost all together), prevents them from fulfilling their given role (be it support, shooting or assaulting), hence rendering them insufficient (at least, in the regard of trading T6 wounds, points wise).
NOW, if we take "Hive Will" (psychic power that grants EW) into consideration, the whole picture changes. Now our T4 buddies can withstand the ID, which drastically improoves their suffiency, by ensuring their survival against s8 and greater. But there's a catch! EW in the hands of a Warrior unit can be considered a fair deal, agreed?
- But what happens when this power is used on other units, such as the DoM?

Alternatively, what could be done here, is to grant certain units a "reversed biker toughness" - perfeerably against shooting. So rather than giving out EW, which i find could easily become too OP, when combining it with certain units, you could have it give the selected unit +1 toughness in a given phase (say; shooting). What this would accomplish is:
- Protect the unit from ID against Missile-spam (and other s8), when bestowed the Hive Will-buff.
- Enable ID by using rare s10-weapons upon the given Tyranid unit.
- Prevent combo's which would render the Tyranids OP (such as Doom + EW).
- Enable the opponent to fend against these combo's, by using CC against these units.

Altogether, i'd find this to be the better solution, as i feel the EW power could too easily become an abused option.

I'll write more later!

1. Auto-pass the psychic test for warp blast. I mean, it's a moving psychic cannon run by a hive mind, tapping into the most stable warp power available.
2. Make the power un-blockable. It's the most focused and deadly overwhelming power in the game and it's from a glorified psychic canon, why is this blockable by normal means?
3. Increase the range. No brainer here.
4. Give other units in the army wider access to onslaught (and cheaper) so it's more viable to run and blast.
5. Maybe make them psy level 2, and give them onslaught or some other power to increase their utility.
6. Least likely would be to make them independent characters, but this would likely be overpowered as it would be like giving them dozens of extra wounds. Maybe only let them join specific squads? Even that might be OTT, as absorbing some plasma fire for a Tyrant and guards might be broken as well.

I like number 1 the most, but I'm gonna try the Doom out more to see if he's too good already. Personally, I fight pretty much exclusively mech, so I doubt he will rock the boat much.

1. Auto-pass the psychic test for warp blast. I mean, it's a moving psychic cannon run by a hive mind, tapping into the most stable warp power available.
2. Make the power un-blockable. It's the most focused and deadly overwhelming power in the game and it's from a glorified psychic canon, why is this blockable by normal means?
3. Increase the range. No brainer here.
4. Give other units in the army wider access to onslaught (and cheaper) so it's more viable to run and blast.
5. Maybe make them psy level 2, and give them onslaught or some other power to increase their utility.
6. Least likely would be to make them independent characters, but this would likely be overpowered as it would be like giving them dozens of extra wounds. Maybe only let them join specific squads? Even that might be OTT, as absorbing some plasma fire for a Tyrant and guards might be broken as well.

Agreed with odor, #1 is the most balanced. And most Tyranid psychic powers auto-hit anyway. That's probably the only thing I'd change actually.

Billinator wrote:- But what happens when this power is used on other units, such as the DoM?

Well if they're using Hive Will on the Doom of Malan'tai then there are a few things to take into consideration. It's a deadly combo, but if they're casting it on DoM then the power isn't available for other units that need it, like Warriors. It also only has a range of 12", so the caster will be nearby and vulnerable if the DoM is trying to get the most out of his abilities (since the Tyrant didn't cast it on himself, then he's vulnerable to Force Weapons, and can be shot instead to remove the DoM's buffs). Finally, it's a psychic power, so the caster is going to Perils at some point or another.

However, that does bring up a terrifying deathstar idea - Swarmlord, 3 buffed-up Tyrant Guard and the Doom of Malan'tai, working in synergy.

I don't think returning eternal warrior is such a terrible idea. Being only t4 with a 4+ save warriors die pretty easily to basic bolt rounds and heavy bolters as it is. They also lack any anti vehicle ability so they would in all likelihood be beaten by most walker units without it squishing them in a single hit. You're making a unit whose main attractions are synapse (for non existant hordes since they're terrible and we have stealers) and mulitple wounds that are easily negated by heavy weapons. On paper with swords and lash they'd be an extremely effective CC unit but they almost never get there because; to pick an example

Guard heavy weapon squad with ML 90pts

Bare bones warriors 90pts

36'' away start shooting 1.5 hits 1.2 kills
nids run 9 inches forward
guard kill another 1.2
last one advances another six just out with his devourer, if he it got higher on its run 1.5 hits 1 wound 0.66 chance of knocking a wound off a base
they shoot and finsih it off

You could argue that it would be OP if they got EW back because they would only have dropped a single warrior in the above scenario on average but with just nine wounds at 4+ you only have to kill essentially a nine man scout squad. Thats hardly difficult with the plethora of autocannons, HB and small arms most armies have access to.

