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Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:I imagine that the Admech is a little gun shy after they lost there last titan.

Not a chance, in the 13'th Black Crusade they lost many Titans and didn't care a lot.
Tiger Shard is basically Barracuda with all of it's guns stripped down and with only 2 Railguns ( 2 Railguns stripped from Tau Navy Battleship, down't know what class - IA never said ). Basically, that would be like stripping Thunderbolt with all his weapons and mounting either Lance batteries or Nova cannon on it.
The point is - while it's good to take down a Titan ( Warhound only, others are much tougher ), it is very vulnerable to every other threat ( infantry, tanks, aircraft ). That means that in next battle Tau will need to protect them, if they can because all Imperial anti-air guns, Lascannons, MIssle Launchers will target Tiger Shark.
IA also said that Titans have bigger range then Tau Railguns, meaning that Tau don't have anythign yet to counter Titans - much less Space Marines.

Back to your old habits again I see...

please remember this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/412954.page#3634114 that debunked all of your assumptions and dont go down the same inane road......again.
and its not Tiger Shard its Tigershark.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Back to your old habits again I see...

please remember this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/412954.page#3634114 that debunked all of your assumptions and dont go down the same inane road......again.

Yeah, I ask for the STC opinion and people again bring Railguns into thread. But it's a interesting idea that Tau might have developed some tech by using old STC they discovered.

and its not Tiger Shard its Tigershark.

Sorry I am hyperactive, I type before I think what to say. And I am not guilty if Google grammar is not doing his job right.

Whoops.

Ignore.

Brother Coa wrote:Suppose that Tau colonize new world and discover ruins of an old Human colony from Golden Age era. And in their excavations and studies of the ruins they discovered several STC's completely intact.

- Would they try to build what was on STC's using the plans that are stored into it?
- If Adeptus Mechanicus found out about his would they raise a Crusade force much more bigger then Democles one or try to negotiate?

First - afaik STC is AI with technological library. I think that adapting that to already developed Tau industry will be a large problem, but it'll contain too much of interest to be dismantled right away just to see how it works while it works - think 'bout Tau getting proper Warp Drive and secret of Void Abacus. And combined with full specs for most imperial tech (inc. lost technologies). But of course in place of Tau my first order would be"Blueprints for STC, most-capable model based on provided list of available tau and IM produced components".

So second - no way neither AM nor all other Lords of Terra will allow Tau to survive after that, all possible imperial forces will be used for both retrieval of STC and total Exterminatus of Tau race lest by some chance Tau escape with replica of STC or sensible technologies.

Maniac_nmt wrote:
(heck, the AK47 of Russian make is based on the German MP44).

Not true. AK internally is improvement of SVT family, which were developed and mass-produced eigth years before Sturmgewehr . Though some accounts say that Hugo Schmeisser was one of AKs developers as ergonomics and technological advisor.

nobody mentioned railguns, they just mentioned a titan that was lost, your the one that had to get all defensive.

And yes the Admech does care..deeply about every titan lost since they are not exactly replacing them at any kind of reasonable rate, or in many cases ever. A titan to them represents the machine god incarnate and to see one fall makes their zealous , superstitious brains explode .
another piece of the Omnisiah lost, or some other silly mumbo jumbo.

And to be fair thier are varying forms of STC, the holy grail of all STC's is the fully functional and fully equiped one loaded with all of the golden age of man's fun little secrets and technology. thats the holy grail for the AD mech, but if the Tau had one ( which I am fairly certain they do not, nore ever will have except in these form of threads. ) then unless the AD Mech can get there very fast after somehow discovering the existance of said silly pipe dream, (since the magical STC paired with Tau industriousness would allow a vertable santa's workshop production rate.) then they will be facing Tau armed with Vortex missles , standard troopers armed with gernade launchers firing Vortex gernades, and conversion beamers on battlesuits.

And if the STC is nothing more than a new kind of agri-plow or a soda dispenser, the Tau would likely happily return it to owners, Postage due of course ( the Tau are nice but not that nice.)

