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Tau are battle brothers? Sweet, Which means
psychic powers will work when allied with SM.

What I'm most upset about this ally chart is that GW allowing the Black Templars to be allies with ANY xenos period. The reason why I chose them as my second army was because they fight with big swords and hate any and all psykers and aliens, almost as much as I do =p. To see them ally with Eldar just doesn't do their fluff justice. I take a look at the vow Burn the Witch and just think to myself "huh.....Eldar".

SoliderSnake wrote:I take a look at the vow Burn the Witch and just think to myself "huh.....Eldar".

Maybe ... maybe the BT are just really hip and this vow refers to mocking psykers ...

Brother Marine Invictus deftly steered his Land Speeder Typhoon past the superheavy Scorpion, part of the Eldar Strike Force his Chapter was allied to for the duration of the oncoming battle. His obsidian power armour giving off a low whirr as the Space Marine leaned over, his brassy, vox-augmented voice boomed against the artfully ornamented hull of the alien hovertank:
"Hey xeno-witch, float faster ... Else the warp is overtaking you!"
To his side, the venerable Sergeant Fervus, a veteran of many battles, considered the words of his Battle Brother and burst into disdainful laughter, grasping Invictus' reference of the Imperium's own psykers. The two Space Marines raised their facing fists, each having taken many a wretched heretic's life, and with an audible clang rammed them against one another's ceramite-plated fingers. Welcoming the hearty feel of a good laugh before slaughter, the Land Speeder's crew drove off to face the common foe, a detachment of the hated Sisters of Battle, who had the audacity of besting their Chapter in last millennium's purgeball cup.

Lynata wrote:

SoliderSnake wrote:I take a look at the vow Burn the Witch and just think to myself "huh.....Eldar".

Maybe ... maybe the BT are just really hip and this vow refers to mocking psykers ...

Brother Marine Invictus deftly steered his Land Speeder Typhoon past the superheavy Scorpion, part of the Eldar Strike Force his Chapter was allied to for the duration of the oncoming battle. His obsidian power armour giving off a low whirr as the Space Marine leaned over, his brassy, vox-augmented voice boomed against the artfully ornamented hull of the alien hovertank:
"Hey xeno-witch, float faster ... Else the warp is overtaking you!"
To his side, the venerable Sergeant Fervus, a veteran of many battles, considered the words of his Battle Brother and burst into disdainful laughter, grasping Invictus' reference of the Imperium's own psykers. The two Space Marines raised their facing fists, each having taken many a wretched heretic's life, and with an audible clang rammed them against one another's ceramite-plated fingers. Welcoming the hearty feel of a good laugh before slaughter, the Land Speeder's crew drove off to face the common foe, a detachment of the hated Sisters of Battle, who had the audacity of besting their Chapter in last millennium's purgeball cup.

I don't care what GW says, that is now cannon!

I have no idea how official the allies table will turn out as a final product, but since we're referencing this debate about the BT's and SoB on it we must remind ourselves that the BT's and SoB were bitter enemies during the Age of Apostasy because the SoB once fought as Goge Vandire's personal guard, and the BT's helped liberate Terra. It's perfectly possible that this long standing animosity lasts into the 41st millennium, which justifies the table as it stands.

To the OP.

1. As far as I am aware, GW has never had a long lasting Xenos / Imperium alliance in its 25 years of creating somewhat homogeneous fluff. What alliances exist, usually are either temporary or fan-made.

2. I also play for fluff, but the great thing about GW's vagueness when it comes to their own cannon, is that it is about as open to interpretation as religion. I.e. Thou shall not kill, unless apperently in the case of self defense. Assuming Thou shalt ally with the Tau, it can probably be assumed that this alliance is of convenience, not a concrete pact, unless stated otherwise, which would kinda go against 25 years of grimdark tradition with no justifiable reason I can think of.

DemetriDominov wrote:I have no idea how official the allies table will turn out as a final product, but since we're referencing this debate about the BT's and SoB on it we must remind ourselves that the BT's and SoB were bitter enemies during the Age of Apostasy because the SoB once fought as Goge Vandire's personal guard, and the BT's helped liberate Terra. It's perfectly possible that this long standing animosity lasts into the 41st millennium, which justifies the table as it stands.

