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nomsheep wrote:Yes, I preferred 4th and Rogue trader.(before my time though.)

Both editions that I skipped. That being said, I heard that RT was less a wargame and more a collaborative RPG with miniatures. 4th, I've heard, was a bit broken when it came to vehicles and such... I can say that 5th is miles better than 2nd or 3rd though and people I know, and respect, say the same for it being better than 4th.

Difference of POV, I guess.

nomsheep wrote:He made two immensely overpowered books.

None near as bad as Cruddace IG, Kelly's 4th Edition Eldar, 5th Edition Space Wolves or some of the old guards books like Chaos 3.5.

nomsheep wrote:
had a hand the worst edition of 40k yet.

The best edition in my humble opinion. If you prefer older, using them is not outlawed I believe.

nomsheep wrote:
Invalidated every SM army that wasn't um by saying that all others are 'wrong'

How so? As noted, his efforts to boost non-UM are unprecedented for a Codex Space Marines. All those "better" older editions have boosted UMs far more vocally.

nomsheep wrote:
SLaughtered sisters in 70% of his fluff.

As does Kelly. See Space Wolves, etc.. .

nomsheep wrote:
but its not what he does its the zeal he seems to show in interviews explaining why x army should be god.

So he does his job of promoting new stuff convincingly, while the jaded disinterest is palpable with Kelly (Pirates aside) and Cruddace (IG aside). That sure is damning I admit.

I actually did a breakdown in a previous thread of UM content in previous codexes (2nd, 3rd and 4th) versus current (5th) and Ward's codex had the most non-UM material of any of the book. (Counted SCs / unique units between chapters and also pages of fluff between chapters in all SM codexes.)

Zweischneid wrote:

None near as bad as Cruddace IG,

Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.

There's really nothing wrong with the newest IG book. There is a common perception that a lot of the units are undercosted, but it is largely balanced in the current edition. Powerful, but balanced.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.

The worst of it is contained (thanks to Ward not the least) as Daemon-Hunter allies are no longer allowed.

But it has alot of highly underpriced units like the Vendetta or Manticore, the fact that it largely cancels out its own supposed flaws by shelterin its "weak" troops in cheap transports generously outfitted with fire points and often makes a mocking of the entire "humble troop" approach with veterans and the order system which results in more special weapons than most space marines are allowed wielded by troops that shoot as good, if not better, nor suffer any drawbacks in mobility or morality or, if kitted right, even close combat abilities compared to the supposed elite of "Marines", "Eldar", etc.. .

They are very powerful. But along with Kelly's "sit-back-gun-line" Space Wolves, I find the current IG badly written as a book because the result sits so much at cross purposes with the fluff. 5th Edition IG is largely about "elite"-skilled troops fielding the finest of Imperial Weapons (Powerswords, Plasma, Melta) to the battlefield inside transports whose mobility shames Eldar and whose firepower shames Marines for half the price.

Zweischneid wrote:
None near as bad as Cruddace IG, Kelly's 4th Edition Eldar, 5th Edition Space Wolves or some of the old guards books like Chaos 3.5.

I got bored of IG before i read the rules, eldar suck now, wolves i agree with and before my time with the others so i can't comment. Grey Knights trumps that. and i've flogged the deamon horse.

The best edition in my humble opinion. If you prefer older, using them is not outlawed I believe.

that's just my opinion here, not something he's done wrong. YMMV

How so? As noted, his efforts to boost non-UM are unprecedented for a Codex Space Marines. All those "better" older editions have boosted UMs far more vocally.

To much reliance on IC's for flavour and he does state the any who don't want to be ultramarines are abherrant(sp?).

As does Kelly. See Space Wolves, etc.. .

They've become a whipping post for any army that needs corpses or victims. i will be shocked if they are butchered in the new CSM as well.

So he does his job of promoting new stuff convincingly, while the jaded disinterest is palpable with Kelly (Pirates aside) and Cruddace (IG aside). That sure is damning I admit.

not sure if serious. I'm refering to his UM's are god interview and cos they're deamons interview.

Nom

pretre wrote:

nomsheep wrote:Yes, I preferred 4th and Rogue trader.(before my time though.)

Both editions that I skipped. That being said, I heard that RT was less a wargame and more a collaborative RPG with miniatures. 4th, I've heard, was a bit broken when it came to vehicles and such... I can say that 5th is miles better than 2nd or 3rd though and people I know, and respect, say the same for it being better than 4th.

