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Pyrovores could be a litle bit useful vs Hammernators. They have Str 8, which IDs the Pyrovore and could activate the explosive.

Ok, more Pyrovore stuff - I made it so that the Nid player can choose to link the brood's shots into 1 template, adding +1S for each Pyrovore after the first and rerolling failed wounds. I'm probably going to have to move them back to Elites though because there's nothing "fast" about them now.

Just updated the Elites section of my fandex on p.1 of this thread.


Changes made:
- Got rid of the Hive Guard's 3+ save and reduced cost down to 55pts
- Modified lictor special rules slightly
- Increased the cost for the Doom to 120pts
- Modified pyrovore rules slightly

Ok, it's finally here!

V1.2 is now available for download!!!

I've fixed a lot of the mistakes from the previous releases (both major and minor) while fiddling with the rules as per your suggestions. Of course, suggestions for improvement are still welcome and appreciated.

Under Zoanthropes:

"One Zoanthrope may be upload to The Doom of Malan'tai"
Methinks you mean upgraded.

Genestealers:
Is there a reason you have the Scything Talons and the AG/TS in separate sections? "All Genestealers in the brood may take" vs "The entire brood may take"?
If it's because of Broodlord vs normal GS, the Scything Talons option is the same cost on both.

On Warriors - remove Reinforced Chitin, drop to 2W, add EW. The 5 Toughness is just amazing, and a no brainer at 10 points per model... it'd be worth just removing the option and giving another way to survive.

For the Genestealers, the current codex does the same. It allows the genestealers to take ST. It allows the broodlord to take the cheap upgrade, while the Stealers don't, to keep it cheap, or keep the broodlord with just RC.

rigeld2 wrote:Under Zoanthropes:

"One Zoanthrope may be upload to The Doom of Malan'tai"
Methinks you mean upgraded.

Dammit.

rigeld2 wrote:On Warriors - remove Reinforced Chitin, drop to 2W, add EW. The 5 Toughness is just amazing, and a no brainer at 10 points per model... it'd be worth just removing the option and giving another way to survive.

A Tyrant can cast Hive Will on them to give them EW, so it makes there be a dependency there. Making them all T5 will add up pretty quick too, especially if they give them any other upgrades.

As I posted on the last page:

Lets mathammer this a little bit.
We'll give the warriors Reinforced Chitin, Warp Shield, and Rending Claws - 50 points per model.

4 warriors charge 5 TH/SS termis.

Warriors swing first. 16 attacks that hit on 3+, ~11 hit (after ST reroll), 1 rend, 5 wounds, (assuming rolling poorly on saves) 1.3 die.
6 attacks back, 3 hit, 2 wound, 1.3 wounds caused.

So you've got the equivilant killing power, and *3* times the wounds, as an elite choice that is one of the best CC units in the game.
Dropping them back down to a 4 toughness with EW brings it much more in line.

Maybe I'll cut out a wound then, or make it 15 points for +1T?

Deadshot wrote:For the Genestealers, the current codex does the same. It allows the genestealers to take ST. It allows the broodlord to take the cheap upgrade, while the Stealers don't, to keep it cheap, or keep the broodlord with just RC.

Oh... right.

Ok, here is my critique of v1.2. Basically, I will just be going off the fandex independent of other's comments. Thus, if my views coincide with theirs, then consider it reinforcement. This way, you will have several different viewpoints and can choose whichever you like, if you like any, that is.

If I don't mention anything about a unit/special rule, that means I think it is ok and doesn't really need a fix/change.


---------------------------------------------------


Genestealers:
They're in the Walls! - Honestly, I'm not a big fan of making this mandatory on stealers. I like it more as an option so that people who just want cheap but a lot stealers - people who don't care for their upgrades - can still do so. I have no problem with making them mandatory on elite units such as ymgarls, but for basic stealers, I prefer it as an option so that people who are low on points can still maximize the number of stealers in their army without having to pay the price for upgrades that they may not necessarily need or want.


