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Asherian Command wrote:yes but some people want a new setting!

Well, the galaxy is a big place, and 40K background is deliberately vague. Find somewhere and somewhen that you like.

If it's the core setting that you want changed, then why are you even playing 40K in the first place?

Kaldor wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:yes but some people want a new setting!

Well, the galaxy is a big place, and 40K background is deliberately vague. Find somewhere and somewhen that you like.

If it's the core setting that you want changed, then why are you even playing 40K in the first place?

You are very rude aren't you?

Never before have I had to use this button but OKAY!

I do have an area that I do use. Just want to see a supplement that makes optional for you to take a new setting and which you can build up from there.

Asherian Command wrote:yes but some people want a new setting!

For them, I'd recommend Warmahordes.


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Asherian Command wrote:Just want to see a supplement that makes optional for you to take a new setting and which you can build up from there.

This is what is already accomplished by the BGB. It's your starting point.

Manchu wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:yes but some people want a new setting!

For them, I'd recommend Warmahordes.

Err No. That does not have space ships nor does it have aliens that can rip you to shreds.

Manchu Bear wrote:
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Asherian Command wrote:Just want to see a supplement that makes optional for you to take a new setting and which you can build up from there.

This is what is already accomplished by the BGB. It's your starting point.

Yup. Already knew that but it is good to have a starting point for anything.

Yeah, so I don't want to crush or lift anyone's spirits here, but I got my rulebook today, and I couldn't find ANYTHING regarding this whole 'Marines protecting the Tau" thing. I looked for a good hour for it. Yes, the allies table shows them as battle brothers, but in general the allies table makes no sense from either a fluff or game balance standpoint.

The Tau fluff is a one page blurb and a picture that was probably pulled right out of the 4th or 5th Edition rulebook, and I couldn't find it anywhere in the fluff about the Space Marines or the Emperor. Hell, Sisters of Battle I think get more fluff than the Tau, I left my rulebook in the car and can't be arsed to get it right now.

Slacker wrote:Yeah, so I don't want to crush or lift anyone's spirits here, but I got my rulebook today, and I couldn't find ANYTHING regarding this whole 'Marines protecting the Tau" thing. I looked for a good hour for it. Yes, the allies table shows them as battle brothers, but in general the allies table makes no sense from either a fluff or game balance standpoint.

The Tau fluff is a one page blurb and a picture that was probably pulled right out of the 4th or 5th Edition rulebook, and I couldn't find it anywhere in the fluff about the Space Marines or the Emperor. Hell, Sisters of Battle I think get more fluff than the Tau, I left my rulebook in the car and can't be arsed to get it right now.

your name is so appropriate

I'm just gonna drop my two cents on 6th Edition.

To me, 4th Edition was 40K. That was when I started, that was when I fell in love. It seemed to me that the editions eventually found their foothold in 4th. 1st Edition Rogue Trader was more or less a parody, with the groundwork of 40K, but extremely rough around the edges. It didn't quite have it's own distinctive style yet. 2nd Edition was pretty similar, throwing in new ideas that would eventually become established aspects of the universe, but still not quite grounded.

3rd Edition was where I thought it really started to take shape into what we know of as 40k. 4th Edition was simply the refinement, and where things firmly stayed. New concepts like the Tau were expanded upon in 4th, the tyranid redesign was fantastic, and for me personally, it marked the best balance of both darkness and humor. It wasn't exceedingly bleak to the point of depression, but nor was it overly parody. It was dark humor at its best.

5th Edition just felt too "EXTREEME DARKNESS GUIZE!", over emphasizing certain things and trivializing others. It just felt like they were taking things a little too far, and some of the appeal wore off. So I'm looking forward to 6th Edition, if only to see what they do with it from a fluff perspective. Maybe it will be a game changer, maybe it will play it safe, or maybe it will further refine what I loved from 4th.

Slacker wrote:Yeah, so I don't want to crush or lift anyone's spirits here, but I got my rulebook today, and I couldn't find ANYTHING regarding this whole 'Marines protecting the Tau" thing. I looked for a good hour for it. Yes, the allies table shows them as battle brothers, but in general the allies table makes no sense from either a fluff or game balance standpoint.