The Black Templars aren't the only Chapter that besieged the Imperial Palace, however. Why do they like them less than the others? Not that I think they'd hold a grudge against any of them; they know full well they were played, and have done penance for it.

But apparently they now prefer the Blood Angels and their successor Chapters, one of whom the Sisters are this close -><- to purging. Or the Wolves, who are generally just a bunch of heretics and mutants and get away with murdering Ecclesiarchy priests in cold blood.

One of the Black Templars' High Marshals and a Canoness of one of the six Major Orders of the Sisters Militant fought a demon side by side as equal brothers in arms. Black Templar Space Marines fought and died together with the Sisters in Hive Tempestora on Armageddon 3. Surely that's got to count for something? I can find no reference for the post-Apostasy SoB ever having been at odds with the BT on anything.

Maybe GW will write something up to explain this, but I'm not betting on it. Though even if they do, it's just gonna be wasted potential for what could otherwise have been a cool relationship of mutual respect.

DemetriDominov wrote:I have no idea how official the allies table will turn out as a final product, but since we're referencing this debate about the BT's and SoB on it we must remind ourselves that the BT's and SoB were bitter enemies during the Age of Apostasy because the SoB once fought as Goge Vandire's personal guard, and the BT's helped liberate Terra. It's perfectly possible that this long standing animosity lasts into the 41st millennium, which justifies the table as it stands.

1.) The SoB aren't the Brides of the Emperor, and even their predecessor ended up betraying Vandire in the end. The Sororitas hold no fond memories of him and would not hold that kind of grudge. Keep in mind that the Ordo Hereticus was established to purge the Ecclesiarchy of Vandire's legacy and base of support, so you're not going to see the army of the Ecclesiarchy very sympathetic to him after all these years of Inquisitorial investigation/purges.
2.) Even if a bitterness and grudge still existed, there's is no damn way the Templars would work with Eldar over Sororitas

Eldar are the worst possible combination for the Templars, Xenos and Psyker.

It is odd that the tau are good friends with SM. It dosen't ruin my fun, but I wonder why they are buddy buddy with SM and not IG. I can think of a few times where tau and IG fought together, quite a few tau/IG conversions and even a rule that let you take a troop of lasguns. I can only recall one time the tau and SM where in the same room without shooting each other.

Manchu wrote: The SoB could hate the BT for so flagrantly defying the Codex in a mockery of piety and the BT could hate the SoB for daring to judge them, the truest sons of Rogal Dorn who they think of as the Emperor's most loyal son.

And yet the sons of rawbutt girlyman can have a tea party/bromance with xeno scum? Yeah, those guys love there smelly codex so much.

Also, aren't the Black Templars Codex violations a secret that, at best, individuals Inquisitors have wild guesses about? Not sure, but I vaguely recall the BTs being rather secret about this, if this is about their numbers.

Lynata wrote:Also, aren't the Black Templars Codex violations a secret that, at best, individuals Inquisitors have wild guesses about? Not sure, but I vaguely recall the BTs being rather secret about this, if this is about their numbers.

In our codex it says that the actual numbers are not known do to the multiple and ever countiuning crusades, but estimates have put them around 5k, and inquisitors never get a strait answer.

EDIT: also, i'm pretty sure that throwing yourself at the enemy without any consideration for yourself or others is a violation of the codex afartes thats right..i said it.

I know I'm paraphrasing, but this is pretty close Lynata

The Black Templars aren't the only Chapter that besieged the Imperial Palace.

I can find no reference for the post-Apostasy SoB ever having been at odds with the BT on anything.

[They have] a cool relationship of mutual respect.

1. Yes, they aren't, but they are the only ones on the chart.
2.The hundreds of centuries that span between the AoA and the 41st millennia certainly have healed old wounds, but likely obscured millions of scars the Inquisition does well to hide. The transition of the brides to the Sisters of Battle is described in less than 3 sentences in the 4th edition, one does not automatically forget atrocities the likes both factions are legendary for, look no further than the legacies left behind real world crusades. That being said:
3. I agree, over eons the two organizations wills have likely aligned to such a degree their ideologies are probably so similar we often mistake them to be of the umbrella organization that they are at least a part of: the Inquisition.

