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My reasoning behind the Hive Node idea is that the lesser creatures are supposed to be mindless and acting out the will of the Hive Mind which is going to want it's will as enforced as possible. From a fluff perspective you don't hear of 'gants running away because they suffered casualties, they charge head on until the enemy is defeated or there aren't any of them left.

The Hive Node isn't enforced, it's an option that you can take should you choose to. You sacrifice the back up of having a shooting attack on the Spod if you take it and having the HN's area of effect lessened and with no SitW makes it fair in my opinion.

I agree that HTs etc shouldn't be able to be transported via the Spod though although a Prime in a squad of Warriors should be able too. I don't think it's necessary for the Parasite to be able to take a Spod as its got wings already.

This is pretty awesome so far, but I have one question as I read about the Hormagon:

Hormagons don't pass on Toxin Sacs or Adrenal Glands to Hormagaunts; was this intended? Or am I just missing the part where it clarifies this?

Ratius wrote:However, I still disagree with having unlimited units allowed to use it. Despite the rather downbeat reviews of the Nids codex they do have several options for getting troops around the board quickly and efficently - wings, pods, deepstrikes, run+fleet, infiltrate, Ymargls/Lictor special rules etc. To have what amounts to a deployment portal with 3 or 4 squads of tooled up Hormys or Warriors pour out with the ability to charge in addition to these is too overpowered. Again I'll reiterate, as a general you must use and adapt to the drawbacks in your army, adding in this tunnel removes a drawback. It means Nids have the potential to become hyper manouverable, something which they dont necessarly need due to the options listed above.

Isn't this essentially what a WWP does for DE? And you can't tell me they are slow.

Sorry, some confusion here on my part, are we saying only Primes have this ability or can HTs etc?
With Primes I could agree, however only if they are joined to a unit of Warriors. Maybe a nice compromise?

The Prime (and the Parasite of Mortrex) are the only ICs Tyranids have. Therefore the only thing this changes is the ability of those two units to join a unit in a Spore prior to the drop.

Probably meant to say light-medium. Vs Av10 you are penning on 4s with a Str of 6 (50% chance), AV11 it goes to 33% chance, still not too shoddy for a weapon with a template.
Vs side armor of your medium tanks (Razors, Chimeras etc), you can still pen/glance at 33%. Bascailly, I think the Nids in this new Fandex the Nids have a new decent number of anti armour abilities, I just dont see the Pyrovores role primarily as this. At str5 it gives him a little flexibility but not a huge amount. Str 6 is already instgibbing Eldar, IG and DE. Str 5 with Ap3 seems more balanced to me.

Str 6 vs AV 10 glances on a 4, not pens. I just feel like you're paying a lot of points for, essentially, a Heavy Flamer and iirc they're Str6/AP4. If I'm wrong then okay ignore me.

That wasnt my reading of the description. Yes, the spore does spawn from inside its body but its then placed within 2" which is clearly outside. In area terrain etc I think having the cover save is fair. Its analagous to throwing a hand grenade but it not going far enough, your fatigues wont protect you from it but maybe that nearby metal crate will.
Also if you arent in cover - well tough luck!

The wound isn't from the spore exploding, it's from the stress/biomass needed to produce the spore (my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see that giving a cover save.
If it exploded on a 1, then yeah - definitely a cover save.

I still dont understand this The rule says:

At the end of each player's turn, all enemy models
in base contact with a Tyranid with toxic miasma
suffer a wound on a 4+. Saves (but not cover
saves) may be taken as normal.

The only way you can be in btb contact is if you are engaged in hand to hand from the assault phase. The rules state 1" must be kept between all enemy models. Therefore the cover save line is superfluous?

Yes, the only way to be in btb combat is to be in a combat during the assault phase.
Wounds from Close Combat never allow cover saves. Wounds that happen outside of a Close Combat (stray blast markers, exploding vehicles) allow cover saves.
Since Toxic Miasma is not a Close Combat attack, it would normally allow cover saves. The comment in parenthesis is disallowing the cover saves.

I agree with you on the Lictor area terrain stuff.

I think the HN option removes the disadvantages of fearless for Nids. WE now have a trade off with more Synapse creatures/options vs the low Ld of things like Gaunts/Raveners etc.
Its a tactical trade off Nids players need to deal with and adapt to. I make a crass comparision but it would be like giving DE T4 all round, it removes a fundamental and very characterful "weakness" to the army.

The main disadvantage to fearless (indeed, the only one I can think of) relates to being in CC. First, you get No Retreat! wounds (which a higher LD wouldn't matter for) and second, you don't run away when it might be advantageous for (which, again, a higher LD wouldn't matter for). The only thing giving a higher LD does is reduce the amount of failed IB tests. To be honest, I would probably only ever buy it if I had points leftover after putting in everything else I wanted.
But I like that it's an option.

I think Ymgarls need to go up a point or two. A two point inc for frag spinces per model isnt enough. I still dont think they are ultra amazing but with their alter forms and other rules they are extremely strong. I would say around 28 might be fairer. Against your average trooper, they will hit and would on 3s (+1 str morph) with a potential to rend, go first and have 3 attacks on the charge. Next round they can go def with +1 T and a 4+ save. Quite hardy too.

I don't really disagree with this, but I dunno... We'll go with "Sure."

Quite concerned with the Red Terror.
As he stands he can hit on 3s, wound on 2s with 6 dice(on the charge) whilst rerolling those misses due to 2x SCs. That means his % chance to perform his swallow idea is quite high.
Think about him vs SM captains s4 t4, still hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, Eldar seers, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, instagibbing etc.
I think hes quite overpowered for a 150 point model in this respect. He could chompthrough your characters quite easily.
He could be amened to state his swallow cant be used vs anything with an inv save or reduce his WS so he needs to get quite lucky to get those 4 hits.

He should not be cheaper than the Mawloc. I'd call him a good deal at 180 points, with no other changes. He either deep strikes and gets shot at by everybody and their brother for a turn, or he runs up the board (very quickly, thanks to Fast, Fleet, Move through Cover (thanks to MC)) getting shot the whole time.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I'm just commenting on your thoughts. I've read the fandex a couple of times but have missed a lot of the things you caught... or you pointed them out first. No use pointing them out twice

Andilus - the Pyrovore is in FA now, but doesn't have anything to make it "fast" - we mentioned making it a Beast or giving it Fleet or some ability to shoot and run... did I just miss that in the fandex?

rigeld2 wrote:Andilus - the Pyrovore is in FA now, but doesn't have anything to make it "fast" - we mentioned making it a Beast or giving it Fleet or some ability to shoot and run... did I just miss that in the fandex?