The Tau fluff is a one page blurb and a picture that was probably pulled right out of the 4th or 5th Edition rulebook, and I couldn't find it anywhere in the fluff about the Space Marines or the Emperor. Hell, Sisters of Battle I think get more fluff than the Tau, I left my rulebook in the car and can't be arsed to get it right now.

Thank you for your time. I appreciate the update. Looks like we dodged a bullet. Now, we just have to make it through two new Codex books.

Hopefully, not only will the Tau be UPDATED this edition, but the person writting the Fluff will just expand on the current stuff. No Space Marine protectors. Just make them not lose every encounter with the big bad things that go bump in the universe, and expand on their cultural and military paradigms. They could EASILY do this by expanding on their empire, as well as describe all of the alien species that they have brought into the fold. Even if they do not have models for every species listed, it would open up all kinds of conversion ideas, as well as use the Allies rules for some interesting game mechanics. This would be an excellent way for GW to bring new life to a good concept, as well as lots of sales.

As far as the Space Marines, let's just hope that they have good, balanced, and FLUFFY rules. Keep them as the ultimate warrior monks in the universe. I don't need crazy game mechanics. I just need a good solid ruleset, so that my 2nd Company of Ultramarines can do well. Not Grey Knight well. But, good enough to at least keep pace with the other armies out there.




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Arcsquad12 wrote:To me, 4th Edition was 40K.

I could not agree with you more. 4th Edition had a good, solid, ruleset, as well as great Codex books. Remember the Chaos Space Marines codex for 4th? Traitor Legion rules. Daemons. Deamonic Gifts. You could really make a unique force with that Codex. Never mind that it was cheesed out most of the time. That just comes down to the power/tournament players. I used to walk away from a player if they had too much cheese. I don't need to play. I get to. If my opponent was too extreme, I just let someone else get frustrated.

Tyranids were also great in 4th. Sure, the big bugs played a little too much of a role on the table, but again, you didn't HAVE to play with a cheesy player. At least the Codex gave you options.

The same things can be said of the Space Marines and Guard codex books. Sure, Guard were a little weaker than most, but you could do all kinds of neat things with their book. The Space Marines were also full of potential. As a Fluffy player, I never took min/maxed squads. I only took 1 Assault Cannon. If I saw more than that in an army, I simply didn't play.

I guess that we want the best of all possible worlds. Choices, but not cheese. Fluff, but not limited in power. It's hard to do, but it can be done.

CaptainLoken wrote:

Slacker wrote:Yeah, so I don't want to crush or lift anyone's spirits here, but I got my rulebook today, and I couldn't find ANYTHING regarding this whole 'Marines protecting the Tau" thing. I looked for a good hour for it. Yes, the allies table shows them as battle brothers, but in general the allies table makes no sense from either a fluff or game balance standpoint.

The Tau fluff is a one page blurb and a picture that was probably pulled right out of the 4th or 5th Edition rulebook, and I couldn't find it anywhere in the fluff about the Space Marines or the Emperor. Hell, Sisters of Battle I think get more fluff than the Tau, I left my rulebook in the car and can't be arsed to get it right now.

Thank you for your time. I appreciate the update. Looks like we dodged a bullet. Now, we just have to make it through two new Codex books.

Hopefully, not only will the Tau be UPDATED this edition, but the person writting the Fluff will just expand on the current stuff. No Space Marine protectors. Just make them not lose every encounter with the big bad things that go bump in the universe, and expand on their cultural and military paradigms. They could EASILY do this by expanding on their empire, as well as describe all of the alien species that they have brought into the fold. Even if they do not have models for every species listed, it would open up all kinds of conversion ideas, as well as use the Allies rules for some interesting game mechanics. This would be an excellent way for GW to bring new life to a good concept, as well as lots of sales.

As far as the Space Marines, let's just hope that they have good, balanced, and FLUFFY rules. Keep them as the ultimate warrior monks in the universe. I don't need crazy game mechanics. I just need a good solid ruleset, so that my 2nd Company of Ultramarines can do well. Not Grey Knight well. But, good enough to at least keep pace with the other armies out there.




