flyers have broken this game.

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**Grey Templar**

Then you must never allow them to let their IG ride in Chimeras and Space Marines ride Rhinos or Razorbacks. Eldar can't ride in Wave Serpents or Falcons. And Dark Eldar cannot ride in Venoms or Raiders. Orks may not ride in Trukks, Battlewagons, or Looted Wagons.

**lordybarbo**

Got it guys! Thanks for your help!

On page 78, BRB, in big letters, it reads, "some vehicles can carry infantry...," "a transport can carry a single infantry unit..." and only "infantry models can embark upon transports."

For giggles, I checked. A Night Scythe is indeed a transport, and Warriors are, you guessed it, infantry.

So I guess the fat ogre engineers were wrong after all...

Thanks so much for playing...Hyraam, show them what they've won...a new Night Scythe...but you can't drive it...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Then you must never allow them to let their IG ride in Chimeras and Space Marines ride Rhinos or Razorbacks. Eldar can't ride in Wave Serpents or Falcons. And Dark Eldar cannot ride in Venoms or Raiders. Orks may not ride in Trukks, Battlewagons, or Looted Wagons.

Nice, Grey Templar!

Great minds think alike, as that is, or was, my exact argument.

I think we figured it out; we will not have to worry about the fat ogre foolishness anymore, now that reason and rules, as opposed to reaching and revising, prevail.

**Godless-Mimicry**

lordybarbo wrote:Ok, you will not believe this...

1) I was in the game store today, and they (people in the store) told me that half of my necron infantry had to be deployed and that it could not be held in reserve. I looked to the reserve rules, on page 124, and it says "a unit and its dedicated transport" form "a single unit" for reserve purposes. They said I still had to deploy half of the infantry, even though, my night scythes, upon [or through] which they were deployed, had to go into reserves. Do I have to deal with this or can my infantry go to reserve with their transport? I ignore that, right, as my dedicated transports and infantry are one unit, and are forced to reserves?

This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.

lordybarbo wrote:2) The next bit of insanity is this: They {the people, unwashed masses, or fat ogres or some damn thing, at the game store} said that my Newcron infantry could not mount the night scythes. They said that the entry for night scythes, in the Newcron book, pages 51 and 91, says that it "has a transport capacity of 15. It can carry jump infantry...and jetbikes [with no provision yet on how]." It does not specifically state the straight leg infantry can ride. Even though it clearly says newcron warriors "may take either...night scythe as a dedicated transport." How can they argue that the night scythe cannot transport the warriors?

Is it just me or are these people just reaching? We had to endure the "Death star" now they must endure the "Scythe flying circus!"

This is not correct however, of course they can be mounted in them.

**Armadeus**

lordybarbo wrote:KingCracker, you are right, BUT, in classic GW style, we are left to speculate, as it does not specifically say the infantry can ride their own transport.

Again, RAW vs RAI...

Yes, they were making up crap and looking dumb, but they do, sadly, have a point.

1) As per the rules they form one unit, but what if one half has to go to reserves? I say round up or ignore it, as they are on dedicated transports, and, hell, I paid the points for them. They should be able to ride.

2) It does not specifically say the newcron warriors "can" ride. It says jump packers "can" and jetbikes "can" but it does not say infantry "can."

Do you think I am blowing this out of proportion, or do I have a legitimate gripe?

I guess you figured me out, but I think they are full of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar,

I agree with you, but their argument is that the rules do not specifically say infantry, or the dedicated squad, can ride their own transport.

How do you argue with logic, or fat ogres, like that?

You argue with them, by pointing out that a rhino doesn't SAY that infantry can ride in it, but no one who has EVER played 40k would say my tacs can't ride it. You also show them the page where a unit and it's dedicated transport count as 1 unit for reserves, and because the flyers have to be reserves, they can be held in there flyers. You can also (if you have it) show them a WD necron battle report where they held there warriors or imortals, in there flyers, in reserves.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
lordybarbo wrote:Ok, you will not believe this...

1) I was in the game store today, and they (people in the store) told me that half of my necron infantry had to be deployed and that it could not be held in reserve. I looked to the reserve rules, on page 124, and it says "a unit and its dedicated transport" form "a single unit" for reserve purposes. They said I still had to deploy half of the infantry, even though, my night scythes, upon [or through] which they were deployed, had to go into reserves. Do I have to deal with this or can my infantry go to reserve with their transport? I ignore that, right, as my dedicated transports and infantry are one unit, and are forced to reserves?

This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.

Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?