Yeah no, at first I thought "well he can run anyway", but since then I've made the Pyrovore a little more capable in CC (added some Initiative and Attacks), so I gave them Fleet as well, but reduced the power of the Flamespurt. When I put up the next version of the Fandex they'll be different.


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Ratius wrote:

Um... what? No, there's really no other ways (besides adding wings) of getting the Prime up the table. Also, not being able to have an IC join a unit in a Spore is one of the "WTF?!" things from the FAQ.

Sorry, some confusion here on my part, are we saying only Primes have this ability or can HTs etc?
With Primes I could agree, however only if they are joined to a unit of Warriors. Maybe a nice compromise?

Already been said, but the only ICs in the army are Primes and the Parasite (and only the Primes can ride in Spore Pods).

I'm sorry - Strength 6 is reliable AT? Against medium armor?/

Ratius wrote:Quite concerned with the Red Terror.
As he stands he can hit on 3s, wound on 2s with 6 dice(on the charge) whilst rerolling those misses due to 2x SCs. That means his % chance to perform his swallow idea is quite high.
Think about him vs SM captains s4 t4, still hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, Eldar seers, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, instagibbing etc.
I think hes quite overpowered for a 150 point model in this respect. He could chompthrough your characters quite easily.
He could be amened to state his swallow cant be used vs anything with an inv save or reduce his WS so he needs to get quite lucky to get those 4 hits.

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too. A reduction to WS4 is probably in order.

Ratius wrote:

Heirodule Options:
May replace a single set of scything talons with:
-Two stranglethorn cannons . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .free
-Two Hierodule bio-cannons .

Clarification: Since he has two sets of scything talons this means he can have 4 bio cannons in total at assault 6. Thats 24 str 10 shots on a 600 point model? Even the Heirophant dosent put out that amount of firepower! Reduce it to a single biocannon per SC perhaps?

The rule says it may only replace a single set of talons with 2 Bio-cannons. So it will only have 12 S10 shots (which is still disgustingly good, but Hierophants have 16 S10 shots so...).


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odorofdeath wrote:This is pretty awesome so far, but I have one question as I read about the Hormagon:

Hormagons don't pass on Toxin Sacs or Adrenal Glands to Hormagaunts; was this intended? Or am I just missing the part where it clarifies this?

That's intentional, since Hormagaunts are better than Termagaunts in general so it's a bit of a balancing thing. Plus they're not really meant to hang around the Hormagon anyway like Termagaunts. If they benefited from its Adrenal Glands/Toxin Sacs I'd probably have to put its cost up.

Ah. Well groovy then. Thanks, and nice work on the 'dex, it's a nice alternative.

Ok, to the Warrior conundrum.
Not going to spend much time analysing their weaknesses/problems, I think its been covered well here and in other threads.
If Im reading things correctly their main issues revolve around being slightly over costed, a “jack of all trades master of none” unit, other units doing their perceived role better, lacking unit customisation.
I don’t buy into the whole Str8 instagib argument and never have. If playing tactically they should be behind cover for a save anyway, they aren’t huge models so they can be screened and can be given decent manoeuvrability options. Virtually every other troop option in the game can be instagibbed by str8, just because they have 3 wounds and are perceived to be underused should preclude them from any special treatment.

So here is how I propose to fix them (or at least start some discussion):
A. Allow them to take individual upgrades, not unit wide.
This allows them to dabble in wound allocation shenanigans similar to Nobs, Termies, Paladins etc. Whilst it wont solve the str8 problem it will make them much hardier vs other high str weapons. There has been the suggestion to raise their T to 5. I disagree with this however, mainly from a hth point of view. Very few standard troop choices have a T5 and giving them this makes them too strong vs other troops. MEQs are now wounding on 5s, GEQs mostly 6s and that powerfist now cant get that lucky instagib. Coupled with their already decent WS it makes them an exceptionally good hth unit if T5 is implemented. Whilst I acknowledge Nids should be hth orientated they have other purely dedicated hth fighter options and Warriors should not encroach on these roles.
I strongly disagree with the current reinforced chitin option especially with their current costs being lowered and it only costing 10 points per model. Coupled with the option for warp shield, we are not merely improving them we are overpowering them.
45 points now gets you a T5, 5++, 3W model that hits on 3s, can have rending in hth, will be hit back on 4s, is wounded on 5s or 6s depending on foe and has all the other basic options available to them (Synapse etc).
B. Give them a “mini Alpha Warrior” option where one warrior can take the RC option allowing them to survive that initial str8 hit. Sure vs str8 spam it wont make a huge difference but I’ve covered my feelings on that above.
C. Leave them as they are but reduce their points. We must bear in mind that Warriors are not that weak. They still have Synapse, SiTW, 3W, great weapon options, can shoot and charge, hold objectives well, join with an Alpha Prime to gain some bonuses and aren’t huge models so getting them cover/screens should be viable.
I would suggest if leaving them as is a cost of 20 points per model. That means you can get 5 for 100 points with no upgrades.
D. Leave them as they are in the current Nid codex but allow them only the additional Warp shield option for 10 points. This means they don’t gain anything hugely significant in terms of lethality but gives them that survivability option. They are still Str4, I4, BS3 which is the basic statline for many standard troop choices. You still however are paying some points for an upgraded unit. 30+10+5 (say for AGs)+perhaps a spore for transport.

We must take all the changes we make in the context not only of the current meta that is bound to change and evolve but on a long term balance/gameplay view. Making constant comparisons and contrasts to other armies troop units is key here I feel.

I hope my thoughts get some ideas going and by no means mean these to be hard and fast rules. A lot Playtesting and theorycrafting is obviously still required!

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, I'm just commenting on your thoughts. I've read the fandex a couple of times but have missed a lot of the things you caught... or you pointed them out first. No use pointing them out twice

No offense taken at all
The only way we're going to get this baby worked out with the best possible result is through bouncing ideas off each other, constructive criticism and analysis and good old thrashing things out!

Andulis - points noted.
I would consider Rigs idea though of making the Pyrovore a beast but keeping its original hth statline, we dont want him to be too flexible, having one or two specialised units is needed in every codex too. Giving him a hth ability might be a touch OTT? As it stands I think hes now a great troop killer with a minor ability to take out light vehicles.

Ratius wrote:I don’t buy into the whole Str8 instagib argument and never have. If playing tactically they should be behind cover for a save anyway, they aren’t huge models so they can be screened and can be given decent manoeuvrability options. Virtually every other troop option in the game can be instagibbed by str8, just because they have 3 wounds and are perceived to be underused should preclude them from any special treatment.