Lictor:
Chameleonic Skin - I'm not a big fan of the "may deploy anywhere on the board" clause. The ability to assault right away after coming in from reserves is a very powerful tool. It is balanced out by having limited places to place the lictor. I'm ok with putting it within 3" of a piece of terrain if there is no area terrain for it to go in (and with a restriction), but not anywhere on the board. Why is their special rule so much better than that of, say, ymgarl genestealers? Because they don't have to declare which terrain piece they will be coming from. I would make the following changes to this special rule:

"When they arrive, they must be be placed in area terrain, at least 1" away from an enemy model. If this is not possible, then they must be deployed within 3" of any terrain piece, however, by doing so, they may not assault on the turn they come in as they have lost the element of surprise coming out in the open."

This is not so bad of a trade-off. If for some very rare chance that all the area terrain on the board is filled up, at least they won't die due to not having a place to deploy in. However, they shouldn't be rewarded by still being able to assault when coming out in the open.

Pheromone Trail - Does the lictor have to already be on the board at the beginning of the turn for it to act as a tyranid teleport homer? In order to remain consistent with all the other codices, I think it should. Otherwise, if it acts as a homer even on the turn that it comes in from reserves, then I think it's points need to go up some.


Harpy:
Spore Seeding - By allowing the harpy to place the spore mines anywhere within 6" of it while it is moving, I think you've made it too strong. It's one thing to let it drop unlimited spore spines as opposed to just 1/game as in the original codex, but now you've also increased its range/reach substantially. IMO, you should make this rule consistent with those of other similar "drop-off" units such as vendettas, stormravens, reaver jetbikes and the original harpy - you can pick any unit or point along the path that the harpy flies over and then deepstrike the spore mines onto that point.

I know 12" is really a limited range to go on a bombing run. My solution to that was to let the harpy make a 1/game 24" move. This also gives it a better chance to contest late game objectives (see my version of the Harpy under Fast Attack on p.2 of this thread). Just a thought.


Pyrovore:
Volatile - I really don't see why vehicles should suffer a glancing hit on a 5+, not when the explosion is only S4. Just like biovore spore mines can't really do much to vehicles. Vehicles should just suffer a S4 hit like any other unit. At the very best, I'd give you vehicles suffer a glancing hit on a 6 to represent the chance for a lucky explosion, but this glancing vehicle rules just seems like a band-aid job to make the pyrovore a somewhat better suicide flamer.

Chained Fire - Ok. While I like your attempt to simplify the weapon, I don't really see much of an incentive to combine fire. It's much better to fire 3 12" S5 AP3 templates than just 1 12" S7 AP3 template. S7 is just not good enough to really damage vehicles and against MEQ's, there's not really a big difference between S5 and S7. But honestly, I think a AP3 template with 12" is just too strong. I think it'll be more balanced if you either decrease the base S to 4 or initial range to 6" and gradually increase both with more models in the brood. My recommendation:

Flamespurt Range 6" Template*, S4**, AP3, Assault 1

* Range +6" per pyrovore after the 1st in the brood
** +1S pyrovore after the 1st in the brood



More to come later....

I don't really have a problem with making assault grenades automatic on Genestealers. Who is not going to take assault grenades on Genestealers? It's automatic on Marines, so it's not like there's not precedent.

The reason for the Genestealer change was because they don't really have anything that resembles "frag spines". However, we could always just make a new biomorph that does the same thing...

Agreed about the Pyrovore. 1 S7 template vs 3 S5 didn't seem like a good trade-off, but an 18" S7 flame template seems too good at the same time. Then again, they are competing with Hive Guard again...

NeutronPoison wrote:I don't really have a problem with making assault grenades automatic on Genestealers. Who is not going to take assault grenades on Genestealers? It's automatic on Marines, so it's not like there's not precedent.