Harriticus wrote:

1.) The SoB aren't the Brides of the Emperor, and even their predecessor ended up betraying Vandire in the end. The Sororitas hold no fond memories of him and would not hold that kind of grudge. Keep in mind that the Ordo Hereticus was established to purge the Ecclesiarchy of Vandire's legacy and base of support, so you're not going to see the army of the Ecclesiarchy very sympathetic to him after all these years of Inquisitorial investigation/purges.
2.) Even if a bitterness and grudge still existed, there's is no damn way the Templars would work with Eldar over Sororitas

Eldar are the worst possible combination for the Templars, Xenos and Psyker.

1. Yes and no. The Bride's inception by Goge Vandire was to uphold the purity of the Imperium he deemed appropriate. Even after they washed their hands of Vandire the only change that occurred with the creation of the Ordo Hereticus and the Adeptus Sororitas was what became appropriate. Though very true that the Ecclesiarchy wishes to distance itself as much as possible from Vandire's time, it doesn't change the possibility that the majority of BT's may still hold the grudge against the majority of SoB with ever grievance between them only pouring salt on old wounds.
2. I agree, probably didn't even happen in the AoA.

DemetriDominov wrote:1. Yes, they aren't, but they are the only ones on the chart.

Not quite ... the other three Chapters would be covered under the normal Space Marine Codex.

I maintain that it's a shame that the one Chapter that references cooperation and side-by-side-fighting with the Sisters in their Codex apparently doesn't actually get along with them, and for some unexplicable reason the Sisters have less of an issue deploying with bloodthirsty berserkers and priest-murdering heretics. That to them, the Black Templars are on the same level as Dark Eldar is just ... I dunno, totally random.

Lynata wrote:Also, aren't the Black Templars Codex violations a secret that, at best, individuals Inquisitors have wild guesses about?

The exact number of BTs is unknown to anyone but their Grandmaster (if him). But that's hardly the only thing that is flagrantly non-compliant about them. Plus, I don't think "the Ultramarines have never seen more than 1000 of them at a time" is a convincing argument that there aren't many more of them. The way that they fight, their dispersion throughout the Imperium, the history of their founding ... all these things would point to major problems for anyone but the most willfully blind.

On a separate note, let's not forget that the Emperor granted an audience to the SoB and not the BT during the climax of the Age of Apostasy. And it was the SoB and not the BT that ultimately ended the Age of Apostasy.

Rebelling against the Codex Astartes is not rebelling against the Imperium, however. It's important to make that distinction. Space Marine affairs and Imperium affairs are almost entirely separate unless Chaos gets involved.

I don't see a single reason for why the Sororitas, who's beliefs are basically whatever the Ecclisarchy cares about, would care even a tiny bit about how much a chapter adheres to the Codex Astartes.

People see to be getting hung up on the word ally. I can't explaine BT and SOB, maybe something will be in the new fluff, but the rest of them, don't see anything less than cannot ally as being friendly. For example DE may hate or fear CSM but if a DE force came out of a webway gate near a battle with some Tau and they were after Tau slaves would they attack the CSM or charge in and start helpng themselves to Tau. Equaly would the CSM attack the DE if they did not engage them, only started attacking the Tau? Not unless the DE were stupid enough to hang around after combat.

To grossly misrepresent history in order to draw a parallel:

A person reads through a WWII game. They notice that the English and the French forces can ally.

"That's ridiculous" they cry. "The English and the French have hated each other for hundreds of years! They've taken every opportunity they can to butcher one another, there's no way the English would ever help the French! Preposterous"

I'd be hard pressed to think of two forces that, when put in the right circumstances, would not fight together, even unwillingly.

If you read through the Grey Knight codex for example, there is a battle between the Tyranids and the Daemons, and the Grey Knights in the middle.

Depending on how you wanted to spin that, you could claim the Daemons "allied" with the Grey Knights!

You were on a roll until you decided to end your appeal with "everything is relative".

Kaldor wrote:To grossly misrepresent history in order to draw a parallel:

A person reads through a WWII game. They notice that the English and the French forces can ally.