I'm only going to address this because, really, unless we can see eye to eye on this point, the rest doesn't matter and we'll always argue over it

So essentially you're saying they should always have a 4++ save outside of close combat (cover save) because of movement, and that the fact you're paying for 3 wounds, but only really get one when hit with long range weaponry (because regardless of what you're experiencing, the majority of armies out there mech up... which means that opponents have to have Str8+ weapons to deal with all that armor) is okay?

I just don't see how T5, 5++, 3W is overpowered - maybe in CC it'd be really strong, but aren't Tyranids supposed to be a scary CC army? For 40 points, SM gets a 1 wound, 2+/3++, 2A, Str8 (in CC) model...

Lets mathammer this a little bit.
We'll give the warriors Reinforced Chitin, Warp Shield, and Rending Claws - 50 points per model.

4 warriors charge 5 TH/SS termis.

Warriors swing first. 16 attacks that hit on 3+, ~11 hit (after ST reroll), 1 rend, 5 wounds, (assuming rolling poorly on saves) 1.3 die.
6 attacks back, 3 hit, 2 wound, 1.3 wounds caused.

Hrm. Yeah, that is pretty strong. Drop the T back down to 4 (like you suggested) and it'd be

Warriors with Warp Shield, and Rending Claws. 5 charge 5 TH/SS termis.

Warriors swing first. 20 attacks that hit on a 3+, 13 hit, 1.11 rends (1), 5.55 wound (6).
.92 normal saves failed, .74 rend saves failed - 2 wounds, 2 dead models.

Termis swing back, 6 attacks, 3 hit, 2 wound, 1.3 dead models.

Warriors win combat. I've changed my mind. We don't need all the nifty mutations, we just need a better save on the warriors and a reduction in cost. Either a 5++ or a 2+ would work, preferably the 5++. They don't even need Eternal Warrior like I was thinking (indeed, it'd have a similar effect on CC warriors that a 5 toughness did).

This doesn't address any weaknesses they may have outside of CC - I didn't count Devourer attacks because in the first scenario they didn't have them, and in the second the shooting would have killed zero models. (15 dice, 8 hit, 2 wound, both saved). They do need a way to get up the board quickly - maybe Move Through Cover? Because while they are decent in combat, it can be difficult to get them there. Maybe I'm biased because I play against Space Wolves a lot, but krak missles absolutely destroy my warriors any time I field them... either as shooty or as CC, and I'm rarely without a cover save with them.

Good post Rig, Im useless at mathammer Im afraid but always see the benefit of it and seeing things laid out like this is always helpful.
Based on your last points I think option D above is the one that we might agree on (subject to more rigorous mathammer and playtesting).

To answer your initial point succintly: Yes, I do think its ok that the 3W model will effectibvely only have one save vs str8
The problem I feel is that the whole str8 vs warriors has almost become an unconsious bugbear with people here on dakka and perhaps elsewhere. Remember with a balanced list your opponent wont just have to focus his str8 on the Warriors, there could be a literal myraid of other targets out there. Taking it in isolation, then yes they get the hurt put on them but no game or even series of games can be taken in isolation. Hence why I said good use of terrain/screening/podding etc can mitigate the nastiness of str8. I fully acknowledge due to terrain styles, mistakes or down right bad luck they may suffer but for the sake of game and overall codex balance T5 for me is still too strong, especially as it stands where you can take T5+ WS add a Prime etc etc.
Remember also, in your example you are against an elite unit of which (in most armies) there can only be 3 thereof.
Warriors are troops, they are supposed to be good but not absolutely lethal.
Can you mathammer out vs a tac squad, wiches, storm guardians for interest?

Ok, here are my comments/critiques of Andilus' fandex, v1.1.

Please note that while I have given a cursory glance over some of the comments by others, I have not reviewed them in depth. So probably some of my comments/opinions will coincide with theirs or maybe go against them. Also, some of my opinions may have already been resolved by other's comments. If so, then I apologize in advance. My reasons for purposefully "ignoring" other people's comments for now is so that I can give a fresh perspective unbaised by other's. If my ideas coincide with others, then consider it reinforcement to their ideas. If it contradicts their ideas, then decide however you want in terms of whether you want to change a rule or not.

My main viewpoint will be from the perspective of game balance and clarifications.


-----------------------------------------------------


Harpy Spore Seeding - In the original codex, this was a 1/game power. Now it appears that you have gave it unlimited usage. If so, IMO the cost needs to raised slightly. Maybe +10pts.


Old One Eye Rapid Regeneration - I like the coming-back-to-life special amendment. However, I'd leave him with just 1W when he comes back because each turn, he still has a chance to get back more wounds on 5's and 6's. Besides, a monster that can potentially come back to life and with 3W may be too hard to kill.


Hive Will - I like it! My only opinion is that you shouldn't make it so easily available to too many Tyranid HQ's. I would only give it the the Hive Tyrants or special characters. My idea is that the tervigons/hormagons are FNP gaunt-spawning factories while the hive tyrants are the ones that drive the tyranid units to fight until they die and then some.


Impaler Cannon - This rule needs a little clarification. From your RAW, that would mean that vehicles in area terrain get cover even when they normally shouldn't? Also, as it is worded in the fandex, smoke screens, KFF, disruption pods, stormcaller, shield of sanguinius, etc. won't provide cover unless you're in area terrain.


Crushing Claws - There is no actual incentive to take this upgrade. The average number of attacks (for D6+1) is 4.5, or 5.5 on the charge. The base carnifex gets 4 attacks, or 5 on the charge. However, the base carnifex gets re-rolls to hit due to scything talons. Thus, while the average crushing claw carnifex will hit 2.25 times (slightly more if it had 1 pair of scything talons), the base carnifex would hit 3 times.

I actually like the existing Crushing Claws rule better. 4 attacks +D3 attacks gives you an average of 5.5 attacks normally or 6.5 attacks on the charge.


Lash Whips - Don't forget to add "....with -1 Attack (to a minimum of 1 Attack) until...."


Hive Node - I like it.


Regeneration - Interesting concept - a poor man's We'll Be Back. Honestly, I don't feel too comfortable about giving all TMC's a chance to come back to life, but with only a 1 in 6 chance to do so, it isn't so bad. I can live with it.


Spore Cysts - IMO, it takes some effort for the unit to expel the spore cysts, especially if it can still shoot afterwards. I would recommend changing the timing of this to "in the Movement Phase before it has moved." Just like a Tervigon/hormagon spawning some gaunts but in this case, the unit is spawning some spore mines.