While I agree that assault grenades are good, not everyone may need or even want them. Because after you throw in toxin sacs, they become a very expensive 18pts for just a 5+ model. My philosophy is that the troops should be made as cheap as possible so that you can run as much of them as possible. That's what GW has been doing in all the newer codices. They're encouraging a more troopcentric build either by making all the troops (well, most of them anyways) cheaper or by giving them more stuff without a significant cost increase. While they kept genestealers at about the same price as 4th edition nids, GW did give them from infiltrate to give them more value.

But honestly, this is a matter of preference. My preference is to make it an option to keep base costs low.

BTW, just because it is automatic on marines doesn't mean stealers should have them. Heck, stealers are rending. Why not use that as precedent to give marines rending attacks also?

Andilus Greatsword wrote:The reason for the Genestealer change was because they don't really have anything that resembles "frag spines". However, we could always just make a new biomorph that does the same thing...

Yeah, you could rename their "frag spines". The new "frag spines" used to be the old "flesh hooks", but now flesh hooks are taken by lictors. Maybe call it flesh spines? Lol. Time to get creative.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Agreed about the Pyrovore. 1 S7 template vs 3 S5 didn't seem like a good trade-off, but an 18" S7 flame template seems too good at the same time. Then again, they are competing with Hive Guard again...

Yeah, that is really strong, which is why I think you should lower the range and strength of the template. Think about it. Just 1 pyrovore (about 50pts, I think) can potentially wipe out an entire 170pt tact squad with its 12" S5 AP3 shot if they are bunched up (i.e. just disembarked from their transport). MEQ players are going to be crying cheese! Then imagine Grey Knight players losing their 300pt purifier squad (after disembarking from a transport) from just 1 pyrovore!

My recommendations:

1) Start off at S4 only and 6" range, and increase from there.

or

2) You can use your original flamespurt rules, but change it to S6, AP4. Why is this good? Because you can scale it up to S8. Now you can hurt vehicles, deny FNP and insta-gib paladins, nobs and tyranid warriors. At the same time, it won't seem as overpowering against MEQ, which is the majority of players out there, because they still have a chance to survive. Personally, I like this idea much better, which is why I kept my version of Chained Fire to AP4.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Continued review of fandex v1.2.


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Hive Tyrant:
Predictive Fighters - This needs to go up in costs significantly and I will tell you why. Once you get to WS9, MEQ's are hitting you on 5's. That is much better than +1I, +1BS or +1S. I think you should price it at +15pts.

BTW, under Reinforced Chitin, you wrote down +1S. You need to change it to +1T.

Also, symbiote rippers, which give you +D6 S3 attacks, should be more expensive. I'd say at least +15pts because they are using the Tyrant's WS8 and hitting on 3's.


Swarmlord: Good.


Tervigon: Good. Take a look at my special rule for the tervigon. I think it's worth a consideration.

Psychic Beacon . . . . . +50pts (I priced it based on the Epistolary librarian and Grey Knight Mastery Level 3)

This particular tervigon resonates the power of the Hive Mind very strongly. In game terms, the tervigon is a very strong psyker.

The tervigon may cast 2 psychic powers on the tyranid player's turn. It may cast the same power twice or 2 different powers.


Hormagon: Good. See tervigon above.


Tyranid Prime: Good.


Parasite of Mortrex: Good.


----------------------------------------------------------


Hive Guard: I feel that the no cover save (except from wargear/special rule) from the Impaler Cannon makes it a little too strong. If it were me, I would just leave the fineprint the same as that in the original codex. But I understand that you are probably getting this rule based off of the FAQ for the Tau SMS.


Venomthrope: Good.


Lictor: I like the fact that the Deathleaper is an upgrade character. I also like the fact that you made them separate units. However, see above for my views on Chameleonic Skin and Pheromone Trail.


Deathleaper: Good. I recommend that you put an exception to the normal Chameleonic Skin (I call it the Deathleaper Chameleonic Skin...I know, shocking originality, right? ).

Deathleaper Chameleonic Skin: This works exactly like the Chameleonic Skin of normal lictors, with the exception that the Deathleaper may be placed anywhere on the board and not just in area terrain.