What I'd really like to see in any new codex would have to be a sincere attempt to make hoard viable. Its a travesty that ork boys and guard cost the same as gaunts when those units don't require expensive and extensive synapse support (a massive burden in multiple objective games) as well as packing far greater punch.

ie orks mob rule and boss pole do not run away whilst i have to spend 90pts for a babysitting unit of warriors. Guard can function without support, can buy extra weapons and gain an integrated orders system with their standard HQ and troop selections. Not expensive upgrades like for the Tervigon. Also the meta punishes you for taking horde with the no retreat rule, if you kill two marines but lose a combat by eight the odds are you will lose another eight gaunts and be wiped out. Since (T)gaunts don't have the stats to beat virtually any other unit in the game they will always be defeated. This includes Imp guard who have better armour and will usually be in cover to negate the gaunts higher I. Add to that having a long range gun which can whittle away gaunts (in equal numbers remember) and the fights already a foregone conclusion. Thats before you come to the likes of guard vets with def grenades or FNP command squads, or flamer reserve squads etc.

I would seriosuly consider dropping the points of t gaunt to 3pts and h gaunts to 5pts since even without specialising in hoard clearence its incredibly easy to beat these units in close combat or gun them down due to limited numbers relative to other armies. This is especially since whilst guard put a lot of points on tanks and the like we also put a lot of points into MC and synapse so nid players never gain an advantage in numbers that way.

Also, i would try to integrate the support powers of the nids into synapse more totally. So for what you pay for catalyst, brood progenator you gain a 12'' radius and for the tyrants preferred enemy ability as well. This just makes common sense since they can communicate information via synapse anyway and the price for these upgrades/units is excessive enough as it is and restricted by unit type for the benefit.

For the lols. If a unit has a lash whip, instead of shooting with another wepaon it may use its whip to lash onto a fleeing vehicle using regular bs. This does not cause the vehicle to be pinned in place but reduces the difficulty of attacking it by one degree if the tyranid assaults the vehilce. So, a hive tyrant lashes a chimera that moved 12'' in its turn and would normally hit on a 6+ would now hit on a 4+ as it has better purchase on the vehicle.

That idea is really good. Lash whips can only affect Non vehicles or walkers, so gicve them some use against vehicles, as their partner weapon, the bonesword, is also useless VS all vehicles, walkers included.

Agreed, I'd like that idea as well. Probably have to raise the points by a bit though.

I would sugest that vehicles moving Flat Out are still hit on 6s. no matter what you werap around a Stormraven, it still goes fast.

Yeah I think I'll make it something like the following:

"...In addition, in assault Lash Whips count vehicles as moving no faster than combat speed, unless the vehicle moved Flat Out. This means that they will regularly hit on a 4+. This benefit only extends to the creature with Lash Whips."

With a +5/+10pt cost increase.

Here's an idea for venomthropes; (stolen out of the necron book)

How about the enemy must test for night fighting to target a unit within 6" of the venomthrope?

In addition to a 5+ cover save? I dunno, the 5+ save is better imho, I dunno if it needs another buff.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Yeah I think I'll make it something like the following:

"...In addition, in assault Lash Whips count vehicles as moving no faster than combat speed, unless the vehicle moved Flat Out. This means that they will regularly hit on a 4+. This benefit only extends to the creature with Lash Whips."

With a +5/+10pt cost increase.

I understand where you're going, I just don't like it. Making LW/BS a 20-25 point upgrade to fragile warriors? That's an iffy proposition.

Mhmm well I might drop the suggestion entirely, but it is an interesting idea.

Yeah, I don't like the Lash Whip idea, it's a little too many points for my taste.

I like the Night-Fight rule thing, though. Personally, Venoms usually are pretty easy to preserve with Primes attached.

odorofdeath wrote:Does anyone else feel like the Doom in particular, and Zoanthropes in general should get a slight buff to durability? Perhaps T5, or a 2+ armor and no Invulnerable, or something. The Doom is so easy to kill it's a little disheartening.

I think zoans are fine as they are. They are actually quite resilient and can absorb a lot of firepower otherwise meant for your monstrous creatures.