But nobody wants that, I like to keep the IoM silliness in its own yard, and My tau silliness in its own.

But continue Genocidal ideation fap fest by all means...

Crimson Devil wrote:The Tau probably would consider it an interesting bauble and nothing more. The Tau technology is advancing very fast and the imperium is regressing. Give the Tau another 50-100 years and Titans and Marines won't be much of a problem for them.

During the Dark Age of Technology Mankind stood toe-to-toe in technological terms for the first and last time to the Eldar, whose technology at the time bordered on magic. A complete STC would accelerate development centuries if not millenia for the Imperium.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And if the STC is nothing more than a new kind of agri-plow or a soda dispenser, the Tau would likely happily return it to owners, Postage due of course ( the Tau are nice but not that nice.)

As far as I know single STC contain more then one spec, right? I mean, they are build to give the Human colonist plans on how to build everything they need. Sounds to me more then simple soda machine specifics.

Brother Coa wrote:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And if the STC is nothing more than a new kind of agri-plow or a soda dispenser, the Tau would likely happily return it to owners, Postage due of course ( the Tau are nice but not that nice.)

As far as I know single STC contain more then one spec, right? I mean, they are build to give the Human colonist plans on how to build everything they need. Sounds to me more then simple soda machine specifics.

Nope wrong again, they find STC fragments and templates all the time, (well maybe not all the time, but when ever GW wants to add something new.) Re. Landspeeder, Land raider, etc each is a seperate STC discovery, they have not as yet discovered the one to rule them all and bring them back to golden age STC, hence the holy grail reference.

You mean, they found only parts so far but not full one?

Brother Coa wrote:

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And if the STC is nothing more than a new kind of agri-plow or a soda dispenser, the Tau would likely happily return it to owners, Postage due of course ( the Tau are nice but not that nice.)

As far as I know single STC contain more then one spec, right? I mean, they are build to give the Human colonist plans on how to build everything they need. Sounds to me more then simple soda machine specifics.

An STC is the sum of all Dark Age tech. It has everything, and it's Machine Spirit (not AI; they were already forbidden by the time the STCs were made) And even if the Tau reverse-engineer it, the Imperium will use traditional methods: drown the Tau in blood and bury them in corpses. The Imperium could throw half the Ultima Segmentum at the Tau Empire and reclaim that STC. What, a few hundred or so worlds against forces drawn from hundreds of thousands of worlds across the Ultima Segmentum? Even with reverse-engineered tech, they'd be forced into a war of attrition, something the Tau could not afford. And the warp technology in the STC can't be used by the Tau. Even during the Dark Age Mankind was already developing psychic tech that the Tau could not possibly use. Even if they use non-Tau psykers, without proper training, those psykers wouldn't be able to use their systems properly and would only serve to open warp portals to allow daemons to enter the material universe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:You mean, they found only parts so far but not full one?

A complete STC is something yet to be found. All STCs thus found are just fragments of datacores and old printouts. A complete STC has a complete database of EVERYTHING Mankind developed during the Dark Age of Technology.

yup at least so far as fluff and nonsense is concerned or the AD mech is again hiding things...go figure religious techno zealots hiding stuff, who would have thunk it.

Because if they had a fully functioning one with all of the wonderful darkage tech then it would be used....but wait its the ad mech again, they would put it in a cubby hole on mars and sacrifice sweetmeats and old popular mechanics magazines to it.

And on tuesday nights have holy sock puppet shows for its amusement and make the machine god smile.

Oh and sorry Tadashi : the STC is designed to allow ANY user to use it no reverse engineering required its like a replicator from star trek, tell it what you want and if the item is in its data base..poof it can be made, ( remember dark age tech stuff..magic, stuff )

So a fully functioning one with all of the super death tech of said age where as you guys have said they rivaled even the Eldar, then it would be a bad day for IoM human death waves, poof destroyed fleets, poof destroyed worlds, hell they may even have a remote control for the golden throne somewhere in its vast silly database..poof..no emperor's guiding light. ( yeah I know silly huh, and so is this thread. )

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:yup at least so far as fluff and nonsense is concerned or the AD mech is again hiding things...go figure religious techno zealots hiding stuff, who would have thunk it.

