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@ Halmer, tau tech isn't, you can tell from the aesthetic.

Their tech never has wires or cables or anything on the outside, Imperial tech is the other way around.

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Halmer, tau tech isn't, you can tell from the aesthetic.

Their tech never has wires or cables or anything on the outside, Imperial tech is the other way around.

But what about the tech during the Dark Age?

Humanity reach its speak tech peak in the age of darkness, its been decaying for 15, 000 years now
who knows how it good technology was. And it does not stop the Tau from making a few improvement on there own.

Halmyr wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:@ Halmer, tau tech isn't, you can tell from the aesthetic.

Their tech never has wires or cables or anything on the outside, Imperial tech is the other way around.

But what about the tech during the Dark Age?

Humanity reach its speak tech peak in the age of darkness, its been decaying for 15, 000 years now
who knows how it good technology was. And it does not stop the Tau from making a few improvement on there own.

Umm...all modern Imperial tech comes from that point in time...the only reasons they are not as technologically advanced as they were is because

A. they understood the tech back then

and

B. They had "modern" imperial tech as well as other technologies. Land raiders, titans, plsama weapons, power weapons etc. ALL from that point in time.

And tau tech is so fundamentally different...it is as different from imperial tech as eldar and necron techs are.

im2randomghgh wrote:
B. They had "modern" imperial tech as well as other technologies. Land raiders, titans, plsama weapons, power weapons etc. ALL from that point in time.

And tau tech is so fundamentally different...it is as different from imperial tech as eldar and necron techs are.

I won't Argue With point A since it true.

But the "modern" tech: I'l refer again to The STC titan, the original plan was drasticly different from all current Titan, standing a 100 feet taller then even the imperator titan.
And its head not on the torso, but on top of the titan it self.
Imperial Tech if a fragment of what it is.

Also, Humanity took over 20,000 years to reach it peak, the Tau, as far as we know did it in less then 4000.
I'm not saying there whole tech is based off old STC, but the possibility of finding one, and then working from there might be what propulse then to there corrurent state.

Halmyr wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
B. They had "modern" imperial tech as well as other technologies. Land raiders, titans, plsama weapons, power weapons etc. ALL from that point in time.

And tau tech is so fundamentally different...it is as different from imperial tech as eldar and necron techs are.

I won't Argue With point A since it true.

But the "modern" tech: I'l refer again to The STC titan, the original plan was drasticly different from all current Titan, standing a 100 feet taller then even the imperator titan.
And its head not on the torso, but on top of the titan it self.
Imperial Tech if a fragment of what it is.

Also, Humanity took over 20,000 years to reach it peak, the Tau, as far as we know did it in less then 4000.
I'm not saying there whole tech is based off old STC, but the possibility of finding one, and then working from there might be what propulse then to there corrurent state.

Umm...tau haven't peaked yet.

As to the titan, the castigator was a class from back then, but the other titans also date back to that time, as well as legio cybernetica, men of iron and imperial robots. And lasguns, and graviton guns, and force weapons...

but tau have yet to peak. They have been a technologically adept society for 6000 years, and we humans (21st century) have been at a decent tech level for about 100 years, and look how fast we're progressing.

The thing is that the IoM reached a very high level of technology (the Tau are on the same relative level and progressing swiftly), then plateaued. Two steps back after the HH, one step forward in the 10,000 years since.

The Tau will very soon surpass the IoM in terms of tech. As a whole they are far more technology-literate than the IoM, and because of this won't peak for a long while, and they'll get pretty far before they plateau for a thousand years.

McNinja wrote:The thing is that the IoM reached a very high level of technology (the Tau are on the same relative level and progressing swiftly), then plateaued. Two steps back after the HH, one step forward in the 10,000 years since.

The Tau will very soon surpass the IoM in terms of tech. As a whole they are far more technology-literate than the IoM, and because of this won't peak for a long while, and they'll get pretty far before they plateau for a thousand years.

For all we know they'll eventually make the necrons look like barbarians.

Also, their tech even surpasses the IoM in some areas, according to a genetor of the Admech in the tau codex

The Necrons have gotten to a much higher level than the IoM, then plateaued. Then again, they did just wake up from a 60 million year sleep, so I think the Crypteks have got to be working on something, and not just faffing about.