If anyone still wants to change them, I'd just make Warp Blast/Lance into a regular shooting attack just like Warp Field was a psychic power made into a special rule. I'd then increase his price by +10-15pts each.

Though just to reiterate, I think zoans are fine just as they are.

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There seems to be some concerns about Hive Will and the DoM. Honestly, to me it isn't really that big of a deal. The tyranid player can only give 1 unit EW. If he picks the DoM, then just concentrate on wiping out the other tyranid units.

But if you really want to nerf Hive Will, then I would recommend reducing it's range to 6" only. That alone would make a huge difference. Now deepstriking the DoM into enemy territory and it's very hard to make him EW. As a matter of fact, with only a 6" range, it will force the tyranid player to play more strategically if they want to use Hive Will, and I think that is a good thing.

--------------------------------------------------------

Totalwar1402 wrote:What I'd really like to see in any new codex would have to be a sincere attempt to make hoard viable. Its a travesty that ork boys and guard cost the same as gaunts when those units don't require expensive and extensive synapse support (a massive burden in multiple objective games) as well as packing far greater punch.

I would seriosuly consider dropping the points of t gaunt to 3pts and h gaunts to 5pts since even without specialising in hoard clearence its incredibly easy to beat these units in close combat or gun them down due to limited numbers relative to other armies. This is especially since whilst guard put a lot of points on tanks and the like we also put a lot of points into MC and synapse so nid players never gain an advantage in numbers that way.

I feel quite the opposite. Horde nids are definitely viable, especially now with cheaper hormagant upgrades and the arrival of the new hormagon. Don't forget you have tervigons and hormagons creating more gaunts each turn. It all adds up, especially if you have 2 of these MC troops in your army. Then the hormagon can give its hormagants Furious Charge and with Psychic Beacon, you can actually make these gaunts quite resilient with FNP. Also, keep in mind that a straight up comparison between tyranid troops and other armies' troops doesn't really tell the whole story. Nids, more than almost any other army, rely on synergy of units and buffing.

IMO, pure horde nids is not a viable, balanced tyranid build, but a tyranid horde army with some support units is definitely a viable build. Throw in a hormagon/tervigon here and there and a few hive guards/zoans and/or a t-fex for AT and you've got yourself a decent tyranid army. You just don't see a horde nid build that often nowadays because there are just so many better units in the army itself, but this fandex definitely brings back horde nids as a playable build.

Also, i would try to integrate the support powers of the nids into synapse more totally. So for what you pay for catalyst, brood progenator you gain a 12'' radius and for the tyrants preferred enemy ability as well. This just makes common sense since they can communicate information via synapse anyway and the price for these upgrades/units is excessive enough as it is and restricted by unit type for the benefit.

Unfortunately, while it may make sense to some, balance-wise it's too strong. This is what will break the codex. Preferred Enemy is an awesome ability. Most codices only give it to 1 unit - the unit that the IC is attached to. Old Adversary gives it to all units but balances it out by forcing you to have to play them close together, limiting your mobility and making you vulnerable to blast weapons. Increasing the range will buff up your army exponentially. In other words, double the range of OA and you've just about quadrupled the killing power of your army.

Inreasing the range of brood progenitor to 12" essentially gives your termagants a 24" assault range and your hormagants a 30" assault range. It also makes them easier to contest objectives with that extra 6" range. With the 12" deployment, you could leap-frog screening units as if you were moving like jump infantry and assault units in the back like long fangs, lootas, etc. This is just too strong IMO.

For the lols. If a unit has a lash whip, instead of shooting with another wepaon it may use its whip to lash onto a fleeing vehicle using regular bs. This does not cause the vehicle to be pinned in place but reduces the difficulty of attacking it by one degree if the tyranid assaults the vehilce. So, a hive tyrant lashes a chimera that moved 12'' in its turn and would normally hit on a 6+ would now hit on a 4+ as it has better purchase on the vehicle.

Again, I think this makes the lash whips too strong. What is the one weakness of an assault-based tyranid army? Catching cruising vehicles. Now give them a couple of lash whip units and they will just about wreck house against both foot-based as well as mech armies, especially when your assault units are monstrous creatures or have a ton of attacks like most of the tyranid infantry units.

I'm also not too big on giving 1 biomorph too many functions. Now lash whips will reduce your I to 1 or -1 to A and it will slow down vehicles for you to hit them more easily? I would say give them one or the other , but not both.

Besides, it doesn't really make much sense that an infantry unit like tyranid warriors can slow down a tank enough so that they can hit it better (though I can see the tyrant, a monstrous creature, being capable of doing this).

