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valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.

1. So players can afford things like Land Raiders/Monoliths but not fliers? Fail to see how. Also, the Necron fliers and new Stormtalon etc, are only a few quid more than a Rhino and less than a Predator. That argument doesn't hold much water i'm afraid.
I can sympathise with people not wanting to spend money on units they don't like because they're being made to think that they need to buy them to have any chance of winning a game; that is false and shame on you and people like you for perpetuating myths like that.

2. The only way I can think of to run all six would be a Marine list with Stormravens in HS/Dedicated and then a squad of three Vendetta's as allies... that's about 1000 points of fliers, plus the mandatory two HQ's and three troops (minimum of what, another 350-400 points). Good luck in any games that aren't killpoints...

3. It's not called air POWAH for nothing.

This thread is silly.

Is your 3 Vendetta/3 Stormraven list going to be broken when you play against regular folks at your FLGS? Yes. It's like bringing a knife to a gunfight. This isn't new, and is no different than someone in 5e bringing a tweaked-out BA Razorspam list against his friend's fluffy IG company. Tone down your list for your local environment, unless you like being TFG.

Is it broken in any objective sense? Only in that access to skyfire is still limited for most people. This list will struggle against any currently competitive list, the Tyranid psyker spam list for example would make very short work of it.

evilbishop wrote:

valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.

1. So players can afford things like Land Raiders/Monoliths but not fliers? Fail to see how. Also, the Necron fliers and new Stormtalon etc, are only a few quid more than a Rhino and less than a Predator. That argument doesn't hold much water i'm afraid.
I can sympathise with people not wanting to spend money on units they don't like because they're being made to think that they need to buy them to have any chance of winning a game; that is false and shame on you and people like you for perpetuating myths like that.

2. The only way I can think of to run all six would be a Marine list with Stormravens in HS/Dedicated and then a squad of three Vendetta's as allies... that's about 1000 points of fliers, plus the mandatory two HQ's and three troops (minimum of what, another 350-400 points). Good luck in any games that aren't killpoints...

3. It's not called air POWAH for nothing.

How many lists have you seen with multiple land raiders in them? An yea the storm tallon is a cheaper flyer good thing for 20pts my basic grey Knights can kill it. An oh yea GW raised the price on the raven to over 70i believe.

valace2 wrote:

Stoffer wrote:I hate threads like these so much.

Flyers aren't broken. If you're killing your local competition it's because none of them are capable enough at list building. That's not saying they're not good, but if you're running a 6 flyer list, there are certainly ways of bringing them down.

This response is gonna be long. Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.

The trouble with flyer spam is the lack of board control and damage output againt infantry (to prevent board control). The best example of a list to take advantage of this weakness (without taking the obviuos counters) would be the green tide. Swarm the board, spread out to limit the already restricted movement of flyers and camp objectives. This type of list often has many lootas which are also good AA. The Vendettas 9 lascannons probably only get to fire 3 times in a game and will be tottaly inefectual against massed infantry.

A squadron of 3 vendettas is not good because;

-9 twinlinked lascannons sounds great but they will usually only get 3 turns on the board to shoot.

-They all have to shoot the same thing- you will massively overkill 3 tanks in a game. Against many armies that is pointless.

-They have to maintain coherency and follow the flyer rules- you need to find an area of board 18-36" away, within your 90 degree pivot, with enogh space to fit 3 fling bases and that gets you shots on something worth putting 9 twin- linked lasccanons into. Your opponent also has to be completley unaware of these restrictions or not have the gumption to take advantage of them.

-If you do come up againt something like 45 Lootas, 3 Anni barges or other flyers there is a risk of your 3 Flyers and embarked squads being decimated in one go.


Pro tip- Dont announce that the game is broken before even playing a game with the supposedly broken list.

How many lists have you seen with multiple land raiders in them? An yea the storm tallon is a cheaper flyer good thing for 20pts my basic grey Knights can kill it. An oh yea GW raised the price on the raven to over 70i believe.

I've seen more multiple Land Raider lists than I have multiple flyer lists...

