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Phanatik wrote:My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.
Your flaw in logic is thinking that orks are the only solution to flyers. Just because something is white, does not mean everything else is black.
DE have some strong solutions to flyers. Are you looking for solutions to how to deal with them?
Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Ciao,
"Stop worrying about it and just get naked." - Mrs. Phanatik
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." -Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Frazzled - "When the Great Wienie comes, you will have a favored place among his Chosen. "
MachineSpirit - "Quick Reply has been temporarily disabled due to a recent warning you received."
valace2 wrote:
How can a person running Tau for instance go to a tournament an expect to do well? They have no anti air, they can take a fortification, but what do you think will be targeted first? Then the railguns an then the missile crisis teams, now I know tau are not a good example, but take Eldar what anti air do they have an those bright lances are the first thing to go. now Tau an Eldar can take allies but what are you going to get maybe 1 flyer to help in the air?
Tau, Eldar, and DE(lesser extent) have all been gimped in more serious ways than just the addition of fliers. Until GW comes up with a serious FAQ or a new Codex for Xenos(Orks are fine though) they wont be competitive in a tournament. The new 6th edition rules were built around marine armies, making sure not to buff or gimp them too much. IG are fine in the shooting eviroment. Newcrons were created with 6th in mind. Orks are resilient as always.
I'm sorry. Have you fielded vendettas against broadsides behind an Aegis with a quad-gun? Oh no wait, that was me, and the TL Railguns performed quite fine, actually.
Anyone QQ'ing could also go to forgeworld. Their flyers are stellar, and most armies can field one (at least) of them.
Noone said this hobby was cheap, so that's hardly an argument either.
"I can't afford to buy an aegis line or anti-flyer units, so flyers are broken" sounds just about as ridiculous as "I can't afford more than 20 guardsmen so anything above the 250 point bracket is stupid and needs to be removed". Pay to play, friends.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Phanatik wrote:
Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Ciao,
Cover the aegis defense line in chains, pikes, and cadian corpses?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 16:43:43
Dakka member since 2012/01/09 16:44:06
Rick's Cards&Games 1000pt Tourney: 2nd Legion's Winter Showdown 1850: 2nd Place Snake Eyes 1000pt Mixed Doubles: 3rd Place
Elysian 105th Skylance W:37-L:3-D:6 in 6th Edition
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
A local Eldar player made some eldar shield thingies to represent Aegis Defense lines.
Its basically 4 clear plastic rectangles washed with a blue wash for the long sections and 4 shield generators for the small sections(all roughly the same size as the Imperial Aegis defense line)
He also has a Eldar Weapons Platform thats been given 4 Shurican Catapults(arranged in a quad formation) to be his Quad Gun.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I take your 6 flyer list and raise you 12 hydra flak tanks. It costs me the same but gives me more targets then you can easily take out. And since all of your flyer are coming in piece meal and my flak tanks are in 6 different squads very few of your planes will survive more then one turn in contact with me. Add lots of terrain to protect my stuff and that's more or less game over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 16:58:02
Not too worried about flyers myself... I know, I'm a DE, I have skyfire options. But it's actually for the reasons many have mentioned.
Out of the 3 deployment types, 2 of them I could easily boost into the uncomfortable zone for zooming flyers by turn 2 usually. Sure they're tough to kill, but if they got nothing to shoot at, why should I care about them? Like others have said, if I wipe out your ground units; which would be a lot easier thanks to the abundance of flyers taking up all the points and slots; and your flyers are in reserve, then I win the game, congrats on those undamaged flyers though!
Why would anyone go into hover mode in dangerous situation? Because if they're on T3 against any in-your-face army with a worthy general who knows how to exploit the zooming limitations, that's the only way they'll get another turn of shooting.
Of course, I can't speak for gunline armies, but with the massive assault nerf? I say good news it is that gunline get some disadvantages in something!
I'm actually gonna put my jetfighter into the "will field you once in a while" pile, because of the zooming restrictions.
Also, for the 'no-one will take Hydras because they can't shoot at ground targets!!!!' crowd:
They can still shoot Skimmers just fine IIRC
Eldar: All skimmers
DE : All skimmers
Tau: All skimmers
Plenty of targets for them to be shooting at, unless you are at a yawnworthy Marine Vs Marine Vs Marine tournament..
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Phanatik wrote:Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Understood. Some day's I don't feel like 'logic and critical thinking' debate as well.
So there are really two different ways you can do this.
You can either make a bastion that has been captured by DE to be used as a staging base. At which point just throw the nets and spikes over it to make it a bit more 'Dark Eldar' like.
Or if you want to go for broke, you could make a floating DE fortress kind of item. Use the bastion model. Make it floating like a monolith. Cut the top so its got spikes and edges, and use raider platorms for the top parapit. Its a lot more in-debth but would be very cool.