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Arcsquad12 wrote:To me, 4th Edition was 40K.

I could not agree with you more. 4th Edition had a good, solid, ruleset, as well as great Codex books. Remember the Chaos Space Marines codex for 4th? Traitor Legion rules. Daemons. Deamonic Gifts. You could really make a unique force with that Codex. Never mind that it was cheesed out most of the time. That just comes down to the power/tournament players. I used to walk away from a player if they had too much cheese. I don't need to play. I get to. If my opponent was too extreme, I just let someone else get frustrated.

Tyranids were also great in 4th. Sure, the big bugs played a little too much of a role on the table, but again, you didn't HAVE to play with a cheesy player. At least the Codex gave you options.

The same things can be said of the Space Marines and Guard codex books. Sure, Guard were a little weaker than most, but you could do all kinds of neat things with their book. The Space Marines were also full of potential. As a Fluffy player, I never took min/maxed squads. I only took 1 Assault Cannon. If I saw more than that in an army, I simply didn't play.

I guess that we want the best of all possible worlds. Choices, but not cheese. Fluff, but not limited in power. It's hard to do, but it can be done.

that was 3rd for the chaos marines dude, 4th one is utter utter crap by comparison lol

Totally agree about the guard and marine books, you could actually create you own chapter/company and it had alot of character

I've always thought the Tau wanting to conquer the universe was a bit odd. Surely they're bright enough to realise that they don't have a chance and they're best off allying with the Imperium? In the interests of the greater good, of course.

I had a quick flick through the GW store copy of tbe BGB and there didn't seem to be all that much fluff at all

Lots of different pictures of all the unit types and stuff though...

Oh, there's lots of random fluff, it's just scatter shot and mostly recycled. Hell, the Tau picture is the cover of the 3e codex, the Sister of Battle picture is from about 1994.

There are a few new nuggets, but they're few and far between.

And I spent another hour last night after dinner looking again, no SM/Tau bromance, I repeat, no SM/Tau bromance.

Joey wrote:I've always thought the Tau wanting to conquer the universe was a bit odd. Surely they're bright enough to realise that they don't have a chance and they're best off allying with the Imperium? In the interests of the greater good, of course.

That's because the Greater Good is a sham. It's a hyper-nationalistic, pervasive propaganda campaign used to control and motivate the Elemental Castes by the Ethereals. It's really just an extremely exaggerated version of the ideas and ideals the Nazis used to whip up a shattered Germany and transform it into the unified front of the Third Reich. The Ethereals have their own agenda, of which we aren't privy to.. The Tau military forces conquer the galaxy for the Greater Good because that's what they're told the greater good is.


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Asherian Command wrote:yes but some people want a new setting!

Then some people are going to remain sorely disappointed.

Just read through the fluff and although I can't say I remember all of it accurately, the setting has become (dare I say it) more hopeful.

Rather then the end times which is the end of the human race. It is now positioned as "mankind is now on the fence". On one side, is the end as we all know it. On the other, is an apotheosis of human psykers such that they grow strong enough to defend themselves against the warp. The Emperor's continued survival is just so that he can buy the time for humanity to achieve that ascension.

Hope the above was helpful and yes, I did not find any mention of bromance as well.

overkill76 wrote:Just read through the fluff and although I can't say I remember all of it accurately, the setting has become (dare I say it) more hopeful.

Rather then the end times which is the end of the human race. It is now positioned as "mankind is now on the fence". On one side, is the end as we all know it. On the other, is an apotheosis of human psykers such that they grow strong enough to defend themselves against the warp. The Emperor's continued survival is just so that he can buy the time for humanity to achieve that ascension.

Hope the above was helpful and yes, I did not find any mention of bromance as well.

I'm actually okay with this. While the Emperor may be doing his best to stay alive until humanity can ascend, does anyone actually know that he wants humanity to do this? And if so, it could still be thousands of years before it occurs.

I read in another forum that the SM codex bit about a single chapter destroying a Craftworld was retconned.
Can anyone confirm this please?

I don't get the hate toward fluff stating that the Ultras want the Tau protected. Things change.