"That's ridiculous" they cry. "The English and the French have hated each other for hundreds of years! They've taken every opportunity they can to butcher one another, there's no way the English would ever help the French! Preposterous"

I'd be hard pressed to think of two forces that, when put in the right circumstances, would not fight together, even unwillingly.

If you read through the Grey Knight codex for example, there is a battle between the Tyranids and the Daemons, and the Grey Knights in the middle.

Depending on how you wanted to spin that, you could claim the Daemons "allied" with the Grey Knights!

Exactly. Personaly I think the Nid's can't ally with anyone shows this clearly. They are the only force that will not ignore another army to reach there aim, they will attack anyone and anything that is not giving out the right pheromones, be that Human, Ork, Eldar, tree, frog, treefrog etc. Yes they will prioritise things that are a threat, but they will not willingly ignore any organic matter.

Everyone else will ignore one enemy if it helps them in some way. Another example, if Orks were in a fight with a Fallen DA force and a DA battle bardge happend to be passing through the sector, the DA might deepstrike a small squad in to help ensure the Fallen are stopped only to get out of there as soon as they have the leader and killed the rest rather than face an overwhelming force of Orks when they have somewhere better to be. It is a narative tool to me to show who might stand each other being there rather than showing forces having sat down and agreed to fight together.

Another example from the other way, why GK would not work with CSM.

If the GK were in a battle with Orks who had looted profane artifact and some CSM came along to also kill the Orks and re-take the artifact the GK would not work with the CSM to stop the Orks, they would attack both sides at once.

People complaining about DE/Demon alliances clearly haven't read the DE codex where it clearly explains how they can occur. Page 23, for those who care

Also, interestingly, khymerae are essentially bound daemons. So, clearly DE don't have an irrational hatred of them.

We now return to your on-topic discussion.

EDIT: Wow, I didn't know i used "clearly" so much. Apologies :/

Lynata wrote:Also, aren't the Black Templars Codex violations a secret that, at best, individuals Inquisitors have wild guesses about? Not sure, but I vaguely recall the BTs being rather secret about this, if this is about their numbers.

Black Templar are on a permanent penitence crusade, so Codex restrictions are relaxed as far as the Adeptus Terra is concerned. They don't have a permanent base, oversee no settlements, and are in no way involved in the larger politics of the Imperium.

BlaxicanX wrote:Rebelling against the Codex Astartes is not rebelling against the Imperium, however.

At the time of the near-civil war between the surviving Primarchs, Guilliman was running the Imperium. Dorn's resistance at that point was insubordination. In order to understand Codex Astartes, you must remember that it wasn't written as some esoteric internal point of Space Marine politics. It was written to ensure that the Imperium itself would never be subjected to another Horus Heresy. When Dorn finally relented, he was only somewhat on board: the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists became famously Codex-adherent (with the IF second only to the UM themselves in this regard) while the Black Templars became one of the most flagrantly non-compliant of all Chapters.

Kaldor wrote:I'd be hard pressed to think of two forces that, when put in the right circumstances, would not fight together, even unwillingly.
If you read through the Grey Knight codex for example, there is a battle between the Tyranids and the Daemons, and the Grey Knights in the middle.
Depending on how you wanted to spin that, you could claim the Daemons "allied" with the Grey Knights!

But that's the thing, though, isn't it? The way you describe that Codex example, it sounds like a three way free-for-all. Yet the rules we are presented essentially place the armies into an official alliance, a "2 vs 2" team-up that requires a combined battle-plan and coordinated tactics. That's a huge difference.

As far as that WW2 example goes, it's not entirely correct either. The French and the English have a long history of mutual conflict, but between this and WW2 lies a long period of relaxed relationships as well. Both nations were colony powers, met to discuss issues about Africa and India, traded with each other etc - they were not best buddies, but certainly not enemies. This period of a relaxed relationship is missing from 40k - there are no ~100 years during which the demons of the warp sat down at a table on Mars to talk policy with the GKs and be all diplomatic and stuff.