Why do I feel like humans got to an insanely high technology level tens of thousands of year before even the Great Crusade, but something happened that caused a massive regress of technology.

And I think the Tau will eventually become the IoM is currently (Ethereals can only hold control for so long), but on a much higher level of technology. I think they'll be the ones to venture outside of the Milky Way.

McNinja wrote:The Necrons have gotten to a much higher level than the IoM, then plateaued. Then again, they did just wake up from a 60 million year sleep, so I think the Crypteks have got to be working on something, and not just faffing about.

Why do I feel like humans got to an insanely high technology level tens of thousands of year before even the Great Crusade, but something happened that caused a massive regress of technology.

And I think the Tau will eventually become the IoM is currently (Ethereals can only hold control for so long), but on a much higher level of technology. I think they'll be the ones to venture outside of the Milky Way.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends if they completely change their FLT or not, because otherwise they'll need generation ships.

The problem is the Warp. Every single species attempts to use it as a means of quick movement in the galaxy, but in reality, it is preventing those species from actually developing other technologies that do not rely on the Warp at all.

If you've ever seen a show that used to be on the science channel called Sci-fi science, Dr. Michio Kaku designs a way for ships to achieve FTL. The only problem is that it requires far more energy than any engine we have can put out. If the Tau were to say "hey, that whole 'warp travel' thing is balls, let's go find some other way to move FTL" they could have a safe and reliable means of FTL travel within a decade. Well, two decades, assuming the Tyranids don't eat everything and their field tests go well.

You might not see the tau with fast ships. I think we will just see them spawn satellite empires like in the they did in the jeracho reach.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Iwas talking about Chaso corruption here, who mentioned C'tan at all....

So, Daemons can take control of my wristwatch?
Humans are doing the other way around, they are using Machine parts with Human body ( Techpriest ).
The only real connection with the Machine Spirit would be only mental ( Titans ).

Daemons can control anything with a MS because of scrapcode, and show a member of the Admech (Tech priest) being controlled by it in the last Salamanders novel.

And who mentioned the C'tan?

The polity has biotech so powerful it can take complete control of every living organism on an entire planet from orbit. Chaos corruption is NOTHING compared to that.

Daemons can control anything with a MS because of scrapcode.

Chaos cannot corrupt anything the way it is presented here. They can try to take over sentient beings, but the creature has to will it itself.
Scrap code is dark mech tech, demons won't use that. The dark mech still are not able to turn LR machine spirits.
Necrons however may alter the 'ownership' of a machine temporary as shown in their latest codex.

BTW, this 40k background, not "sci-fi-background", so your unknown oh so awesome whatever its name doesn't belong here at all, mr random. 40k obviously wins on its home turf....

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually Leman Russ' have MS, just lesser ones. According to the AdMech, even lasguns have machine spirit. Every imperial piece of tech that isn't heresy has a MS.

Beware of the lasgun,it may turn on you because of scrap code
Always entertaining how far you reach to create arguments out of nowhere.
May I please have a link to a GW product, showing the MS of the lasgun? You know they did it for LR so.....

Halmyr wrote:I would like to point out that one STC seems to have been overlook: the Titan STC from the GreyKnights novel.

Basicly for those who did not read the book witout getting any spoilers out there, this STC was basically a walking robot that could communicate with anyone who wanted to.
In this case only in high and low gothic, but from the looks of it, it could quite possibly learn other language with ease.

Taking this in consideration, if the Tau could find a similar STC they could talk to, would help the Tau to Advance farely quickly.
Who knows, maybe part of the technology the Tau have is really human technology from the dark age.

The machine was a titan, in a not so awesome novel.
Its not an example of the common STC.
PLus youre missing the part of the marine is based on the human template and thus maybe acceptable where the non-human may be not.
No such thing as unprotected tech dropped alongside settlers on a frontier in a hostile galaxy.

nomotog wrote:I think demons can even possess swords or other non mechanical items.

It also wouldn't surprise me to see a tau drone possessed by a demon

A demon drone?
Demons may posess living things so until Tau start using brains in drones there is no danger of that.

im2randomghgh wrote:
And tau tech is so fundamentally different...it is as different from imperial tech as eldar and necron techs are.

So they can have their own stuff. There could be a reason everyone got his own tech...

Halmyr wrote:
Also, Humanity took over 20,000 years to reach it peak, the Tau, as far as we know did it in less then 4000..