Ymgarl Genestealer Brood: Good. As a matter of fact, I'm going to change the points cost of my ymgarls to match yours.


Zoanthrope: Good. I like those independent zoans.


Doom of Malan'tai: Good move in making the Doom and upgrade character.


Pyrovore: See flamespurt above.

As always, lots of good points jy2. I'll go about implementing them tomorrow though, right now I'm tired. Methinks it's bedtime.

Continued review of fandex v1.2.


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Tyranid Warrior:
I don't like the idea of making them Eternal Warriors, not when you have Hive Will available. Besides, what's the justification of making a troop choice EW when even the HQ's aren't EW. Keeping them at 3W is fine, though personally I changed mine to 2W (for 22pts, though I am thinking about changing mine back to 3W for 25pts). I do think, however, you should raise up Reinforced Chitin (+1T) to +15pts per. Making them T5 is huge as it negates the ID ability of the most common AT nowadays (missiles, meltas, hive guards, psyfleman, lances, lascannons, powerfists, etc.) as well as forcing MEQ's to wound them on 5's.


Mycetic Spore: Ok. Why is it Strength X? Seems like you have the wrong stats for it. The original mycetic spores had totally different stats. Might want to double-check that.


Genestealer Brood: See They're in the Walls! above. BTW, you can put scything talons under the same options as toxin sacs and adrenal glands (i.e. the entire brood may take: ).


Termagaunts: Good.


Hormagaunts: Good.


Ripper Swarms: Good.


----------------------------------------------------------


Tyranid Shrikes: See Tyranid Warriors above.


Raveners: Good. Consider giving them mutations as well and an option for some type of assault grenades (frag spines or whatever you would like to call it). My recommendations:

Frag Spines (or similar) . . . . . +5pts each
Enhanced Reflexes . . . . . +8pts each
Inhuman Strength . . . . . +8pts each
Reinforced Carapace . . . . . +10pts each


Sky-Slasher Brood: Good.


Harpy: See Spore Seeding above.


Red Terror: Good.


Spore Mine Clusters: Good.


----------------------------------------------------------


Biovores: Good.


Trygon: Good. I don't believe I see anything about the revised rules for Subterranean Assault in there.


Mawloc: Honestly, now that you've taken away the ability to get cover saves from his Terror from the Deep attack, I don't think you need to decrease his points. Without cover saves, he is actually a pretty good unit, especially with Hit & Run to get out of combat.


Carnifex: Better than before, but not quite there yet. I actually play-tested my carnifexes (using my 130pt carnies) and IMO, your 120pts per carnifex is too cheap. I even felt my 130pt carnifex was a little on the cheap side. 160pt dakkafexes? Hell, yeah! 150pt dakkafexes? I'd take 9 please. Even at I1, few people realize how tough and nasty a brood 3 carnifexes are, especially with crushing claws hitting at normal Init, T7, 2+ saves and Eternal Warrior from Hive Will. That is some nasty sh*t. 3 dakkafexes put up 36 twin-linked S6 shots. That's a lot of firepower.

IMO, the carnifex should be a minimum 130pts, maybe even 140pts. I think 120pts carnifexes will imbalance the game.

BTW, look out for my battle report coming soon.


Old One Eye: Good. For some overkill, might want to give him T7 and charge him 250pts. Just a thought, as he has almost all the mutations anyways.


Tyrannofex: Good.


----------------------------------------------------------


Hierodules: Good.


Malanthrope: Good.


Meiotic Spore: Good. BTW, I believe the original Meiotic Spore had T5.


Hierophant Bio-titan: Good.


Harridan: Good, though there may be some confusion with regard to the Flyer targeting rules and the Gargolye broods getting hit by blast weapons. I would add the following stipulation to the Harridan Flyer rules:

"In addition, the Harridan follows the rules for shooting as a Flyer and for being shot at, as detailed in the Apocalypse rulebook on p.94. If the Harridan is involved in an assault, then it can be fired upon as normal after it disengages from the assault until the beginning of the next Tyranid turn."