Davylove21 wrote:I don't get the hate toward fluff stating that the Ultras want the Tau protected. Things change.

From what I understand, this was a rumor, and isn't actually in the new book. In fact, the only mention people have been able to find that involves both Ultramarines and Tau are them fighting in a battle, lol.

Joey wrote:I've always thought the Tau wanting to conquer the universe was a bit odd. Surely they're bright enough to realise that they don't have a chance and they're best off allying with the Imperium? In the interests of the greater good, of course.

The IoM dosen't want to be allies. That's why they fought the gulf crusade.

nomotog wrote:

Joey wrote:I've always thought the Tau wanting to conquer the universe was a bit odd. Surely they're bright enough to realise that they don't have a chance and they're best off allying with the Imperium? In the interests of the greater good, of course.

The IoM dosen't want to be allies. That's why they fought the gulf crusade.

with little to no man power.

overkill76 wrote:Just read through the fluff and although I can't say I remember all of it accurately, the setting has become (dare I say it) more hopeful.

Rather then the end times which is the end of the human race. It is now positioned as "mankind is now on the fence". On one side, is the end as we all know it. On the other, is an apotheosis of human psykers such that they grow strong enough to defend themselves against the warp. The Emperor's continued survival is just so that he can buy the time for humanity to achieve that ascension.

Hope the above was helpful and yes, I did not find any mention of bromance as well.

It is basically back to 4th ed. Mankind has victory conditions once again, as opposed to "Everything IS going to fall, just not yet" and 3rd ed's "The age of man ended thousands of years ago"

Third edition was the definition of grimdark. No one was sane, no one was a nice guy, Sisters used suicide bombers, the High Lord's minds were already rotted away by juvenat drugs and there was not enough political will in the galaxy to shift the council one iota. Chaos worship was rampant on Holy Terra itself, the Space Marines that weren't completely crazy (Spoiler:here were none) were far too busy fighting hopeless lost causes to do anything about it. The IoM's methods were not presented as "Neccesary Evil" but just plain sadistic. Chaos was not worse than the bulk of humanity, just different and still ever bit as diabolical as they are now, if not more. There was no Horus Heresy, no tragic Freudian excuse to make Chaos or the IoM remotely sympathetic. Just unthinking brutality and never-ending bloodshed for it's own sake. Then the Tyrannids showed up. And the Necrons. Into this the Tau were introduced and garnered a lot of hate.

4th edition came along and toned that down. What was the point, some players asked, of playing a game where every battle is pointless, and every victory Pyrrhic? There were warzones that hung in the balance, the fate of which could be decided by a single battle, there were, as mentioned before "win conditions" for each race. Orks could unite and crush all resistance, Eldar got Ynnead and the Beil-Tan, all Chaos had to do was take Cadia, and even then their agents were subverting Man the galaxy over The Tau, if left unpreturbed, would outstrip the technology of the Imperium, and with higher population and unity than the Eldar, not to mention their anti-war powers, they too could "Win". Even the IoM was brutal, but necessary, though all they had to do was hold the line.

5th changed that a little more subtly. The end was nigh. From everywhere at the same time. If X didn't get everything, Y sure as hell would. It was a really 5 minutes to midnight period.

6th? If you have been paying attention to the codex releases, armies are getting more human. Space Marines are getting more heroic and larger than life than they have ever been before, Tyranid synapse creatures have a modicum of free will, FFG's Black Crusade gives a lighter look at chaos, even and Necrons are completely different, having personalities and agendas independent of "CRUSH. KILL. DESTROY. SWAG." My prediction? That everything gets more political. A step back to 4th ed, in a way while blended with the 5th ed 5 minutes to midnight. The next millenia will make or break the galaxy, not just break it. All sides are more relatable, and fighting for their lives and victory for their people.

I love it, personally. I always was fond of 4th's general tone, and this is a marvelous throwback to those days while keeping the tension of the times palpable (even if it has worn a little thin for a grizzled vet like me).

The Emperor is a cry baby and the entire Imperium of Man knows it. Weird.

I have to agree that the grimdark needed a slight scaling back. It is possible to have a universe be a little bleak without making it hopeless.