No joke and since the hydra is still twin linked and can shoot its hull mount at the ground just fine why not. Also since it can shoot at flying monsters it makes it one of the better options for taking down some really nasty stuff.
Still not sure how the meta will pan out. From what I am seeing balanced is the way to go. Everything has its counter in 6th. The problem is that if you go to specialized you run the risk of either winning big or losing big. There are flyers, tanks, MCs, FMCs, psykers, challanges, fortifications, deepstrikers, overwatch, snipers, allies, ect, ect, ect...
And this time there is no "Mech is King" type of archtype list that is good against everything. I think people are going to start covering thier bases and being much more defensive for at least the first year.
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White Ninja wrote:No joke and since the hydra is still twin linked and can shoot its hull mount at the ground just fine why not. Also since it can shoot at flying monsters it makes it one of the better options for taking down some really nasty stuff.
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 17:17:49
Gloomfang wrote:
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Skyfire means the Hydra shoots at Flyers, flying MCs AND Skimmers with it's BS value. It can still shoot at anything else but only at BS 1.
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
Gloomfang wrote:
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Skyfire means the Hydra shoots at Flyers, flying MCs AND Skimmers with it's BS value. It can still shoot at anything else but only at BS 1.
Which means you STILL average more than 1 hit per turn, as it's twin-linked.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Gloomfang wrote:
They hydra can't shoot stuff on the ground anymore. It is a skyfire weapon and doesn't have Intercepter. Snap shots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Skyfire means the Hydra shoots at Flyers, flying MCs AND Skimmers with it's BS value. It can still shoot at anything else but only at BS 1.
I meant can't shoot normally at stuff on the ground. Its why I said Snapshots only at non-flyers or skimmers.
Phanatik wrote:Logic is "a go for orbit" this fine Friday morning.
I purchased two Jet Fighters months ago and have been using them, simply because the model was amazing. So there is that.
Last weekend I used fortifications etc, but it goes against my purist grain to use Imperial terrain with my DE. Artistic ideas for DE [fortifications] terrain welcome!
Understood. Some day's I don't feel like 'logic and critical thinking' debate as well.
So there are really two different ways you can do this.
You can either make a bastion that has been captured by DE to be used as a staging base. At which point just throw the nets and spikes over it to make it a bit more 'Dark Eldar' like.
Or if you want to go for broke, you could make a floating DE fortress kind of item. Use the bastion model. Make it floating like a monolith. Cut the top so its got spikes and edges, and use raider platorms for the top parapit. Its a lot more in-debth but would be very cool.
Thanks for the links!
best,
"Stop worrying about it and just get naked." - Mrs. Phanatik
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." -Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Frazzled - "When the Great Wienie comes, you will have a favored place among his Chosen. "
MachineSpirit - "Quick Reply has been temporarily disabled due to a recent warning you received."
Flyer-based armies are hilariously easy to ignore.
My game yesterday was incredibly amusing for me, because I spent the majority of it with my tiny little Venoms using ruins to block line of sight, my Reavers turbo-boosting for their 3+ cover and my Ravagers picking their noses while my opponent tried uselessly to maneuver his stormravens into a good firing position. Any time he got even close, I just flat-outed into his rear arc so he couldn't fire on me next turn. The only shots he got were when he deep-striked, and trying to deep-strike every other turn resulted in some nasty scatters and caused him to lose a whole third of his army thanks to a 1 on the mishap table.
The only army that can flier spam to a frightening level is Necrons, and that's only because Tesla are good for killing troops and infantry. If my opponent tries to spam vendettas, kay. He'll kill the crap out of the skimmers he can get shots at. My troops claim the objectives. If he tries to spam stormravens? Kay. Same story. The skimmers he manages to shoot at die, the troops claim objectives.
I haven't run into DE flier spam yet, but dear god that's a horrible idea.
In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
If he spams vendettas he will likely kill every skimmer in your army and then hover remove vets flat out off the board then flame everything. Everyone seems to overlook the fact that you can always flat out a hovering flyer off of the board after letting out your army men. I may lose a turn of shooting but you lose your best chance at my flyer.
I think that OP's concerns are legitimate but I do not agree with him... Flyers are very powerful, without dubt but they have an essential limit: They aren't too much useful at taking objectives... So a Flyer spam list risks to run short of bodies to get these damn objectives... For example 3 Stormravens are 600/615 points without any upgrade... Considering that there aren't cheap units that you can ride in them, you soon end with a 1500 points army composed exclusively by these 3 flyers and the transported troops. all the enemy has to do is to wipe out the transported units then your flyers are useless...
For this reason I prefer a single storm-raven, and a single flyer can absorb a lot of fire but it can be taken down by almost every army...