Wasn't 4000 , was a changed timescale per warpstorm....so we don't know how long it took or how much help they had.
Plus eldar seem to be stagnant since the war in heaven, millions of years....shouldn't they just outperform everyone if time is soo important?

im2randomghgh wrote:

but tau have yet to peak. They have been a technologically adept society for 6000 years, and we humans (21st century) have been at a decent tech level for about 100 years, and look how fast we're progressing.

Right. Those Tau over there of your house may peak at their tech level next thursday.....
Wait. 2 different realms.....
And don't look at our planet, because some are still close to the stone age.

McNinja wrote:

The Tau will very soon surpass the IoM in terms of tech. As a whole they are far more technology-literate than the IoM, and because of this won't peak for a long while, and they'll get pretty far before they plateau for a thousand years.

Very soon...Tau fans will be disappointed when they find out GW applies advances based upon the kits they want to sell.
Last time I've checked, they are pretty comfortable sitting on their little island and changing the tech to their needs.
A executioner was rare when it was a FW kit, moved to GW and plastic it is no more...
Same with new kits. BAMF, StormRaven template found.
Whenever GW feels like it, tech will be found/invented, etc to fill their model lines.
Tau just get the "advance" explanation, doesn't mean they get better stuff or more than others. Just different justification of new plastics.

im2randomghgh wrote:

For all we know they'll eventually make the necrons look like barbarians.

Really? Back to overestimating the chances of the faction with sucktastic freind/foe recognition. They may not even live in a few centuries..

McNinja wrote:

And I think the Tau will eventually become the IoM is currently (Ethereals can only hold control for so long), but on a much higher level of technology. I think they'll be the ones to venture outside of the Milky Way.

They leave?
With their method of travel?

Go on we don't need anything based on the background here, just wild speculations..

You know , the space elves, and elfs are usual the ones to leave, are still here.

Halmyr wrote:I would like to point out that one STC seems to have been overlook: the Titan STC from the GreyKnights novel.

Basicly for those who did not read the book witout getting any spoilers out there, this STC was basicly a walking robot that could comunicate with anyone who wanted to.
In this case only in high and low gothic, but from the looks of it, it could quite possibly learn other language with ease.

Taking this in consideration, if the Tau could find a similar STC they could talk to, would help the Tau to Advance farely quickly.
Who knows, maybe part of the technology the Tau have is really human technology from the dark age.

As for the corruption of the Machine spirit: the Man of Iron Gaunt found were already corrupt, but who knows how long it took them to get to that point. The Corruption of the MS could have taken years, centuries to do, you do not neet a soul or a spirit to corrupt, simply a mind.

The STC from the Grey Knights: Dark Adeptus was possessed by a daemon. Daemons can go anywhere, especially if the said target has no soul but has limited thinking capability. That's what Chaos-corrupted machines are, their Machine Spirits replaced by a daemon.

And come on guys! Don't involve non-40k comparisons. Just make another thread for that.

You know as well as I do that Tau can't replace the Imperium. Most of GW's bestselling models are Imperials. There's no way they'd dump them and change from grimdark to noblebright by replacing the iron-handed Imperium with the 'angelic' (***brainwashing***) Tau.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually Leman Russ' have MS, just lesser ones. According to the AdMech, even lasguns have machine spirit. Every imperial piece of tech that isn't heresy has a MS.

That is only wild guess. They wouldn't put actual Machien Spirit into every Lasgun and Leman Russ in the Imeprium. They only say that out of phrase, like old Crusaders telling that God is leading their sword into battle. I could imagine most powerful and important vehicles having MS ( Baneblade, Land Raider, Titans ) but vehicles like Sentinel, Chimera and Leman Russ or equipment like vox caster, Lasgun and frag grenade - not a chance.

Well you're the one who brought them up...because I didn't mention them...

It was not you, it was nomtog. He mentioned C'Tan and Necron rebellion in comparison with AI rebellion while I was asking for Chaos corruption.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Their tech never has wires or cables or anything on the outside

Where did you get that idea?
I only saw that on ships and Techpriests ( they are full of cables after all ), I never saw wires going around Leman Russ or Titans, only inside them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:
For all we know they'll eventually make the necrons look like barbarians.