The problem with the "If not X, Y" grimdark is that it reeks of one upsmanship. Why do we have endless arguments about who is more powerful, orks or tyranids? Because of power creep.

In the old days, like 2nd Edition old days, the Tyranids were the only "Going to eat everything" level bad guy. Orks were just the galaxy's obnoxious neighbors, not an impossibly reproducing space fungus that only got stronger the more it fought. A 2nd or even 3rd Edition Waaaaaagh was a big deal. It meant that one warlord had become so powerful he could unite large groups of Orks. The modern fluff makes the Waaaaagh pretty much inevitable as the number orks will just constantly, and unchecked, grow and grow and grow. The inevitability of the Waaaaagh makes orks a lot more powerful. It also makes them infinitely less cool than they used to be.

Chaos also used to be sneaky, bitter jerks; the remnants of the traitor legions. Most of them hung out in the Eye of Terror plotting their revenge, but couldn't really figure out how to make that happen. They occasionally got powerful and united enough to make a Crusade, and just like if you pizza when you're supposed to french fry, that meant people were going to have a bad time. Eventually Chaos was also everywhere, threatening to eat everything.

Basically, when the setting gets to the point where even the relatively harmless factions like Dark Eldar and Tau are slowly eating the Imperium, it needed a change, haha.

Grimdark is absurd because it permits nothing to balance it out. Depressing and bleak on top of depressing and bleak is repetitive, and dull, and it really kills any expectation. You need something positive to generate hope, and to drive home the fact that there are things at stake and there are things you stand a risk of actually losing.

That's one thing that makes Abnett such a good writer, IMHO. I mean look at Eisenhorn. Alot of 'victories' there, but he also had a great deal to lose... and he did lose it all and look where its driven him, ultimately.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Grimdark is absurd because it permits nothing to balance it out. Depressing and bleak on top of depressing and bleak is repetitive, and dull, and it really kills any expectation. You need something positive to generate hope, and to drive home the fact that there are things at stake and there are things you stand a risk of actually losing.

That's one thing that makes Abnett such a good writer, IMHO. I mean look at Eisenhorn. Alot of 'victories' there, but he also had a great deal to lose... and he did lose it all and look where its driven him, ultimately.

You must remember though, that it is a setting. Not a story. No 'hope' is required.

Personally, the darker the better, IMO.

Y'all have got it all wrong. The Tau save the boys in blue from a giant nid/chaos num fest. It's the 'trufe, I dun seent it.

Now, with less troll:
I like the direction I feel it's going. More personality again, kinda capitalizing on the game of thrones, multi faction politiking shades of grey (on an unrelated note I think 50 shades of grey is a dark eldar best seller).

The Rulebook has no real change in fluff, oddities in the allied matrix really are never addressed. The fluff has maybe evolved 5% in 6th Edition, so a lot of the concerns in this thread are no longer an issue.

Aside from a few odd random battles here and there, the only significant difference/change is the confirmation by the out of universe narrator that the encountered Tyranids are only the vanguard of the main Tyranid force. Before it had been speculated by Imperial strategists but never completely confirmed by an out of universe POV narrator.

sniperjolly wrote:Third edition was the definition of grimdark.

... There was no Horus Heresy, no tragic Freudian excuse to make Chaos or the IoM remotely sympathetic.

Minor quibble. There very definitely was a Horus Heresy in 3rd edition, since it was brought into the fluff in the 6mm game Space Marine (which is a funny story - in order to save costs on the game, the simply made one army, Space Marines, and cast them in blue and red, red was Chaos Marines, and the back story was the Horus Heresy to explain why both sides were the same). That was in the late 1980's (or early 1990's, I can't quite remember).

There was no Horus Heresy book series in 3rd edition, but some people (like myself) preferred it being a bit more mysterious.

Well I dont see whats wrong with "protecting the Tau"

I can give hundreds of examples of wars where the enemies later worked together.....

Why that is game breaking to you boggles my mind.

The USA nuked Japan yet they buy their electronic goods and gave them aid and money after the tsunami/quakes.

Thats 60 years after WW2... Thsi game takes place over thousands of years... So its not to hard to see.