Synapse Node - Honestly, I don't like this rule. One of the strategically limitations of the tyranid army is that you always have to watch out for Synapse. You need to always consider your sources for synapse when playing nids. Making mycetic spores synaptic makes it just too easy. It just takes out that strategic element from the tyranid army. Now there is no concern for synapse at all. There is no concern for tactical play when you are going all-reserves. Having enough synapse should be an integral part of tyranid tactical play. This upgrade, while you have to pay for it, just makes synapse a non-issue almost. It just takes out some of the tactical challenge of playing nids.


Tail Weapons - The original tail weapons had a restriction and that is if the carnifex was in base with at least 5 enemy models. While I like the simplication of this new rule, the scythe tail should definitely be more expensive. For 15pts, you get potentially +3A striking at regular Init? I'd say this is the equivalent of the current Crushing Claws, but at half strength and regular init. I would cost out the scythe tail at +20-25 pts.


-----------------------------------------------------


Ok, that's it for now. I will review the rest of the codex later when I have more time.

Ratius wrote:Can you mathammer out vs a tac squad, wiches, storm guardians for interest?

NOTE: My numbers were incorrect before - the TH/SS termis will win the second combat 3 or 4 wounds to 2, causing 1 or 2 fearless wounds.

Tac squad - meltagun and sergeant has storm bolter and power weapon.

Warriors charge 10 marines.

Warriors swing. 20 attacks that hit on a 3+, 13 hit, 1.11 rends (1), 5.55 wound (6).
Rend auto wounds, 1.8 normal attacks wound, total of 2.9 (3) wounds, 3 models removed.

Tac Squads swing at the same time. 9 attacks from the normal marines, 4.5 hit, 2.25 wound (2).
Sarge swings twice, hits once, wounds on a 2+ (.83 wounds). One ID hit, .33 saves, ID drops a warrior.
2 wounds, 1 save, 1 wound is allocated.

Tac squads 4 to 3. 1 fearless wound, one warrior is down to 1 wound.

Note that this doesn't take space marine Combat Tactics into effect - they can get some seriously cool stuff from that.

It also doesn't count the shooting from either side. 5 devourers, 15 shots, 8 hit, 3 wound, 2 save. Stupid SM rapid fires, 16 bolter shots, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 save. 1 melta hit, 1 wound, Str8 means one dead warrior. (he shoulda charged instead of rapid firing, but ah well).

16 attacks, 11 hit, 1 rend, 4 wounds.
1 failed save, 1 rend wound - 2 models dead.

6 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 gets through.
Sarge: 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound, 1 ID.

Tac squad wins 4 to 2. 1 fearless wound - might end up killing another warrior (between shooting, CC and fearless checks)

It's even worse when the tac squad decides to charge instead of rapid fire. Shooting changes to 9 bolter shots, 5 hit, 3 wound, 2 save. Melta doesn't change.

Tac squad charged, 19 attacks, 9 hits, 5 wounds, 3 save - 2 wounds. Sarge doesn't change. Tac squad wins 5 to 2.

Maybe drop to 2W, but add eternal warrior?

Comments on fandex, v1.1 continued....


--------------------------------------------------


HQ
Hive Tyrant - The changes are for the most part, alright. However, I think the prices need to be reworked slightly. While 145pts for the tyrant with Warp Shield is ok, now you've also given him Hive Will...basically for free. I think that should increase his cost. +25pts is a fair price for this powerful psychic power, because we all know everyone will take it.

Also, one thing about the mutations/wargear is that you should take into consideration other codices. While the price of the mutations is fair on normal units, on multi-wound monstrous creatures, it should definitely go up. For example, Unholy Might (+1S) for daemon MC's cost 15-20pts. Wings for daemon princes (not the under-costed Chaos Marine version) cost 60pts and for dreadknights, 70pts. IMO, a fair "discounted" price for tyrant wings would be 50pts. Enhanced Senses and Reflexes is fair, but I think Inhuman Strength should be +15pts.


Swarmlord - As he is a hive tyrant, you may want to consider giving him Hive Will as well and adjust his price in proportion to how much you will be charging the tyrant.


Tyrant Guards - Good.


Tervigon - Points and statwise, he is good. I would prefer Hive Will to be the exclusive domain of tyrants and/or special tyranid creatures (i.e. Swarmlord). However, it is fairly priced in this case so if you really want it for the tervigons/hormagons, then I won't complain.

Also, you might want to add the amendment that tervigons can be taken troops with the purchase of termagants (on a 1-to-1 unit basis).


Hormagon - This unit is fair. Is it on purpose that the spawned hormagants don't get to use the hormagon's adrenal glands and toxin sacs? And will the hormagaunts also get counter-attack like their cousins? Finally, can the hormagon be taken as a troop choice if you also take 1 unit of hormagaunts? If you've already answered this question before, then I apologize for overlooking it.


Tyranid Prime - Good.


Parasite of Mortrex - Good.


--------------------------------------------------


Elite
Hive Guard - Good. Just need to clarify the Impaler Cannon rules in regards to cover.


Venomthrope - Good.


Lictor - Good.


Deathleaper - Good.


Ymgarl Genestealers - Good.


Zoanthrope - Good. I like the fact that they can now split up into separate units. My question is that if they take a mycetic spore, can they still split up? According to the FAQ, any unit that takes a spore must all come in via the spore. Thus, if you don't amend the FAQ, then the unit cannot split up if it takes a spore.


Doom of Malan'tai - Good. I like the idea of making him an upgrade character rather than as a separate unit that takes up its own FOC.



To be continued....

Meaning this in the nicest way, JY2 but we have significant changes since Fandex 1.1.

We need to review All of these and discuss to proceed



Automatically Appended Next Post:
FD 1.1 is almost defunct - assuming we're open to changes?

Ratius wrote:Meaning this in the nicest way, JY2 but we have significant changes since Fandex 1.1.

We need to review All of these and discuss to proceed

FD 1.1 is almost defunct - assuming we're open to changes?

Yeah, I'm still accepting changes, and Jy2 has brought up different issues, while covering only a couple that have been addressed.

Ratius wrote:I would consider Rigs idea though of making the Pyrovore a beast but keeping its original hth statline, we dont want him to be too flexible, having one or two specialised units is needed in every codex too. Giving him a hth ability might be a touch OTT? As it stands I think hes now a great troop killer with a minor ability to take out light vehicles.