You always have to consider the objective based missions before stating and how the supposedly Broken unit relates to them... For example, my Draigo unit in this edition is nigh unstoppable... Those pallies can tke down almost everything (wraithlords, Daemon princes, hordes, walkers, even TH/SS Termies, given the absurd fire power they can dish before an assualt) and will survive to almost everything... But I keep losing games... because this uber unit, even if it's very funny, is pretty much useless in Objectives missions... The same applies to flyers...
Labmouse is correct on all counts. While his ork example is rather extreme, an army with 6 flyers has a relatively large "footprint". The flyers also can only pivot 90 degrees once before they move, and must move at least 18" from their current spot. Knowing this, it's possible (regardless of the army you're playing) to do the following:
1) Spread your forces out in such a way that there is nowhere for the flyer to place their base.
2) Move in such a way that you are behind the flyer after they move 18+".
At this point, the flyers can hover to try to get some better mobility, but they still will not be able to place their base where you don't want them to, and you will be able to fire at them or assault normally in your next turn. Or, the enemy will be forced to flat out their flyer to get off the board and try to come in for another attack run. In either case, you have neutralized the threat for that turn.
Try actually proxying some flyer bases and try moving them around the board and you'll see how limited their mobility and firepower can be, especially when alot of them don't have 360 degree fire arcs.
Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.
Lokas wrote:Flyer-based armies are hilariously easy to ignore.
My game yesterday was incredibly amusing for me, because I spent the majority of it with my tiny little Venoms using ruins to block line of sight, my Reavers turbo-boosting for their 3+ cover and my Ravagers picking their noses while my opponent tried uselessly to maneuver his stormravens into a good firing position. Any time he got even close, I just flat-outed into his rear arc so he couldn't fire on me next turn. The only shots he got were when he deep-striked, and trying to deep-strike every other turn resulted in some nasty scatters and caused him to lose a whole third of his army thanks to a 1 on the mishap table.
The only army that can flier spam to a frightening level is Necrons, and that's only because Tesla are good for killing troops and infantry. If my opponent tries to spam vendettas, kay. He'll kill the crap out of the skimmers he can get shots at. My troops claim the objectives. If he tries to spam stormravens? Kay. Same story. The skimmers he manages to shoot at die, the troops claim objectives.
I haven't run into DE flier spam yet, but dear god that's a horrible idea.
In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
Isn't turbo boosting a 4+ save now instead of 3+ like before? Or do they have something that increases their cover save?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/07/27 18:49:51
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Lokas wrote:In other words, if my opponent spams fliers, I'm going to smiiile, because that's going to be a very frustrating game for him and it's going to be hilarious for me. I'm going to download benny hill music to my phone just for situations such as this.
This would be the most incredibad game in the history of 40k.
You'd have to make sure that you actually had your units doing loops around the board in their movement phase, and have your own fliers run off one side of the board only to reappear the next turn on the other side.
Behold, fliers!
whitedragon wrote:Labmouse is correct on all counts. While his ork example is rather extreme, an army with 6 flyers has a relatively large "footprint". The flyers also can only pivot 90 degrees once before they move, and must move at least 18" from their current spot. Knowing this, it's possible (regardless of the army you're playing) to do the following:
1) Spread your forces out in such a way that there is nowhere for the flyer to place their base.
2) Move in such a way that you are behind the flyer after they move 18+".
LOL!
Welcome to the world of pre-measuring. Do all fliers have hover? If they don't, what would happen to them if they couldn't move? Would they be forced to crash land?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 18:58:54
Tell me that there isn't a familiar pattern there....
Automatically Appended Next Post: A Flyer that can't hover and can't move is instakilled.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/07/27 19:01:22
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Tell me that there isn't a familiar pattern there....
Automatically Appended Next Post: A Flyer that can't hover and can't move is instakilled.
hmmm
watch the Chaos flyer wont be able to hover either. It's the emperor's psykic might that allows them to hover.
Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++
Only thing that could keep those ugly-ass bricks in the air..
(Vendetta/Valk excluded, a sthey might feasibly fly..)
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, its going to be very rare that a flyer can't Zoom 36" off the board.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Phanatik wrote:My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.
I'm in the same boat: My other armies are both WIP (and don't look like they'll be finished soon, and the tau wouldn't be able to deal with flyers anyway). What I'm doing is triple ravager, multiple venoms with blasterborn, Aegis defense line with quad-gun, and crossed fingers that all of that will stand a chance at hitting. The rest of the army is built around taking out other stuff, because that's normally what'll win the game.
Anyway, I would suggest making an entirely different thread for this, and there are better DE tacticians than me (or at least there were in 5e: try asking Thor665.
Anyone QQ'ing could also go to forgeworld. Their flyers are stellar, and most armies can field one (at least) of them.
3200 points 
> 5400 points
2500 points 
5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters 