**KingCracker**

Agreed with the white dwarf as a last resort. I had a PDF copy of a white dwarf match between Orks and something else, showing that in the WD battle, the KFF did indeed grant vehicles a 4+ cover save. AS WELL AS a PDF copy of a changes to 5th edition cover sheet from GW that said the KFF granted 4+ to vehicles and a 5+ to non vehicle units. That was such a huge fething debate that it got stupid. So, there ya go. 40K just shows that people like GWAR! are still alive and well. fething ignorant jerk offs.

**Luide**

White Dwarf battlereports get rules wrong so often that they're not credible source.

For example, see WD battle report where they play Chaos Space Marine Daemon Princes as FMC instead of Jump MC.

**sudojoe**

Luide wrote:White Dwarf battlereports get rules wrong so often that they're not credible source.

For example, see WD battle report where they play Chaos Space Marine Daemon Princes as FMC instead of Jump MC.

I thought they were FMC?

**Godless-Mimicry**

Armadeus wrote:Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?

I'd have to read the Droppod Assault rules in the SM Codex, as they may make allowances for this sort of thing, I just don't know the exact ruling until I check it.

**lordybarbo**

Nicely done Armadeus!

I knew someone here would be able to reason it out.

Tomorrow I will call GW and also send another email to the faq people.

Thanks!

**puree**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.

Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.

If have 5 warrior squads and scythes then I have 5 units, as the warriors and the scythe count as a single unit. 5 units must start in reserve and do not count to 50% deployment, so I needn't deploy anything, as (5 - 5)/2 = 0.

**lordybarbo**

puree wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
This is correct (what they said, not what you said, and it is depending on the rest of the list). Scythes have to go in reserve, and yes for deciding reserves units and their dedicated transport are counted as one, but none of that equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve and thus not counting. So if putting all your Warriors into reserve puts more than half your army in reserve then it is illegal. Usually not a big deal anyway.

Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.

If have 5 warrior squads and scythes then I have 5 units, as the warriors and the scythe count as a single unit. 5 units must start in reserve and do not count to 50% deployment, so I needn't deploy anything, as (5 - 5)/2 = 0.

Yes, exactly. BUT you are forced to deploy something, so you don't get tabled.

I intend to do something like that, but I will deploy tomb spyders to prevent that.

**puree**

lordybarbo wrote:
puree wrote:
Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.

If have 5 warrior squads and scythes then I have 5 units, as the warriors and the scythe count as a single unit. 5 units must start in reserve and do not count to 50% deployment, so I needn't deploy anything, as (5 - 5)/2 = 0.

Yes, exactly. BUT you are forced to deploy something, so you don't get tabled.

That being a different argument, not related to what you are required to deploy.

**lordybarbo**

Yes, it is different; sorry.

Yes, required deployment versus the different options available...

**jcressell**

Flyers have their advatages but defiantly not broken at all

**Armadeus**

lordybarbo wrote:Nicely done Armadeus!

I knew someone here would be able to reason it out.

Tomorrow I will call GW and also send another email to the faq people.

Thanks!

Glad I could help.

**MFletch**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Armadeus wrote:Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?

I'd have to read the Droppod Assault rules in the SM Codex, as they may make allowances for this sort of thing, I just don't know the exact ruling until I check it.

It is under deepstrike in the rulebook. There is a sentence that excludes all models that are in drop pods from reserve counts.

**Godless-Mimicry**

puree wrote:Not how I read it. Units that must start in reserve do not count to the half deployment. units and their dedicated transport count as a single unit for this purpose. The dedicated transport must start in reserve so the transport and the unit that goes in it do not count towards half deployment.

This is the equivalent of saying 2 + 2 = 5, because none of that stuff equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve.

MFletch wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Armadeus wrote:Then, if I have a drop pod army, must I still have half my army on the table?

I'd have to read the Droppod Assault rules in the SM Codex, as they may make allowances for this sort of thing, I just don't know the exact ruling until I check it.
It is under deepstrike in the rulebook. There is a sentence that excludes all models that are in drop pods from reserve counts.

Thanks for that. Saved me the trouble. Also gives more creedance to my argument above, as why would they go to lengths to exclude Drop Pod units but not units with dedicated flyers?

**KingCracker**

sudojoe wrote:
Luide wrote:White Dwarf battlereports get rules wrong so often that they're not credible source.

For example, see WD battle report where they play Chaos Space Marine Daemon Princes as FMC instead of Jump MC.

I thought they were FMC?

*apparently they are jump MC. Besides, that is a fall back that anyone that doesnt agree with how rules actually work use. "Oh yea, well they get rules wrong, so therefore the rules dont ever work that way and your wrong" Sure.........