...That's a good idea actually. Will do!

jy2 wrote:Old One Eye Rapid Regeneration - I like the coming-back-to-life special amendment. However, I'd leave him with just 1W when he comes back because each turn, he still has a chance to get back more wounds on 5's and 6's. Besides, a monster that can potentially come back to life and with 3W may be too hard to kill.

That's a really good point, and I'll clarify that he may not regenerate any more wounds until the following turn, unless he is killed again.

jy2 wrote:Hive Will - I like it! My only opinion is that you shouldn't make it so easily available to too many Tyranid HQ's. I would only give it the the Hive Tyrants or special characters. My idea is that the tervigons/hormagons are FNP gaunt-spawning factories while the hive tyrants are the ones that drive the tyranid units to fight until they die and then some.

Yeah I'm going to limit it to Tyrants/Swarmlord.

jy2 wrote:Crushing Claws - There is no actual incentive to take this upgrade. The average number of attacks (for D6+1) is 4.5, or 5.5 on the charge. The base carnifex gets 4 attacks, or 5 on the charge. However, the base carnifex gets re-rolls to hit due to scything talons. Thus, while the average crushing claw carnifex will hit 2.25 times (slightly more if it had 1 pair of scything talons), the base carnifex would hit 3 times.

I actually like the existing Crushing Claws rule better. 4 attacks +D3 attacks gives you an average of 5.5 attacks normally or 6.5 attacks on the charge.

Hmm ok then +D3 attacks at regular initiative, maybe with a reroll to wound to give it a bit more incentive?

jy2 wrote:Lash Whips - Don't forget to add "....with -1 Attack (to a minimum of 1 Attack) until...."

So I1 and -1A? I would hate to be on the other end of that!

jy2 wrote:Synapse Node - Honestly, I don't like this rule. One of the strategically limitations of the tyranid army is that you always have to watch out for Synapse. You need to always consider your sources for synapse when playing nids. Making mycetic spores synaptic makes it just too easy. It just takes out that strategic element from the tyranid army. Now there is no concern for synapse at all. There is no concern for tactical play when you are going all-reserves. Having enough synapse should be an integral part of tyranid tactical play. This upgrade, while you have to pay for it, just makes synapse a non-issue almost. It just takes out some of the tactical challenge of playing nids.

This is true and being brought up by a couple other comments. Maybe I could limit it a bit more, maybe to a 6" range or that it only works for 1 turn or something.

jy2 wrote:Hormagon - This unit is fair. Is it on purpose that the spawned hormagants don't get to use the hormagon's adrenal glands and toxin sacs? And will the hormagaunts also get counter-attack like their cousins? Finally, can the hormagon be taken as a troop choice if you also take 1 unit of hormagaunts? If you've already answered this question before, then I apologize for overlooking it.

The Tervigon/Hormagon as troops thing is covered under the Termagaunt/Hormagaunt section. As for the adrenal glands/toxin sacs thing, yes it's intentional that the Hormagaunts can't use them. Currently they won't get counter-attack either since they're supposed to charge forward from the Hormagon, but if you think this should be changed then I can do that. Mostly just to keep things fair since Hormagaunts are better than Termagaunts in general.

jy2 wrote:Zoanthrope - Good. I like the fact that they can now split up into separate units. My question is that if they take a mycetic spore, can they still split up? According to the FAQ, any unit that takes a spore must all come in via the spore. Thus, if you don't amend the FAQ, then the unit cannot split up if it takes a spore.

The way I intend it, they can be split up, but if they do then only one group can take a Spore. So if they split into a group of 2 and 1, then only one of those groups would get to ride the Spore. I can make an amendment on the FAQ if necessary however.

Also, I've pretty much overhauled the mutations system, so it's priced more fairly now and allows for more customization for most of the units.

Ratius wrote:Meaning this in the nicest way, JY2 but we have significant changes since Fandex 1.1.

We need to review All of these and discuss to proceed



Automatically Appended Next Post:
FD 1.1 is almost defunct - assuming we're open to changes?

First off, I'd like to start off by saying that there are a lot of very good ideas here in this thread. And while this is not my thread, I would like to thank everyone for their involvement and contributions to this thread.

Though the group has discussed much since v1.1 came out, v1.2 hasn't yet come out so there is still time for me to put in my 2 cents into 1.1. Besides, I offer a lot of ideas that I haven't seen here yet. Some may have already been discussed (i.e. Swarmlord with Hive Will) and/or clarified (i.e. hormagon and its relationships with hormagaunts), and my ideas just goes to reinforce these changes/clarifications. But a lot of my ideas are fresh.

Also, my critique is mainly on the author's work here first and foremost. Afterwards, then I will comment on the suggestions by the other authors in this thread.

Andilus Greatsword wrote: Yeah, I'm still accepting changes, and Jy2 has brought up different issues, while covering only a couple that have been addressed.

Sorry that I'm somewhat lagging, but I've got a lot going on right now, both workwise and hobbywise. This thread has got me thinking about doing a fandex for Chaos Daemons as well. I will try to finish my analysis by tomorrow.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

jy2 wrote:Crushing Claws - There is no actual incentive to take this upgrade. The average number of attacks (for D6+1) is 4.5, or 5.5 on the charge. The base carnifex gets 4 attacks, or 5 on the charge. However, the base carnifex gets re-rolls to hit due to scything talons. Thus, while the average crushing claw carnifex will hit 2.25 times (slightly more if it had 1 pair of scything talons), the base carnifex would hit 3 times.

I actually like the existing Crushing Claws rule better. 4 attacks +D3 attacks gives you an average of 5.5 attacks normally or 6.5 attacks on the charge.

Hmm ok then +D3 attacks at regular initiative, maybe with a reroll to wound to give it a bit more incentive?

Re-rolls to wound isn't necessary. Just being able to strike at regular initiative is incentive enough to get the upgrade. I mean, a furiously charging clawed, tusked, scythed-tailed carnifex with 12 attacks hitting on I4? That's scary.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

jy2 wrote:Lash Whips - Don't forget to add "....with -1 Attack (to a minimum of 1 Attack) until...."

So I1 and -1A? I would hate to be on the other end of that!

No, it's still I1 or -1A. However, if you choose the -1A, the target still has a minimum of 1A.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:The Tervigon/Hormagon as troops thing is covered under the Termagaunt/Hormagaunt section. As for the adrenal glands/toxin sacs thing, yes it's intentional that the Hormagaunts can't use them. Currently they won't get counter-attack either since they're supposed to charge forward from the Hormagon, but if you think this should be changed then I can do that. Mostly just to keep things fair since Hormagaunts are better than Termagaunts in general.