Difference of POV, I guess.

Bit broken you say?

It was the edition of skimmer rape.

Tri-Falcon Eldar beat out everything, along with tau fish of FURY!

People don't seem to remember that eldar, despite their blandness were one of the most OP things due to how bad the skimmer rules were in that edition.

not sure if serious. I'm refering to his UM's are god interview and cos they're deamons interview.

Look on this forum, you'll find people doing the very same with their own favorite backstories and factions about how awesome they are over everyone else. It's not a thing related to just ward.

To much reliance on IC's for flavour and he does state the any who don't want to be ultramarines are abherrant

Because they phased out the rules for independent army lists that don't rely on sc's, the same happened to IG. Also I chalk that last one up to an Ultramarine writing it, as the abherrant chapters aren't dying out, but still thriving quite fondly.

I take about 50% of the fluff with salt generally, it's all propaganda and various misleading factors.

Never used skimmers in 4th just ig versus vanilla marines and the old fexes.

Nom

pretre wrote:There's really nothing wrong with the newest IG book. There is a common perception that a lot of the units are undercosted, but it is largely balanced in the current edition. Powerful, but balanced.

Zweischneid wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.

The worst of it is contained (thanks to Ward not the least) as Daemon-Hunter allies are no longer allowed.

But it has alot of highly underpriced units like the Vendetta or Manticore, the fact that it largely cancels out its own supposed flaws by shelterin its "weak" troops in cheap transports generously outfitted with fire points and often makes a mocking of the entire "humble troop" approach with veterans and the order system which results in more special weapons than most space marines are allowed wielded by troops that shoot as good, if not better, nor suffer any drawbacks in mobility or morality or, if kitted right, even close combat abilities compared to the supposed elite of "Marines", "Eldar", etc.. .

They are very powerful. But along with Kelly's "sit-back-gun-line" Space Wolves, I find the current IG badly written as a book because the result sits so much at cross purposes with the fluff. 5th Edition IG is largely about "elite"-skilled troops fielding the finest of Imperial Weapons (Powerswords, Plasma, Melta) to the battlefield inside transports whose mobility shames Eldar and whose firepower shames Marines for half the price.

Thank ya, I'll watch the point cost thing. Right now I had no plans to add those units anyhow.

Zweischneid wrote:

nomsheep wrote:
but its not what he does its the zeal he seems to show in interviews explaining why x army should be god.

So he does his job of promoting new stuff convincingly, while the jaded disinterest is palpable with Kelly (Pirates aside) and Cruddace (IG aside). That sure is damning I admit.

I can't imagine I'm alone on this, but I found this interview with Kelly on Dark Eldar to be extremely interesting, and probably the most interesting roundtable on lore from Games Workshop.

It seemed to me that these two guys were extremely fixated on fleshing out the Dark Eldar lore and filled with a lot of creative energy. I had no interest in Dark Eldar as a faction prior to watching this interview and now I actually find them to be a rich and compelling part of the game...




But on that note I actually also found Mat Ward's interviews on lore to be pleasantly surprising, as foul as I happen to find his actual writing.

Here is an interesting point about the Ward hate:

People who say that it's just "bandwagoning" have to consider what they are saying.

Bandwagoning means that one is agreeing with a point of view merely to fit in.

If someone feels that they have to hate Mr. Ward simply to fit in, then I think something is terribly wrong.

In-deed.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Here is an interesting point about the Ward hate:

People who say that it's just "bandwagoning" have to consider what they are saying.

Bandwagoning means that one is agreeing with a point of view merely to be one of the cool and/or mature 40K players

If someone feels that they have to hate Mr. Ward simply to cool and/or mature, then I think something is terribly wrong.

Fixed that for you.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Here is an interesting point about the Ward hate:

People who say that it's just "bandwagoning" have to consider what they are saying.

Bandwagoning means that one is agreeing with a point of view merely to fit in.

If someone feels that they have to hate Mr. Ward simply to fit in, then I think something is terribly wrong.

I actually have a tendency to despise something more the more people there are that disagree with me. It fills me with a tremendous amount of resentment.

For instance, I hate Justin Bieber, but my rage is partially sated by the fact that everyone else with any taste also seems to despise him. Or another example being the righteous crusade against Rebecca Black (of "Friday" fame).