I am sorry but I don't see how can they progress much more.
Unless they start to toy with the forces of the Universe ( Warp, Black Holes... ) I see them staying as they are, maybe improve some guns but that's it.
It's like we, we can't progress much further. At least with the resources of this planet and this level of technology.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@1hadhq You have explain it like a boss

Where did you get that idea?
I only saw that on ships and Techpriests ( they are full of cables after all ), I never saw wires going around Leman Russ or Titans, only inside them.

Not wiring like that, I mean like belt feeds for weapons, and power lines for plasma etc. I.E. the burst cannon has everything inside it, bolt weapons have clips on the outside etc.

That is only wild guess. They wouldn't put actual Machien Spirit into every Lasgun and Leman Russ in the Imeprium. They only say that out of phrase, like old Crusaders telling that God is leading their sword into battle. I could imagine most powerful and important vehicles having MS ( Baneblade, Land Raider, Titans ) but vehicles like Sentinel, Chimera and Leman Russ or equipment like vox caster, Lasgun and frag grenade - not a chance

Lesser machine spirits are not sentient, but they do exist.
Proof: In scourge the heretic, one of the main characters (forget name, read it a while ago) had his lasgun blessed by a techpriest before battle and it performed better. Blessings don't affect the actual mechanics of a weapon, they appease the MS. therefore, lasguns have machine spirits. I have read it elsewhere but don't remember specifics.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Proof: In scourge the heretic, one of the main characters (forget name, read it a while ago) had his lasgun blessed by a techpriest before battle and it performed better. Blessings don't affect the actual mechanics of a weapon, they appease the MS. therefore, lasguns have machine spirits. I have read it elsewhere but don't remember specifics.

What kind of blessings?
Just praying? Or cleaning, Recharging, adjusting...

Mostly likely all three.

That is not Machine Spirit at all. That is regular maintenance of the gun with "Machine Spirit" used as tool to make you actually take care of your gun and maintain it.

To get back to my OP question...
So full STC is not just a box containing data, it is a fortress with AI defending it and keeping the data safe.
How do you lose that kind of thing?

Everyone around it dies and then the planet is thrown half way across the galaxy in a warp storm. Also just general wear and tear. There also could be a thing where several STC's where intentionally sabotaged or had there functions reduced. Like someone said before, you don't want everyone making vox misses, so the person in charge would just delete the vox data.

Brother Coa wrote:That is not Machine Spirit at all. That is regular maintenance of the gun with "Machine Spirit" used as tool to make you actually take care of your gun and maintain it.

To get back to my OP question...
So full STC is not just a box containing data, it is a fortress with AI defending it and keeping the data safe.
How do you lose that kind of thing?

Think of the Machine Spirit in most things as a type of animism.

BOT:
Biggest thing that makes STC's lost is fall of a civilization, or invasion, both of which happen alot in 40k

Brother Coa wrote:That is not Machine Spirit at all. That is regular maintenance of the gun with "Machine Spirit" used as tool to make you actually take care of your gun and maintain it.

He maintains he gun himself. The MACHINE SPIRIT was blessed by a tech priest

/conversation

Wardragoon wrote:
BOT:
Biggest thing that makes STC's lost is fall of a civilization, or invasion, both of which happen alot in 40k

Off-topic:
But actually STC is THE dead end for technological civilization, as temptation to say "This is ultima summa technologiae, why research something new?" is just too great for politicians and financists. And considering that after Jihad (war against Men of Iron - Herbert's word is so good) humans surely lost much of data-processing capabilities - effectively halting new tech development, i think that STCs were part of reasons Mankind was so balkanized. It was too easy for any separatist to equip their own domains which would survive even after cutting of all links to centers of civilization.
Sometimes i think that seek-n-destroy of full-capacity STCs could be part of Big E's plan for humankind...other part of which though didn't started yet thanks to headstrong guys in red robes.

1hadhq wrote:

McNinja wrote:

And I think the Tau will eventually become the IoM is currently (Ethereals can only hold control for so long), but on a much higher level of technology. I think they'll be the ones to venture outside of the Milky Way.

They leave?
With their method of travel?

Go on we don't need anything based on the background here, just wild speculations..

You know , the space elves, and elfs are usual the ones to leave, are still here.