That means in the turn where it just finishes an assault, it can be fired upon normally and not as a flyer until the beginning of its next turn.

jy2 wrote:[ you can put scything talons under the same options as toxin sacs and adrenal glands (i.e. the entire brood may take: ).

Doing that, would mean the Broodlord would have to take them as well, or the Genestealers would have to take them, adding up the points, if the Broodlord does. This is the reason it is the way it is, here and in the GW dex.

Well, that is just plain weird. Why would Gw force the BL to take TS and/or AG if the entire brood takes it, but not scything talons? If that was the case, then GW should've just let the BL take talons, TS and AG separately from the brood. Methinks the writers were smelling 1 paint point too many.

Just wondering why the Carnifex was lowered to BS 2? I assume it was to prevent Dakkafex abuse with the lower cost, but people will just run CC Fexes instead. I can tell you that 155 points for Mace Tail, Frag Spines, Tusked, and 2 sets of Scything Talons seems a little rich. That's 7 S9 hits on the charge, re-rolling all misses. Frags aren't even really a necessary option with I3 and Eternal Warrior; nothing would be able to do much before Mr. Carnie hits back and pounds everyone into the dust.

I mean, yeah, they're slow, but attach a Prime and you have a ridiculously hard hitting CC unit; coupled with Eternal Warrior from a Tyrant, and I smell a bit of a problem.

Just my 2 cents.

I think Hive Tyrants having an upgrade to WS 9 for only 5 points is a bit undercosted. In my mind that upgrade should at least cost 10 to 15 points as its definitely not a small upgrade.

Yeah, that could be bit problematic. I was really hoping for the Tyrant to return to BS 4, like the previous book. Was that too broken?

Also, I'm wondering about Raveners. I feel like they should either get access to Biomorphs like Toxin, Adrenal, etc., or have their price reduced a little, as I just can't see a reason to take them over Shrikes or Gargoyles, as Shrikes are waaay more killy, and Gargoyles are great as cheap screens, and are also nearly as good as Raveners in CC, when you consider that 1 Ravener with Rending Claws = 4 Gargs with Adrenal and Toxin. Thoughts?

Noted on the Raveners, I might lower their cost slightly and allow room for some upgrades. As for the BS things, you can just buy the upgrade for the Tyrant to give him BS4... I think I forgot to give that option to the Carnifex though. I'll add that in the next PDF.

Awesome. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I'm not familiar with PDFs... is there a way to change the file type, so I can alter it? I believe it's read only at the moment, unless I'm just really bad at using Acrobat.

IF you only have the Acrobat Reader, there's no edit functionality built in to it. PDF editing is not as straightforward as word document editing.

You can't edit it, but I can put up my word processor version of the Fandex if you'd like.

That would be great. I just want to tweak around some things.

Here you go, needs OpenOffice to open though (but you can download it for free here: www.openoffice.org).

Just a couple notes:
-The columns were done by making a chart and then turning it invisible - you might want to make them visible again temporarily if you change anything in them.
-The document uses the font from Quake, which you probably don't have; I would recommend selecting the whole document and changing the font to Times or Arial to make everything show up (this will probably screw up the formatting though... )

It works great man, thanks a lot!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok after theoryhammering a little, I have to agree with jy2 about the Carnifexes; 120 points is at least 20 points undercosted, maybe more.

A Dakkafex with Enhanced Senses is 160 points, which is a bit rich.

A CC fex with Crushing Claws, Scy Tal, Mace Tail, and Tusked, is 170 points, and has 8-10 attacks on the charge, re-rolling 1s to hit. Really disgusting when given EW via Hive Will.

Ok fair enough, I'll make them base 140 then. In any case that's not grossly overcosted as they are currently, and their upgrades aren't completely useless either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, I'm gonna give you a writing credit too.

Ahh, shucks. I'm just trying to help. Thanks.

140 seems perfect; definitely a viable alternative to Trygons, but not overpowering. By the way, I assume the 10 point increase on Trygons was for their ability to assault out of tunneling?