Gotcha! No, just keep it as it is. It's more balanced that way.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

jy2 wrote:Zoanthrope - Good. I like the fact that they can now split up into separate units. My question is that if they take a mycetic spore, can they still split up? According to the FAQ, any unit that takes a spore must all come in via the spore. Thus, if you don't amend the FAQ, then the unit cannot split up if it takes a spore.

The way I intend it, they can be split up, but if they do then only one group can take a Spore. So if they split into a group of 2 and 1, then only one of those groups would get to ride the Spore. I can make an amendment on the FAQ if necessary however.

Cool. Then you may want to clarify it in the entry somehow. Otherwise, it causes a conflict with the FAQ (unless, of course, you amend the FAQ itself).

jy2 wrote:Sorry that I'm somewhat lagging, but I've got a lot going on right now, both workwise and hobbywise. This thread has got me thinking about doing a fandex for Chaos Daemons as well. I will try to finish my analysis by tomorrow.

That's alright, when you do give advice it is very good. I'd be very interested to see a Daemons fandex, I like seeing what people come up with when they make these things.

jy2 wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

jy2 wrote:Lash Whips - Don't forget to add "....with -1 Attack (to a minimum of 1 Attack) until...."

So I1 and -1A? I would hate to be on the other end of that!

No, it's still I1 or -1A. However, if you choose the -1A, the target still has a minimum of 1A.

Oh right, I forgot I changed what Lash Whips can do. And yeah, good point, because otherwise they'd be ridiculously good.

Comments on fandex, v1.1 continued....


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Troop
Ripper Swarm - Good. Yeah, that Mindless rule was lame.


Tyranid Warrior - Whoa, that's a lot of mutations there. I think you can lower the Extended Carapace to +10pts. Here, the best upgrade is Reinforced Chitin as it prevents them from getting ID'd from most of the weapons out there. If anything, that should be the most expensive upgrade. Still, I don't think any of the mutations should cost more than 10pts. You can probably drop Enhanced Senses because now that you can take up to 4 Tyranid Primes, they should always be using the BS of the Prime. You can also drop Enhanced Reflexes. With lash whips, who cares if the warriors are I4 or I5, their opponents will be I1.

I like the fact that you didn't turn this unit into a diversified, wound-shenanigans unit a la nobs, TWC and paladins. Really, we don't need to copy them. While the Hive Mind allows for mutations of species, it also requires order in the ranks for the units to unquestionably obey its will. The last thing the Hive Mind needs is chaos in the ranks as members of the unit mutate/develope a will to resist the Hive Mind's control.

Costs for all other wargear/options is fair.


Mycetic Spore - Good. I'm sure other people have pointed this out, but the unit needs a cost price. Also, I'm not terribly fond of Synapse Node on the Spore, but then I've already pointed that out earlier.


Genestealer Brood - Good. Cost is fair. Also, consider giving them 1 mutation - Extended Carapace (+1 SV) at +4pts per (+15pts for the Broodlord). In 4th ed. nids, they were able to take this upgrade.


Termagaunts - Ok. Personally, I would price the devourer at +3pts only (that's 1pt per shot ). I'm on the fence about the Enhanced Senses mutation. To me, termagaunts shouldn't be good shooters. To me, BS4 is if you stand still and take the time to aim. Termagants should be constantly advancing and spraying with their guns, trying to overrun their opponents with their sheer numbers. They're too mindless to take the time to aim. Instead, they're driven by instinct and the Hive Mind to overrun their enemies.


Hormagaunts - Ok. Frankly, I would drop the options for Frag Spines. I see frag spines in the more complex and elite tyranid creatures. Hormagaunts are supposed to be simple eating machines, light and really fast. Thus, they shouldn't be carrying too many biomorphs. Also, because they are mindless (or close-to), feeding machines, I would get rid of the Predictive Fighters mutation. They don't analyze tactics and react to what the enemy does. They just go in for the kill. That's the only tactic they need, unless instructed otherwise by a Synapse creature.

IMO, the lesser tyranid creatures do not need more than 3 possible mutations. They are not very complex creatures and should not need too many variations.

WHY are gargoyles 10pts? I get pretty much everything else, but really? What is it about them that makes them even remotely worth 10pts?

I've always thought about something that could Help out Tyranids, would be to replace the Barbed Strangler, and Stranglethorn Cannon, with the Impaler Cannon, and a new Variant, the Heavy Impaler cannon.

Let's be honest, no one uses the Strangler variants.

Keep the Impaler cannon as is, but then make the following profile for a Heavy Impaler cannon.

36' Strength 8, Assault 3. I think if our Tyranids were able to fit a few more of either in the Army, it would go a long way in helping our Armor problem.

For the Harpy, Besides the move to T6, and a hefty points reduction, would be the ability to replace it's Scything Talons with another Twin Linked Heavy weapon. I think that would make the Harpy worth taking.

I also think that the Venom Cannons, should have the ability to be fired as a Template weapon, instead of the small blast. Give it a Decent Ap, and I could see people actually taking it.

I also thought about this special Rule for Zoanthropes, Give them the "Living Artillery" rule. "If the Zoanthrope does not move, during it's movement phase, it's Warp Lance Psychic power hits automatically at the target (You still have to pass the tests of course) and the Warp Blast becomes twin Linked. Arriving from mycetic spore does not count as movement.

I think to make the Tyrannofex worth it's points, you could make him BS 4, and make the Rupture Cannon Twin linked. In Addition have it count as Ap 4 (1) And make the 1 only count for vehicles.

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Fast Attack
Tyranid Shrike - Fairly priced. See Tyranid Warriors above.


Raveners - Let's compare this unit to the Tyranid Warrior. Raveners have better Init and more Attacks. In addition, they have much better mobility. On the other hand, Tyranid Warriors has better Leadership and better Armor. Moreover,they are Synapse creatures with Shadows as well. So what's my point? I think their cost could be the same. There are 2 options that I like:

1) Since you lowered the cost of Warriors to 25pts, you could also lower the cost of raveners as well, or

2) Keep their price at 30pts but give them a bonus USR. For my raveners, I kept them at 30pts but gave them stealth.


Sky-slasher Brood - Only a 2-pt difference separates the ripper swarm and sky-slasher. There really is no incentive to take the ripper swarm with the sky-slashers so cheap. If it was me, I'd price them at 13pts base each. That IMO is enough to warrant some people to still take ripper swarms (though the majority will probably still take the sky-slashers).