**MFletch**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Thanks for that. Saved me the trouble. Also gives more creedance to my argument above, as why would they go to lengths to exclude Drop Pod units but not units with dedicated flyers?

That is a whole different discussion. They hid a sentence in that is there just to allow drop pods to have a full reserve army. This is just not cricket, making an exception for just one unit.

Also do not get me involved.

DT and their unit count as a "single unit for these purposes". As a unit it has to start in reserve, so doesn't count to the total. It is fairly clear. It does mean you can only have one IC and you will auto lose first turn if you have just necron flyers. Take some orks to keep you alive reserve the rest. In fact I would be happy smacking down in a drop pod of runepriest, Logan and rockfist with your necron flyers, they just have to stay alive until the end where your flyers can jump onto objectives.
Crazy ideas about space wolves and necrons do not make me any less correct.

**puree**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

none of that stuff equates to the Warriors being forced into reserve.

The dedicated transport in this case must start in reserve.
A unit with its dedicated transport must be counted as a single unit for purposes of counting what you must deploy.
A unit that must start in reserve does not count for determining what you must deploy.
As the combined 'single' unit must start in reserve it does not count for what you must deploy.

Indeed, whilst I haven't checked it up, I don't think you can split a unit and its DT so that one starts depoyed and the other is in reserve. Following your argument you would be forced to do that, which by my current understanding would be illegal (correct me if I'm wrong on splitting the unit, one to the board the other to reserve).

Maybe you could explain how you are coming to the conclusion you are. Then we can see why we are seeing things differently.

**Godless-Mimicry**

puree wrote:The dedicated transport in this case must start in reserve.
A unit with its dedicated transport must be counted as a single unit for purposes of counting what you must deploy.
A unit that must start in reserve does not count for determining what you must deploy.
As the combined 'single' unit must start in reserve it does not count for what you must deploy.

Adding the word 'must' into rules where it isn't there in the book doesn't make you right. It doesn't say units and their ride 'must' count as one, it doesn't say units 'must' start in their ride, it doesn't say a unit with a ride that must go in reserve 'must' also go in reserves, it doesn't say a unit and their transport 'must' both be deployed or in reserve together. Which is where the issue is; people are acting like they can do it because it is mandatory, and that's the excuse they are using, but it isn't mandatory, they are choosing to do something that the rules as written disallow.

**lordybarbo**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
puree wrote:The dedicated transport in this case must start in reserve.
A unit with its dedicated transport must be counted as a single unit for purposes of counting what you must deploy.
A unit that must start in reserve does not count for determining what you must deploy.
As the combined 'single' unit must start in reserve it does not count for what you must deploy.

Adding the word 'must' into rules where it isn't there in the book doesn't make you right. It doesn't say units and their ride 'must' count as one, it doesn't say units 'must' start in their ride, it doesn't say a unit with a ride that must go in reserve 'must' also go in reserves, it doesn't say a unit and their transport 'must' both be deployed or in reserve together. Which is where the issue is; people are acting like they can do it because it is mandatory, and that's the excuse they are using, but it isn't mandatory, they are choosing to do something that the rules as written disallow.

Objection your honor!

If it could please the bench, on page 80, paragraph one, line one, under flyers, states, "flyers MUST begin the game in reserve..."

On page 124, of the Reserves rule, paragraph two, line three, states, "Units that MUST start the game in reserve..."

On the same page, your honor, lines 5-6, simply declares, "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

With all due respect, I must ask the bench for a directed verdict, as my client has proven his position beyond a reasonable doubt and the point has been made "fairly clear."

**puree**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:It doesn't say units and their ride 'must' count as one,

Effectively it does, it says they count as one for these purposes, it never gives you any option to not count them as one. There is no such wording as 'may', 'can', 'choose'. They simply are counted as one for reserve deployment purposes.

By my reading that means that if one element of the duo must start in reserve then neither unit counts towards the 50%. And that, whilst I openly admit I may be wrong, I think it means that they must both deploy or both not deploy at the start, as they count as a single unit.

**heckler**

it has been FAQ'd that a unit may deploy normally instead of using it's drop pod.

however, i do agree that they would not count as a unit deployed normally due to being counted as the same unit as the drop pod.

**MFletch**

heckler wrote:it has been FAQ'd that a unit may deploy normally instead of using it's drop pod.

however, i do agree that they would not count as a unit deployed normally due to being counted as the same unit as the drop pod.

The rule says any model in a drop pod. Not just the unit. Drop pods are special, for some reason.
[I know I have said the same thing above, but anyway]