Agreed with jy2, although I think that reducing Hive Will to 6" makes it too short ranged. 12" is pretty small as it is.

That's fine. I like Hive Will as it is currently as well.

* True, but guard also rely on synergy with orders and the like for their support. Also orks have integrated USR, mob rule and boss pole. Nids even just to function as regular units that can hold objectives already need massive support from synapse. From a points standpoint, it just makes far more sense to buy genestealers than rely upon synergy for an expensive MC to make a poor unit average against basic troops. Oh I did the tervigon army, took four of them, spawned 60-80 extra gaunts on top of the 50 i already had. They bounced off an infantry guard force of twnety vets with CA, def grendaes and a FNP command squad with CA. My trygon then goes on to kill 15 chaos marines, 10 guard vets and contest the objective to force a draw.

*Really? Theres justification for gaunts costing as much as guard? Or HG costing as much as orks? Why do I want to waste points on units that are unusable and can only inflict mediocre casualties on other horde units even if you factor out casualties from shooting. I've seen a trio of genestealers, even a sinlge stealer, kill more guard than whole broods of gaunts. If i know Iam going to lose half my gaunts or 2/3 of my stealers to shooting but one is almost guarenteed to prevail vs guard whilst the gaunts have to rely on massive luck. Just my experience with them at my club, auto win with stealer n mc, auto lose with a mixed army. Mind you, gargoyles are awesome, why they aren't troops with a winged tyrant is beyond me they could have sold so many more kits. I actually had twenty of them with poison biomorphs go around hunting mc on the battlefield.

ps at my local meta the guard players like big blast weapons but are averse to lascannons. i tried to tell them in 4th, begged them at times, but they wouldn't listen. Alas they did not listen...

*Probably right about the synpapse radius, although I thought brood progenator only allowed the use of the monsters leadership; when they're fearless anyway.

* The lash whips thing would only work for the hive tyrant on its own. Since the nid army is so big on synergy why not let them confer it to a mc in BTB with an attached warrior. For something like a trygon or fex to get it would thus require a very specific event for a fairly minor advantage. Okay, catching a razorwing fighter is a bit OTT but for up to 12'' its not too excessive. I think lash whips only reduce enemy I to 1, old rules it was -1A so an extra rule sin't much to remember. A bit like rending claws work out differently for vehicles and infantry.

*Moving vehicles are a problem when they're the only viable AT in the army. Rupture cannons are okay but very expensive, zonthorpes a specialist unit with short range. Having a 'weakness' of the tyranids being simply moving trnasports 12'' so you can't kill them in cc and letting the rest of the army shoot your mc until nothing can hurt tanks is just bad.

@Totalwar
- I agree with the 'Stealers being far superior to the gaunts. I've had an outflanking group of 'stealers and a B-lord save the day more times, than i can count.

Andilus wrote:Well if they're using Hive Will on the Doom of Malan'tai then there are a few things to take into consideration. It's a deadly combo, but if they're casting it on DoM then the power isn't available for other units that need it, like Warriors. It also only has a range of 12", so the caster will be nearby and vulnerable if the DoM is trying to get the most out of his abilities (since the Tyrant didn't cast it on himself, then he's vulnerable to Force Weapons, and can be shot instead to remove the DoM's buffs). Finally, it's a psychic power, so the caster is going to Perils at some point or another.

However, that does bring up a terrifying deathstar idea - Swarmlord, 3 buffed-up Tyrant Guard and the Doom of Malan'tai, working in synergy.

I have to stand my ground. The EW-power is too strong. I do agree with you, that Warriors (and other T4 for that matter) are too exposed to ID as it is. You're almost better off with putting the points elsewhere, and worse; It eliminates your options in proportion to building lists.

BUT it's too easy to abuse the EW-rule. In 4th - if i recall correctly - the EW-rule applied to Synapse Creatures only. If you allow for the power to be cast around, you're boosting the survivability of certain units too greatly. I can't stress enough about how it could affect the course of the game, if the DoM was granted this buff.
"Oh, but that means that the Warriors wouldn't get this buff." - well, true that. But if there's no Warriors around, and the points had been spend elsewhere (say, T6-units) it wouldn't matter.
"Then the HT itself is vulnerable to Force Weapons ID" - As far as i recall, the Force Weapons are CC-only. Furthermore they require the wielder to hit and wound. AFTER that, there's the SITW (3D6 Psy-test). Not to mention a screen of gaunts they'd have to remove first.