By contrast, I despise Katy Perry in part because everyone else seems to like this talentless bar wench.

My hatred is indirectly proportionate to the amount of other people that also hate that thing.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Here is an interesting point about the Ward hate:

People who say that it's just "bandwagoning" have to consider what they are saying.

Bandwagoning means that one is agreeing with a point of view merely to be one of the cool and/or mature 40K players

If someone feels that they have to hate Mr. Ward simply to cool and/or mature, then I think something is terribly wrong.

Fixed that for you.

You changed the definition. According to Wikipedia, bandwagoning is the "Appeal to the Majority" not "Appeal to the cool/mature types."

Just sayin'.

EDIT: And Mr. Nugent, I believe there are 2 reasons for that:

1) You are an anomaly / statistical outlier
2) You feel no need to fit in (possibly)
3) You consider yourself nonconformist (likely)
4) You consider yourself a rebel against normalcy (likely)

I consider myself a crusader for good taste.

I am endowed with a holy mission by god to destroy all mediocrity in the arts.

TedNugent wrote:By contrast, I despise Katy Perry in part because everyone else seems to like this talentless bar wench.

My hatred is indirectly proportionate to the amount of other people that also hate that thing.

So, basically, you're a hipster?

TedNugent wrote:I consider myself a crusader for good taste.

I am endowed with a holy mission by god to destroy all mediocrity in the arts.

Taste, and even mediocrity to some extent, is subjective.

What you may consider good taste is something I cringe at, and visa-versa.

So that's like being a crusader for blueberries being better than blackberries - it just doesn't work.

pretre wrote:

TedNugent wrote:By contrast, I despise Katy Perry in part because everyone else seems to like this talentless bar wench.

My hatred is indirectly proportionate to the amount of other people that also hate that thing.

So, basically, you're a hipster?

I guess you could say that, except I do not dress like a doofus and I do not shop at the thrift store.

I would say the differentiating factor between myself and hipsters is that hipsters intentionally have no taste, whereas I intentionally try to have good taste.

I also do not evaluate things based on their popularity, I evaluate them based on their content first and then adjust my levels of self righteousness based on how many people are also accurately gauging the value of that thing. Technically, when things that are wonderful and artistic receive recognition, I'm happy, not sullen. I think Warhammer has a lot of wonderful art and is bristling with creative energy, and I don't begrudge any recognition of that fact. Part of my crusade is getting people to see and enjoy wonderful art. That's why I say, when people, en masse, rage against autotuned clowns like Rebecca Black, I get giddy and chipper. It's great when beautiful things like Bach and Hayao Miyazaki receive popular recognition.

That's what distinguishes me from dingleberry hipsters.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I don't mean to snatch your hard-earned e-ownage away from you.

I hope this picture can be some consolation.

TedNugent wrote:

pretre wrote:
So, basically, you're a hipster?

I guess you could say that, except I do not dress like a doofus and I do not shop at the thrift store.

I would say the differentiating factor between myself and hipsters is that hipsters intentionally have no taste, whereas I intentionally try to have good taste.

I also do not evaluate things based on their popularity, I evaluate them based on their content first and then adjust my levels of self righteousness based on how many people are also accurately gauging the value of that thing. Technically, when things that are wonderful and artistic receive recognition, I'm happy, not sullen. I think Warhammer has a lot of wonderful art and is bristling with creative energy, and I don't begrudge any recognition of that fact. Part of my crusade is getting people to see and enjoy wonderful art. That's why I say, when people, en masse, rage against autotuned clowns like Rebecca Black, I get giddy and chipper. It's great when beautiful things like Bach and Hayao Miyazaki receive popular recognition.

That's what distinguishes me from dingleberry hipsters.

Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression, I don't mean to snatch your hard-earned e-ownage away from you.

I hope this picture can be some consolation.

So, if you were to sum that all up in one sentence, basically you're a hipster?

Unit1126PLL wrote:

So that's like being a crusader for blueberries being better than blackberries - it just doesn't work.

Both blueberries and blackberries are delicious. Everyone knows that.

pretre wrote:


So, if you were to sum that all up in one sentence, basically you're a hipster?

Exactly.