Because if they had a fully functioning one with all of the wonderful darkage tech then it would be used....but wait its the ad mech again, they would put it in a cubby hole on mars and sacrifice sweetmeats and old popular mechanics magazines to it.

And on tuesday nights have holy sock puppet shows for its amusement and make the machine god smile.

First Reason: To preserve the Mechanicus' monopoly on technology
Second Reason: The STC fragments are unstable (datacore remains) or too easily damaged (printouts). Until a complete STC is found and replicated, the STC fragments must be taken care of and protected properly.

You are not to bond to the AM are you?

Yes, they act like jerks sometimes and their way of thinking is...strange.
But without them the Imperium wouldn't have any kind of tech.

Brother Coa wrote:You are not to bond to the AM are you?

Yes, they act like jerks sometimes and their way of thinking is...strange.
But without them the Imperium wouldn't have any kind of tech.

Tau fans think like the Tau. They don't like the Imperium's method of completely uniting (by force if necessary) all Human resources and technology to focus it on all of Mankind's enemies. They don't realize it's the only way to control Mankind's self-destructive nature and ensure the species' continued survival and dominance.

Because Tau are not Humanity?

Tau are all united in a single purpose of serving their Ethereals.

Humans have individuals with their own ideas.

If not for the Imperium's leash every Imperial planet would be like Earth today: "204 states? Let's see if we can make 205."

nope I hate fanatics of any stripe, especially superstitious , narrowminded, religion using control freaks like the AD mech, and if you think they have any contol over mans self destructive nature, well that is delusional as well.

I personally hate these concepts and find it hard to back them even in agame setting, its all of mankinds worst traits, but revel in them if you will.

And I am done with this thread.

For a Human, survival is not enough. What's the point in Mankind becoming ascendant if we stop being Human? Humans are individuals, more often than not, it takes fear/inspiration/example to unite them. If we apply 21st Century ethics and ideology to 40k, Mankind would have gone extinct long before the 41st Millennium. The Imperium, for all it's cruelty, is the only thing keeping Mankind together. We're not like the Eldar, who run from their natures, or the Orks and the Dark Eldar, who indulge in it. We're not like the Tau either, who naively believe that that 'we can get together if we understand each other'. We acknowledge our nature and strive to surpass it, no matter the sacrifices. That is HUMAN.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I personally hate these concepts and find it hard to back them even in agame setting, its all of mankinds worst traits, but revel in them if you will.

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Tadashi wrote:If we apply 21st Century ethics and ideology to 40k, Mankind would have gone extinct long before the 41st Millennium.

It would be great if every alien race in 40k is like Tau...

If they were, then it wouldn't be grimdark anymore. It would be noblebright, and maybe we could afford to be more like 21st Century Earth. But if that was the case, then we wouldn't be playing 40k. I could play Starcraft and enjoy the same experience.

Crimson Devil wrote:The Tau probably would consider it an interesting bauble and nothing more. The Tau technology is advancing very fast and the imperium is regressing. Give the Tau another 50-100 years and Titans and Marines won't be much of a problem for them.

6 feet under and your problems with the living aren't important anymore...

The mechanicum alone would be enough to end their existence.
1 magos to negotiate, hidden beneath his frame a WMD like the life eater.... and grab the STC unopposed.

If the IoM is involved, the ad mech kept the real goal of an expedition to them before, they won't tell its about a STC.
The last complete STC we heard of was lost in the HH by horus who bought the mechanicums support with it but we never see it found or given to anyone. So any STC out there could be incomplete, or contain already known parts of the STC template.
I'd rather bet on collectors like Trazyn to have one, than Tau. Tau aren't interested in the tech of those they deem inferior. Their mistake...

I support the imperium whole heartedly. However I hate the ad mech. They are always willing to sacrifice billions to stop the "misuse" of technology. Like in the Helgate novel. They were willing to damn the entire planet to the orks than have a dark age weapon reactivated.