Gargoyles - Honestly, I'd leave this unit alone. IMO, it is perfectly fine as it is in the codex. However, if you still feel that it is under-priced, then I wouldn't go more than 8pts base each. At 10pts each before upgrades, no one is going to take them, not when sky-slashers are only 2-3pts more.


Harpy -The pricing for this unit is reasonable. I would've priced it at 130pts base + 10pts for the Spore Seeding (unlimited usage). However, was there any particular reason for the +1S? As it is not a close-combat beast, I don't really feel that it needs the strength upgrade, especially when you take into consideration that tervigons and hormagons are only S5 as well. Also, I feel that any increase in stats should also warrant an increase in price as well. If you increase its strength by +1, then +10pts is not too unreasonable for a monstrous creature.


Pyrovore - I like Ratius' suggestion of the S5, AP3 Flamespurt. What I don't like is the 60pt price tag on these guys. For a 1-and-done unit (flame once and then die next turn), you actually have to lower their price in order to get people to use them. Otherwise, it really isn't worth it, considering how hard it is to actually use template weapons especially if you have no transports to disembark from. For the S5 AP3 flamespurt version, I'd price him at no more than 50pts.


The Red Terror - A regular ravener has 3W. The Red Terror, who is a monstrous ravener, should have more. Give him +1W for +20pts. This beast is a minimum of 170pts of pure nastiness.


Spore Mines - For a unit you can't really control and is easily avoided, I think 10pts is a little high. I would price it at about 7-8pts tops.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:WHY are gargoyles 10pts? I get pretty much everything else, but really? What is it about them that makes them even remotely worth 10pts?

That was a typo, they're 6 points as normal...

Comments on fandex, v1.1 continued....


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Heavy Support
Biovore - Perfect.


Trygon - I can't help but feel that the Trygon Prime upgrade is over-costed. If it was me, I would price it at +30pts. On the other hand, Armoured Shell on a T6 6W monstrous creature feels a little underpriced. I would leave it at +40pts, but I can certainly see why you lowered its price (to remain consistent with the Hive Tyrant's Armoured Shell).

Now onto 2 issues that certainly have been broached before:

1) Subterranean Assault - being able to assault after coming out of the hole is definitely a very powerful tool. I can see why you did this, as DE has the same capabilities with their WWP's. However, I think you should raise the price a little for this ability. DE have to pay I believe +25pts for their WWP. Since only 1 unit at a time can emerge from the trygon hole, I think +10-15pts is a reasonable price to pay for this tyranid special rule.

2) Stubborn monstrous creatures. I understand your intentions here, but it just doesn't work according to RAW. Stubborn negates any negative modifiers to Morale tests only. It does nothing to No Retreat saves. Thus, if the TMC loses combat by 6, it's still going to have to take 6 armor saves whether it is stubborn or not.

Tyranid players need to judge whether they should multi-assault with a TMC and a horde unit. That is another one of the tactical challenges of playing nids. I don't think this mechanic should be taken away. Tactical choices is one of the reasons that makes tyranids, heck, any army fun to play. By making tough choices, you become a better player. IMO, making it too easy by eliminating many of these choices dulls the experience. In the case of assault, tyranid players are presented with this choice - assault with multiple squads for a greater chance to wipe out the enemy. However, you also run the risk of losing both squads through combat resolution as well. Should you or shouldn't you make this tactical choice? These are the types of changes to the tyranid codex (to any codex) that I am against. It's also why I am against the mycetic spore's Synapse Node. We need to work within the limitation's of our codex's inherent design. What's the point of the limitations of being fearless when we can for the most part just ignore it's consequences? It's almost like giving orks BS4 meltas/missile launchers to solve their anti-tank problems.


Mawloc - Good. The cover save FAQ was pretty hokey anyways. As for stubborn MC's, see trygon above.


Carnifex - Reinforced Chitin is way too cheap. You're talking about T7 territory here. Same with Extended Carapace. Why do tyrants and trygons have to pay +30pts for it and not the carnifex? IMO, no mutation here should be less than 10pts, especially on a 4W monstrous creature. I would get rid of Enhanced Senses and just leave his BS at the original BS3. Enhanced Reflexes doesn't really make sense on a creature that's supposed to be slow and clumsy. I would drop that as well. After all, GW did give the carnifex the Living Battering Ram special rule to compensate. These are the mutations (and prices) that IMO should be available:

Predictive Fighters +10pts
Inhuman Strength +10pts
Reinforced Chitin +20pts
Armoured Shell +30pts

I would also change the price of the following options:

Symbiote Rippers +15pts
Tail Weapon, Mace +15pts
Tail Weapon, Scythe +20pts

But honestly, I think you should cut down on some of the options. The new carnifex just has too many options. It is also probably the only unit that is over-powered IMO at the currents costs listed in v1.1.


Old One Eye - Under-priced. There's a reason why he originally costed 260pts. Now, he's got +1WS, +1LD, 2+ save (as opposed to 3+ originally), can come back to life on a 5-6 and has frag spines and a mace tail weapon. On top of all that, his price has dropped 60pts! His points need to go up some. I see 230pts after all these "upgrades" to be a reasonable price.

Also, change his attacks to 5+D3 Attacks, assuming that you're going to change Crushing Claws back to +D3 attacks.


Tyrannofex - Good.


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Apocalypse Units
Hierodule - Prices should be inflated - no, bloated - for gargantuans. Regeneration +50pts.


Malanthrope - Way underpriced. We're talking about a walking tank that's also a killing machine here. A S6, T6, 4W, 2+/3++ monster with re-roll's to hit, wounding any non-gargantuan units on 2's (with re-rolls as well!) and then insta-killing them! Honestly, GW must've been smoking something when they made his rules. I wouldn't let you field that monster against me for that price!

At his current abilities, I'd say he's about 225-250pts. If you want to reduce his price, you can start by changing his Warp Field to just 3++ (the old WF was 2+/6++) and save +30pts by dropping the 2+ save.

Actually, I remembered that I had made a thread on the Malanthrope. You can check it out here for some ideas. Actually, after review, even my own version of the Malanthrope may be too cheap!


Hierophant Bio-titan - I'd say +100pts for Warp Shield. Yes, this big guy has expensive upgrades, much like the tire on a Ferrari costs a lot more than the tire on a Camry.


Harridan - I've always thought that this guy was overpriced to begin with. 850pts after Regeneration and Warp Shield seems like a fair price. However, I'm not sure you really need the 12" assault. This guy isn't really an assault unit. He's more of a transport unit with 2 big guns. Also, one thing of note is that the original harridan had 2 sets of scything talons. Your version only has 1.