Not to mention that France and England as nations are concerned about their own power and wellbeing. Maybe the Imperium as governed by its manipulative High Lords might some day decide to ally with demons to pursue a greater goal, but its individual armed forces - the Marines and Sisters in particular - are far too indoctrinated and fanatical to strike such alliances on a whim. Not to mention that the military forces are less flexible than politicians are. To draw upon your comparison again, that would be like a US division in WW2 suddenly and without involvement of their president allying itself with the Wehrmacht in order to repel a Soviet advance. Now, the commanders in 40k would have the necessary independence to do so, but still they are sworn to uphold the Imperial Creed, and that one holds a rather narrow description of how to deal with heretics and aliens.

For decades, we've been told how zealous and narrow-minded the people in 40k are. Indeed, an army like the SoB and most Marine Chapters is far more likely to simply fight everyone rather than allying with one of the enemy forces, even if they clearly cannot win. To them, the concept of allying with one of the enemy factions would not mean victory for their own team, but a victory for one of the two enemies on the field. Better to use the confusion for their advantage and deal as much damage to both as possible!

However, in the spirit of conversions and cool player ideas, I can perfectly see a bunch of cool concepts supported by alliance gameplay mechanics, in addition to some alliances that may make sense in exceptional circumstances (GK and Tau? "the Inquisition did it!"). IG as Gue'vesa for a Tau army, for example. Yet if GW was aiming at supporting such freedom, why would they not let everyone ally with everybody? That way people could have had their Genestealer cults or Chaos Sisters or whatever. The current chart just looks like a heavily randomized mess that is neither fluffy nor supporting full customization. It's as if someone at GW threw a bunch of dice to determine affiliations. Or at the very least does not know much about some of the factions' previous fluff.
I dearly hope that this chart will not be supported by a redesign of the affected armies.

</rant>

Sidenote:

Omegus wrote:Black Templar are on a permanent penitence crusade, so Codex restrictions are relaxed as far as the Adeptus Terra is concerned.

Is that really the case? First time I'm hearing about officially relaxed Codex restrictions - this is GW fluff, yes?

Manchu wrote:My own pet theory about the BT is that they are crazy ass heretics, just this side of Chaos worship. And my pet theory about the SoB is that they are the faction that see through the self-deception of other factions. The SoB could hate the BT for so flagrantly defying the Codex in a mockery of piety and the BT could hate the SoB for daring to judge them, the truest sons of Rogal Dorn who they think of as the Emperor's most loyal son.

I can kinda dig this.

My own pet theory about the BT is that they are crazy ass heretics, just this side of Chaos worship. And my pet theory about the SoB is that they are the faction that see through the self-deception of other factions. The SoB could hate the BT for so flagrantly defying the Codex in a mockery of piety and the BT could hate the SoB for daring to judge them, the truest sons of Rogal Dorn who they think of as the Emperor's most loyal son.

I suppose the point is that you can make a justification for practically any type of army allying with any other - a 'what if they were stranded here, and they both had to fight against Tyranids'. That won't stop most long-term fans of the game looking at such an army and saying.. "erm.. but no." But, to me (and I think this is the most important thing) is that it just isn't '40k'. We have been told since day 1 how unwelcoming the galaxy is - how each race is out to destroy the other. It is a fundamental aspect of the 40k universe.

GW is playing a dangerous game with the allies route, by twisting the very fabric of the game universe, and you have to think it is just to knock up the sales a notch. How far reaching will this be, and are we going to start getting an alteration to the likes of the books that Black Library make? I can live with things like the Storm Raven being inserted into the Blood Angels background, and reading that it was involved in practically every mission ever conducted by the Chapter, but this is taking things a step further.

Case in point, the prospect of Marines allying themselves closely with Tau (and them being more likely to do this than Sisters of Battle would be to ally with the Black Templars), is absolute bonkers.

Pacific wrote:GW is playing a dangerous game with the allies route, by twisting the very fabric of the game universe, and you have to think it is just to knock up the sales a notch.

/slowclap
That was funny.

Case in point, the prospect of Marines allying themselves closely with Tau (and them being more likely to do this than Sisters of Battle would be to ally with the Black Templars), is absolute bonkers.

Can we at least wait for the book before declaring it absolute bonkers? For all you know, the most reasonable explanation in the world is in there.