Taking an intact STC from the mechanicus would be like walking into the Imperial palace and kidnapping the emperor. It simply would not happen, and outrageous amounts of power would be leveled at the Tau. Assuming the tau found one without the Admech knowing, they could increase their technological level and maybe achieve full warp capabilities.

That would be scary for their enemies.

Tadashi wrote:For a Human, survival is not enough. What's the point in Mankind becoming ascendant if we stop being Human? Humans are individuals, more often than not, it takes fear/inspiration/example to unite them. If we apply 21st Century ethics and ideology to 40k, Mankind would have gone extinct long before the 41st Millennium. The Imperium, for all it's cruelty, is the only thing keeping Mankind together. We're not like the Eldar, who run from their natures, or the Orks and the Dark Eldar, who indulge in it. We're not like the Tau either, who naively believe that that 'we can get together if we understand each other'. We acknowledge our nature and strive to surpass it, no matter the sacrifices. That is HUMAN.

The IoM never felt all that human to me. Sitting firmly in the uncanny valley, they are more like a sallow joke of humanity.


I'm wondering something here. would it be the entire admech like some people think, or would it be the local forge world?

Brother Coa wrote: I type before I think what to say.

We figured that out by now

Tadashi wrote:They don't realize it's the only way to control Mankind's self-destructive nature and ensure the species' continued survival and dominance.
(...)For a Human, survival is not enough.

Actually, as you mentioned above, mankind as a whole is famous for ignoring its self-destructing nature. In real life, mankind will be lucky to survive the next 200 years, because currently they don't care about survival.

If the Admech even thought the Tau had complete STC they would attempt to bring the Universe itself down on them.

Not that I dislike the Tau, but they would not be able to hold off the forces the Adeptus Mechanicus of Mars if said faction found that they had an complete STC.

Kroothawk wrote:Mankind will be lucky to survive the next 200 years, because currently they don't care about survival.

Not quite optimistic eh?
Do not worry, we we still exist for many, many centuries. Internet, Video Games and globalization will make sure of that.
Also, as long as several countries have Nukes the peace is assured.

Back to the topic:

If the Tau found an STC i think they would eventually find out its tricks (since they do have human allies) But I don't think the IoM would easily find out the Tau even had it. Look at the Taros Campaign, the IoM didn't even know the Tau were ON the planet until they were getting beaten back.

But the reality of it is, it all depends on which side of the fluff you're reading, if you're reading from a Tau perspective...they win, and vice versa...

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Mankind will be lucky to survive the next 200 years, because currently they don't care about survival.

Not quite optimistic eh?
Do not worry, we we still exist for many, many centuries. Internet, Video Games and globalization will make sure of that.
Also, as long as several countries have Nukes the peace is assured.

I still have hope but working as an environmentalist, I see that the destruction of our life support system, the biosphere, is accelerating with no change in sight. And the exponential population growth and growing consumption per head is not helping. I can only hope that there is enough biosphere left when people finally realize their suicidal way of life.

1hadhq wrote:The last complete STC we heard of was lost in the HH by horus who bought the mechanicums support with it but we never see it found or given to anyone. So any STC out there could be incomplete, or contain already known parts of the STC template.

Not quite. Horus' envoy, in Mechanicum, offered the Fabricator General some hitherto-unknown STC data, as well as to lift the Emperor's proscriptions upon research into AI, not a complete and functioning STC machine. If Horus had in fact possessed such a machine, he would not have needed the Mechanicus, or indeed the Ruinous Powers to overthrow his father.

Kroothawk wrote:
I still have hope but working as an environmentalist, I see that the destruction of our life support system, the biosphere, is accelerating with no change in sight. And the exponential population growth and growing consumption per head is not helping. I can only hope that there is enough biosphere left when people finally realize their suicidal way of life.

That is true, as long as we are depending on fossil fuels and not having real means to get our "trash" problems fixed ( I mean anything from pile of garbage to radiation waste ) we will continue harming the nature. our only hope is to change from fossil fuels to new fuel sources as fast as we can and to invest in recycling more then now.
We shall see in next 100 years how will the situation develop.