I don't like Matt Ward because he a) cannot write believable characters and b) believes he's got an Emperor-given right to dictate our armies' attitudes towards things. The grand heroic Grey Knight who destroyed a Greater Daemon as a novice and was unanimously appointed Supreme Grand Master at an improbably young age is fine for wish fulfillment, but makes people other than the author roll their eyes and grumble. Telling us that he's universally beloved by all Grey Knights just makes it worse, especially when we've written our own slightly more believable/true to the grim nature of the universe characters for whom that is simply not true.

OP, one of the simplest things I can point out is that by your own admission your are new. And because of this you don't have the same accumulated amount of experience, knowledge and love of this hobby fluff/rules that were directly pissed on by his works. Much of what we talk about is subjective, but without hopping into a way back machine and investing over a decade of love into the Grey Knights and their established fluff you will not be able to truly fathom the sheer disgust I have for his GK fluff and his treatment of it.

Nor could I easily say that without the years of customer service experience could you see the same easily avoidable problems that should never have come to pass if he simply thought out what he said, or had someone with some sense like that looking over his shoulder.

People can write horrible fanfictions full of mary-sues until the cows come home. But since their works aren't going into print for the masses or carry any official weight as a developer none of that is relevant to this discussion. Mr. Ward is and does, and needs to carry himself as such a professional level demands or he validly opens himself up for criticism from the fans he says that he supposedly writes for.

I'm not trying to convince everyone to hate him, I am simply giving my stance as to why I refuse to purchase or even acknowledge any of his works until I see a change in his mentality and level of writing ability. As it stands in my mind they should just hire a 12 year old and pay them under the table, as that is the quality I believe we are getting and I am sure said 12 year old would not command anywhere near the same salary as Mr.Ward.

And like I pointed out before I hate his job and how he goes about it, but I am sure that he is a decent bloke IRL and wouldn't mind sharing a drink with him. Even if only so we can get really plastered and I can give a "Dude. C'mon. Seriously?" speech to him and hope for change.

Anyone else see the irony in the apologists stance in this that they simply protect Mr.Ward for equally subjective reasons to why we hate him and ignore that?

Hunterindarkness wrote:What I have taken form that is, people are gonna hate everything he makes because of one book, even if that one book has no bearing on his later books.I honestly have yet to see anything brought up in the 40k line that seems worse then what others have done. If your really dislike it blame GW as they gave the go ahead.

It's more a case of people loving to jump on the bandwagon for a bit of acceptance into the herd. It's percieved that people hate Mat Ward, so they say they hate him too so that everyone thinks they're cool, not because it's actually justifiable.

Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.

nomsheep wrote:he does state the any who don't want to be ultramarines are abherrant(sp?).

I don't believe that actually appears anywhere in the codex.

Zweischneid wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Bit of a thread jack, but could you tell me what is wrong with that one? I am asking as I just ordered it to build my army with so was wondering.

But it has alot of highly underpriced units like the Vendetta or Manticore

The only severly underpriced unit in the entire book is the Vendetta. The Manticore is more a liability then a benefit.

The fact that it largely cancels out its own supposed flaws by shelterin its "weak" troops in cheap transports generously outfitted with fire points and often makes a mocking of the entire "humble troop" approach with veterans

Because our 55 point Chimera is somehow cheaper than a 35 Point Razorback, Rhino, or a Drop-anywhere-you-want-it-no-dangerous-mishaps-Pod? Please. It's the only thing protecting the 10 T3, +5 save Veterans.

The order system which results in more special weapons than most space marines are allowed wielded by troops that shoot as good, if not better, nor suffer any drawbacks in mobility or morality or, if kitted right, even close combat abilities compared to the supposed elite of "Marines", "Eldar", etc..

Orders are terrible. Please give me back Sharpshooters and Doctrines. And the reason IG can spam so many special weapons is because of the Infantry's stats and its main armament is a S3 AP - Lasgun.

I find the current IG badly written as a book because the result sits so much at cross purposes with the fluff. 5th Edition IG is largely about "elite"-skilled troops fielding the finest of Imperial Weapons (Powerswords, Plasma, Melta) to the battlefield inside transports whose mobility shames Eldar and whose firepower shames Marines for half the price.

Source please where the IG Codex only says 'largely about elite-skilled troops'. And they can't hold a candle to the Eldar's speed nor compete with the Marines sheer close combat prowess.



There's no broken Codex', despite the opressive wave of threads trying to argue otherwise. Matt Ward isn't too terrible when it comes to writing 40K Codex balance, barring a little bit for Grey Knights Shenanigans.