But you know what's even better? Get rid of Warp Shield (this guy's not psychic). You can keep Regeneration. Keep his cost at the original 900pts (with regen) and then modify his Flyer special rule to be more in-line with that of an actual Super-heavy Flyer:

Flyer: The Harridan may move up to 24" per turn, ignoring all terrain. In addition, any unit targeting the Harridan shoots as if it was an actual Flyer. Therefore, the Harridan is only hit on 6's with shooting attacks unless the weapon fired has the Anti-Aircraft (AA) special rule, the maximum range of all guns targeting the Harridan is reduced by 12", template weapons cannot hit it and blast weapons cannot hit it as well unless they have the AA special rule (in which case, blast weapons only hit the Harridan on a to hit roll of 6).


Meiotic Spore - The D3 5" blasts (at S5 AP3) makes it too cheap for only 25pts. Considering that the original cost 35pts and only had 1 blast, I would say keeping it at 1 5" S5 AP3 blast for 25pts only is a reasonable price for this unit.

jy2 wrote:Raveners - Let's compare this unit to the Tyranid Warrior. Raveners have better Init and more Attacks. In addition, they have much better mobility. On the other hand, Tyranid Warriors has better Leadership and better Armor. Moreover,they are Synapse creatures with Shadows as well. So what's my point? I think their cost could be the same. There are 2 options that I like:

1) Since you lowered the cost of Warriors to 25pts, you could also lower the cost of raveners as well, or

2) Keep their price at 30pts but give them a bonus USR. For my raveners, I kept them at 30pts but gave them stealth.

I went with option #2, and gave them Scouts so that they can get in a Scout move before the game, or outflank.

jy2 wrote:Pyrovore - I like Ratius' suggestion of the S5, AP3 Flamespurt. What I don't like is the 60pt price tag on these guys. For a 1-and-done unit (flame once and then die next turn), you actually have to lower their price in order to get people to use them. Otherwise, it really isn't worth it, considering how hard it is to actually use template weapons especially if you have no transports to disembark from. For the S5 AP3 flamespurt version, I'd price him at no more than 50pts.

I've been waffling on this unit, but I think I'm going to make the Flamespurt S5 AP3 and let him have Fleet so it can get closer to the enemy. I was going to give it Beasts, but then it will probably never fire it's Flamespurt, which is really the whole purpose of a Pyrovore. So, if it can't get off a Flamespurt shot, it can still run and then assault before blowing up as a suicide bomber.

Be careful of giving Raveners scout; this can enable first-turn assaults.

But they will also be out of Synapse range so it's a balancing act.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:But they will also be out of Synapse range so it's a balancing act.

Not with maneuverable synapse (Flyrant etc) as long as you trail them sufficiently. 6 Raveners hitting the enemy T1 is pretty nasty...

Ok, first off, I've made some changes to my fandex HQ section on p.1.

I've added Hive Will and a new option for tervigons - Psychic Beacon. I also gave the Hive Tyrant the option for Enhanced Senses. Finally, I've adjusted some of my costs.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I went with option #2, and gave them Scouts so that they can get in a Scout move before the game, or outflank.

I like it.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I've been waffling on this unit, but I think I'm going to make the Flamespurt S5 AP3 and let him have Fleet so it can get closer to the enemy. I was going to give it Beasts, but then it will probably never fire it's Flamespurt, which is really the whole purpose of a Pyrovore. So, if it can't get off a Flamespurt shot, it can still run and then assault before blowing up as a suicide bomber.

While the Flamespurt is alright, I don't like the idea of giving them fleet. They are neither an assault unit nor a fast one. Giving them fleet (or making them beasts) doesn't really make sense to me unless you alter their fluff. To me, it's like a band-aid job. Oh, he can explode and kill some enemies by doing so? Let's make him fast so that he can do that better. However, the main function of the pyrovore is not to die or kill the enemy in close combat. His main function is to spread maximum carnage by roasting the enemy alive. And I think any additional special rule that the pyrovore has should support this function.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Be careful of giving Raveners scout; this can enable first-turn assaults.

It's not really a big deal. Many armies already have the capability to do this - Space Marines, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Orks, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, even Tyranids with infiltrating genestealers. First-turn assaults by scouting units will not break the game. There are restrictions to when it can be done (need 1st turn, no DoW deployment) and it is easy to counter (deploy a little further back, deploy in area terrain, don't deploy, screening units, etc.). Finally, the tyranid player needs to contend with synapse and also risk losing their expensive 200pt+ unit after wrecking 1 or 2 transports to retalitorial fire/counter-attack.

jy2 wrote:Malanthrope - Way underpriced. We're talking about a walking tank that's also a killing machine here. A S6, T6, 4W, 2+/3++ monster with re-roll's to hit, wounding any non-gargantuan units on 2's (with re-rolls as well!) and then insta-killing them!

jy2 wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I've been waffling on this unit, but I think I'm going to make the Flamespurt S5 AP3 and let him have Fleet so it can get closer to the enemy. I was going to give it Beasts, but then it will probably never fire it's Flamespurt, which is really the whole purpose of a Pyrovore. So, if it can't get off a Flamespurt shot, it can still run and then assault before blowing up as a suicide bomber.

While the Flamespurt is alright, I don't like the idea of giving them fleet. They are neither an assault unit nor a fast one. Giving them fleet (or making them beasts) doesn't really make sense to me unless you alter their fluff. To me, it's like a band-aid job. Oh, he can explode and kill some enemies by doing so? Let's make him fast so that he can do that better. However, the main function of the pyrovore is not to die or kill the enemy in close combat. His main function is to spread maximum carnage by roasting the enemy alive. And I think any additional special rule that the pyrovore has should support this function.

The alternatives are to leave him in FA with no reason to be there (normal speed, no fleet), make him a Beast, just give him 3" extra during the movement phase, or leave him in Elites which is one of his major problems to begin with.

Or maybe make give Flamespurt the reach around the corner rule? (like the TFex has on his template) Leaving him in Elite with that and the Str5 AP3 wouldn't be too bad.

Poor Pyrovore, he's the black sheep of the Nids codex (and pretty much the only reason why V1.2 hasn't been released yet, I want to get him solved first).

I've always liked the idea of a combined-arms approach - that if there are at least 2 pyrovores in the brood can combine fire for 1 shot like a hellhound/heavy incinerator/tyrannofex. If 3 combines then maybe increase the range by another +6". This way, they wouldn't be just a suicide unit and you may also get more than just 1 shot off them.

But that's just me. Use it only if you like the idea.