I think pretre's probably right. I think the Necron book is a good indicator of how something you can't imagine being good can actually be good (or at least better than what was before).

Manchu wrote:I think the Necron book is a good indicator of how something you can't imagine being good can actually be good (or at least better than what was before).

Exactly. Although there are still crazy holdouts on that one. ("I loved it when they were one dimensional!!!")

pretre wrote:Can we at least wait for the book before declaring it absolute bonkers? For all you know, the most reasonable explanation in the world is in there.

Yeah, let's just wait a bit before we blow up.

For all we know, the ally tiers exist solely to represent just how easy two forces adjust to their ally's combat style for the duration of that one tabletop battle, without new fluff coming into it at any point. See below for examples of why the current matrix might make sense.

So Tau and Vanilla Space Marines would actually be 'battle brothers' because they are familiar with how the other side fights (due to the constant wars in the galactic East), and have an easy time planning around each other. And because they are essentially two forces of professional warriors with enough tactical flexibility to ensure decent cooperation, even despite the fact that there's still bad blood between them.

On the other hand, Black Templars and sisters would have a harder time coordinating because both sides are very dogmatic and very stubborn, and even a simple strategy briefing can drag on for long times. Their ideas on how to carry out the Emperor's will are equally blunt, but somewhat different - the Templars prefer to go forward, kill every enemy in sight and look for more enemies, while the Sisters can be more thorough in their approaches. They are both very, very stubborn when it comes to defending those ideas, and likely to draw each other into lengthy debates.

Also for the Black Templars, see the explanation for Tau and Vanilla Marines.

The Tyranids have no allies for the simple fact that nobody can actually communicate or coordinate with them, rendering joint military operations impossible.

Omegus wrote:

Lynata wrote:Also, aren't the Black Templars Codex violations a secret that, at best, individuals Inquisitors have wild guesses about? Not sure, but I vaguely recall the BTs being rather secret about this, if this is about their numbers.

Black Templar are on a permanent penitence crusade, so Codex restrictions are relaxed as far as the Adeptus Terra is concerned. They don't have a permanent base, oversee no settlements, and are in no way involved in the larger politics of the Imperium.

There is something incorrect with every bit of this...BT do have fortress monestaries. A bunch of them, infact every world they take has one. Now do they garrison them all? No of course not but they know where they are and they will go back to them if they need to and they will drive out whoever is occupying it at the time. Also BT do involve themselves in the imperium's buisness otherwise Armageddon would have been lost. Helbrecht was on the verge of clensing the Ghoul stars when he had to redirect to Armageddon to stop Ghazy. I want to say it was something like 3000 marines got reassigned.

Manchu wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Rebelling against the Codex Astartes is not rebelling against the Imperium, however.

At the time of the near-civil war between the surviving Primarchs, Guilliman was running the Imperium. Dorn's resistance at that point was insubordination. In order to understand Codex Astartes, you must remember that it wasn't written as some esoteric internal point of Space Marine politics. It was written to ensure that the Imperium itself would never be subjected to another Horus Heresy. When Dorn finally relented, he was only somewhat on board: the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists became famously Codex-adherent (with the IF second only to the UM themselves in this regard) while the Black Templars became one of the most flagrantly non-compliant of all Chapters.

Ok Guilliman did not run the Imperium by himself, he had become ONE of the high lords and thus had the same power as one of them. He wrote the Codex DURING the heresy and planned on attempting to enforce it before he had the percieved power to do so. One high lord cannot or at least should not make a decree that speaks for them all. When Guillman attempted to do so he had done nothing in the defence of Terra and thus really rubbed those that had been there and died fighting there the wrong way. Dorn wasn't going to relent until Guilliman (by himself) ordered that the IF vessels should be fired upon by the navy. So who was the one threatening another civil war? The IF weren't going to open fire it was Guilliman. It was to prevent another war and essentially destroy the imperium that Dorn relented because he favored a surviving mankind.
The BT feel like they (as part of the IF) failed the emperor when the palaced was breached since they promised him that it couldn't be. To attone for this they have gone on their eternal crusade taking the notion that the best defence is a good offense.