What I don't find appealing about Ward is his fluff writing. The Necrons were the exception to the rule. They were pretty good as a whole. (Except you'd think the Silent King would be more worried about Orks than Tyranids). I'm rather inclined to see what he does to the Black Templars...

Zweischneid wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:Besides, the question was why we hate Ward, and the SOB murder-thon is a valid reason

No it isn't. Because it is something found among all authors (since "there is only War" and all that). But only forwarded as a reason to "hate" one of them. Hence, double standards.

Space Wolves Codex 5th wrote:
A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and asses the Space Woves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's gun. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces.

Ward's descriptions are obviously far more visceral than the dry accountant-style prose of Kelly. But the act is the same. Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas get attacked for no good reason all over. It's 40K. It's "grimdark". There is only war. Adepta are not excepted.

How do you keep doing this over and over? The specific objection to the slaughter of the sisters is that it WAS done for a reason; a moronic one. The book spends page after page spanking over how the GK are the purest of the pure, more pure than anyone else, and that certain GK are even more pure than that.....and then describes them casually murdering sisters as if it's business as usual, then using their blood to perform a ritual that could be copy-pasted into the upcoming Chaos codex verbatim without seeming even slightly out of place. You cannot be both a pure servant of goodness and a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins during a dark ritual at the same time.

The incident with the Wolves and the Ecclesiarchy also happens for a reason, and not only is that reason consistent with the existing background, it is within character for both involved parties. They are fighting each other over a matter of principle/belief, not because the Wolves have suddenly decided that actually they're Chaos Space Marines.

This is exactly the problem people have with both Ward's writing, and the lemmings who rush to defend it; it's bad writing. The ideas are often quite good, but his execution is definitively, empirically, categorically, objectively bad. His heroes have no depth, no flaws, no contrast; they are all perfect paragons. Reading his stories is like watching those godawful and pretentious "reimaginings" of Shakespeare that every school drama class everywhere seems to do every few years. Draigo is so terrible that a mate of mine uses him as an example of how not to write a heroic character when teaching his English class, because the character is the very definition of a Mary Sue. He changes existing background on a whim, not because it needed changing to fit with other new stuff he'd written, or because it was horribly out of date, simply because he can.

In short, he's disliked because he's a bad writer; that's not an opinion, it's simply true, his works are packed end-to-end with examples of how -not- to write fiction straight out of textbooks.

Kaldor wrote:Even Draigo's fluff is cool, really.

I am not an unjust man by any means, so I shall give you the benefit of a 5 minute head start. But then the hunt begins.

Now can someone else confirm this for me, but when Chapter's Due was written and finally gave the Ultramarines some humble pie which everyone loved, Mr.Ward specifically set about changing some fluff so that the Daemon Prince in said novel could not have been on Macragge at the time just to invalidate the novel since it was his most favorite bestest ever Chapter that could do no wrong eating said pie? Because I remember that being the case, and highlights yet another issue I have with him. Though I did hear this 2nd hand so if I am wrong so be it and happy to be corrected, but if true it is exhibit A of the case for him being nothing more than a butthurt fanboy.

And to also illustrate just how alienated he is, no one really talks about Goto anymore. He was overshadowed by Ward. Mat Ward is the Stephanie Meyer of 40K IMO.

I don't hate Mat Ward BUT I do think his fluff is silly..

Yodhrin wrote:The specific objection to the slaughter of the sisters is that it WAS done for a reason; a moronic one. The book spends page after page spanking over how the GK are the purest of the pure, more pure than anyone else, and that certain GK are even more pure than that.....and then describes them casually murdering sisters as if it's business as usual, then using their blood to perform a ritual that could be copy-pasted into the upcoming Chaos codex verbatim without seeming even slightly out of place. You cannot be both a pure servant of goodness and a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins during a dark ritual at the same time.

lolwut?

It's 40K. Being a murdering psychopath who bathes in the blood of virgins is almost mandatory for being a servant of goodness.

Now while theres the whole 'incorruptible' thing with the GK, how do we know anything about the blood tide? It obeys none of the normal rules for Chaotic posession, and perhaps would have caused a physical corruption that the GK purity of spirit would have been unable to over-come?

Personally I find most of the anger at Wards fluff is due to a chronic lack of imagination.