There is, of course, alot of factors to take into consideration. The game establisher might've been to cheap on the terrain, hence making it difficult to properly setup units such as the Hive Guards, or claiming cover, at the army advances. Some armies have easy and cheap access to alot of s8+ weapons (A 2k pts SW-list can pack as many as 20 MLs). Some can Alpha the c**p out of your army, if you don't reserve up. And the nidz aren't the best army to reserve up, as it already is (since we cannot assault after DS, and we've already got a good portion of ground to cover, starting from the table edge after reserving up.)
- I'd perfeer the "Hive Will"-ability to grant the +1t (vs shooting only), as it wouldn't be as abusable, and it wouldn't render the opponent completely helpless against certain T4-units.

As i've said earlier. It's not the idea that's at flaw. It's the combination of certain units, that can be abused too easily. It could too easily turn the Tyranids into a no-brainer army, capable of steam-rolling most armies. The Fandex already fixes alot of current issues for the Tyranids - such as being able to assault after DS'ing (tunnel, lictors), improving their reserves (the choice of adding the reserve bonus or not), handling transports (HG 30"), assaulting into terrain (Genestealer grenades), overall better survivability (dual-Catalyst (psy' beacon), 5++ saves, more primes for wound allocations), and so forth!

Billinator wrote:BUT it's too easy to abuse the EW-rule. In 4th - if i recall correctly - the EW-rule applied to Synapse Creatures only. If you allow for the power to be cast around, you're boosting the survivability of certain units too greatly. I can't stress enough about how it could affect the course of the game, if the DoM was granted this buff.

As jy2 has shown, Tyranids that throw around EW as a psychic power is not overpowered. And, if I remember right, EW covered anything that was under Synapse, not just Synapse Creatures (I could be wrong - it's been a while).

"Oh, but that means that the Warriors wouldn't get this buff." - well, true that. But if there's no Warriors around, and the points had been spend elsewhere (say, T6-units) it wouldn't matter.

EW - rather, the lack of ID from shooting - makes Warriors a viable choice again.

"Then the HT itself is vulnerable to Force Weapons ID" - As far as i recall, the Force Weapons are CC-only. Furthermore they require the wielder to hit and wound. AFTER that, there's the SITW (3D6 Psy-test). Not to mention a screen of gaunts they'd have to remove first.

It's not that hard to hit or wound - and there are ways around the psychic test (brotherhood banner). And they don't have to remove anything - if the HT is involved in CC, it's going to get force weapons concentrated on it.

There is, of course, alot of factors to take into consideration. The game establisher might've been to cheap on the terrain, hence making it difficult to properly setup units such as the Hive Guards, or claiming cover, at the army advances.

You should be able to have some success regardless of terrain. Yes, terrain placed in your favor will give you better odds, but you should not lose simply because the table doesn't have enough cover. That goes for any army.

- I'd perfeer the "Hive Will"-ability to grant the +1t (vs shooting only), as it wouldn't be as abusable, and it wouldn't render the opponent completely helpless against certain T4-units.

I'm sorry - could you clarify that? As far as shooting goes, +1T vs shooting is *better* than EW. Not only can you not be ID'ed (except for Str10 shots) it's *harder to wound you*. It is exactly as abusable. And how is EW rendering anyone completely helpless against "certain T4-units" which I'm assuming means DoM.

As i've said earlier. It's not the idea that's at flaw. It's the combination of certain units, that can be abused too easily. It could too easily turn the Tyranids into a no-brainer army, capable of steam-rolling most armies.

Name the tactic. I would bet you're wrong. DoM with EW? Far from "steam rolling most armies". And I don't see the difference between adding +1T for shooting vs EW as far as the DoM is concerned.

The Fandex already fixes alot of current issues for the Tyranids - such as being able to assault after DS'ing (tunnel, lictors), improving their reserves (the choice of adding the reserve bonus or not), handling transports (HG 30"), assaulting into terrain (Genestealer grenades), overall better survivability (dual-Catalyst (psy' beacon), 5++ saves, more primes for wound allocations), and so forth!

So... why not fix all the issues, as long as it doesn't overpower the codex?

Well I guess most of our work is done then? I can't think of much else. I did have one small thought: since we have hormagons and tervigons, I was wondering if it would be too imba to unlock Gargoyles as Troops if you took a Flyrant. Perhaps 1 squad per Flyrant? Just a thought.

Otherwise, great job so far dudes.

Yeah we're pretty much done... but I do like the Flyrant/Gargoyle idea - very good! I think I'll add that one.