I meant in a few thousand years after they ditch their warp-skimming engines. Out of all of the races, the Tau should be the ones researching non-warp-based travel. They are the least connected to it, and have no reason to use it as a means of transportation other than "everyone else does." The Eldar, on the other hand, are perhaps the one race that probably shouldn't even have a presence in the Milky Way at all, simply because after however many millions of years they should have expanded well in at least the local cluster. Yet, they still reside here, like a bunch of mooks, because in stead of trying to advance their tech they sat around and had orgies.

McNinja wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

McNinja wrote:

And I think the Tau will eventually become the IoM is currently (Ethereals can only hold control for so long), but on a much higher level of technology. I think they'll be the ones to venture outside of the Milky Way.

They leave?
With their method of travel?

Go on we don't need anything based on the background here, just wild speculations..

You know , the space elves, and elfs are usual the ones to leave, are still here.

I meant in a few thousand years after they ditch their warp-skimming engines. Out of all of the races, the Tau should be the ones researching non-warp-based travel. They are the least connected to it, and have no reason to use it as a means of transportation other than "everyone else does." The Eldar, on the other hand, are perhaps the one race that probably shouldn't even have a presence in the Milky Way at all, simply because after however many millions of years they should have expanded well in at least the local cluster. Yet, they still reside here, like a bunch of mooks, because in stead of trying to advance their tech they sat around and had orgies.

And fighting tha boyz!

And they're the second least connected to the warp. Necrons are less

Well, out of the ones that actually have souls, they are

McNinja wrote:Well, out of the ones that actually have souls, they are

Necrons have souls.

Not ALL of them mind you...

Maybe the Eldar havent left the Milky Way because they cant. What if the warp is like gravity?

Think of human and eldar souls as matter. The more of them they are the more "gravity" there is. So since there is nobody in the void of space between galaxies. Perhaps the warp cannot manifest in that area. Only where there are sentient beings.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Maybe the Eldar havent left the Milky Way because they cant. What if the warp is like gravity?

Maybe because their ships are to slow for outer-Galactic travel?

McNinja wrote:
I meant in a few thousand years after they ditch their warp-skimming engines. Out of all of the races, the Tau should be the ones researching non-warp-based travel. They are the least connected to it, and have no reason to use it as a means of transportation other than "everyone else does." The Eldar, on the other hand, are perhaps the one race that probably shouldn't even have a presence in the Milky Way at all, simply because after however many millions of years they should have expanded well in at least the local cluster. Yet, they still reside here, like a bunch of mooks, because in stead of trying to advance their tech they sat around and had orgies.

And if Mankind in their Golden Age and Necrons with their crazy tech didn't find FTL faster then Warp then it probably doesn't exist.

The Webway doesn't reach outside the galaxy. The Immaterium is spread across the universe, but the warp is actually the turbulence created in the Immaterium by so much life in any galaxy. So while you can leave the galaxy, the distance is so great, that it would be the same as traversing the galaxy without FTL.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Maybe the Eldar havent left the Milky Way because they cant. What if the warp is like gravity?

Think of human and eldar souls as matter. The more of them they are the more "gravity" there is. So since there is nobody in the void of space between galaxies. Perhaps the warp cannot manifest in that area. Only where there are sentient beings.

If we subscribe to the fluff where Eldar were reborn ( pre war in heaven, in a calm empyrean ) and just had a "timeout" in the sea of souls, wouldn't any Galaxy with sentient beiings provide such a "sea"? The rsik of it would be to die in transit and get lost forever without a chance to "respawn"...
Using your idea:
Space vessels have to overcome gravity and your idea would only make sense if eldar souls would have so much "mass" , they cannot overcome this theoretic "gravitational effect" you suppose here. Souls would been drawn to densly populated parts of the mirroring realspace and could turn into a "black hole " maybe too? Blackest of souls forming holes, later known as chaos "gods"....they are always hungry....
OtoH orks been reported as found outside... Soullless fungi....


But I doubt it. More likely theory:
- in a high fantasy setting, elfs can leave to their "albion, elysian fields, etc"... its a world of greys.
- in 40k, there is no escape from the grimdark. They are stuck in, like everyone else.... its darkness eternal, its denizens caught in eternal war.

PS: Because the pansy elfs contain souls in a matrix, a craftworld would take the souls of them with it in transit. Seems they no longer use the "sea of souls" at all if they can prevent it. Thus elfs should be able to leave. Maybe the shame of their contribution to chaos keeps them in?
Trying to cover what they did....