Right. Your basic Grey Knights can kill an AV11 flier... what was the point of this thread again? Flyers broken omg omg omg.

So? My Necron Warriors, who by the way are basically the red shirts of the necrons, can kill just about any vehicle given enough time.
I fail to see what your point is.

Stoffer wrote:I hate threads like these so much.

I hate replies like yours so much. (see how easy that is?)

Did you notice the OP commenting on the $$ cost of buying new flyers or anti-flyers?
It's amusing that GW makes the models that cost the most much better, and some people will just jump lockstep to purchase them.

I guess someone that already has good anti-flyer units in their codex won't mind the change. But the ones that don't, don't have the right to complain about being left in the cold?

The problem will be balanced out when new codices come out? Have none of the people that say that never complained because GW is so slow putting out new codices? Hello! I guess the problem will be solved 10 years from now? (but by then it will be called warhammer 40k fantasy 7th edition. who wouldn't love hydras in space?)

And for what it's worth, I think "swoopers" may be even more of a problem than flyers.

Best,

valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Phanatik wrote:

And for what it's worth, I think "swoopers" may be even more of a problem than flyers.

Doubt it, with the grounding tests.

labmouse42 wrote:

Don't feed the trolls

Whoops...

valace2 wrote:Build me a list that can beat three vendettas an three storm ravens with no flyers an a fortification.

Cannot....resist.....

1) You must either be a BA player or GK player with IG allies. If you go absolute bare bones with nothing else, your at 1405 points. That would be 10 marines, 1 librarian, 1 tech-priest, and 1 naked vet squad. Since you have to start with 2 of those squads on the board, realistically your going to be at a minimum of 1500 points.

Now, to make a list that will clobber that 6 flyer list into the ground....
HQ
Warboss in Mega-Armor
Warboss in Mega-Armor

Troops
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob
30 shoota boys w/3 rokkit launchers + PK nob

Elites
5 Lootas
5 Lootas
5 Lootas

Fast Attack
Deffkopta w/TL Rokkits
Deffkopta w/TL Rokkits

The basic strategy is frighteningly simple
* Walk up to your 11 models on the board and kill them. 11 models < 139 orks
* Flyers cannot tank shock. Flyers cannot stop over enemy models. Spread out the remaining orks so the flyers must zoom off the board.
* If you drop the 10 vets from the valk, they will get eaten up by orks.

This results in the following
* Your flyers all zoom off the board. All the models on the board are dead -- you lose the game
* Your flyers kill 6 orks a turn. Good job!
* Your flyers get shot down by lootas/rokkits
* Your flyers cannot grab objectives. You lose 5/6 of the missions off the bat. Good luck grabbing objectives with 22 models, half of which are naked IG.

labmouse42 wrote:

valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

It seems to me that your reply more qualifies as a troll.

The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?

Have a nice day!

Someone said you can Grav Chute your troops without entering hover mode. I do not think its possible. Grav chute lets you deploy from valkyrie while moving flat out. But it does not let you deploy when making Zoom. If you zoom, you can not deploy, grav chute makes no exception.

Ok, my OP is not entirely accurate, because you can build a list that would destroy massed flyers, but are you really going to field multiple(at least 2-3) hydras in a tournament knowing that they can not hit ground targets?

How can a person running Tau for instance go to a tournament an expect to do well? They have no anti air, they can take a fortification, but what do you think will be targeted first? Then the railguns an then the missile crisis teams, now I know tau are not a good example, but take Eldar what anti air do they have an those bright lances are the first thing to go. now Tau an Eldar can take allies but what are you going to get maybe 1 flyer to help in the air?

In your local tournament scene how many of the people that you game with are not hard core gamers an still go to tournaments. Can they expect to do well maybe only fielding one flyer?

You all also seem to be harping on Vendettas which have severe limitations because the only way to take them in bulk is with squadrons, so take IG as your primary an Crons as your allied you can have 3 independent vendettas an the 3 independent Cron flyers one of which is a doomscythe.

Also I seriously don't understand this aversion to going into hover mode, I really dont. Are you going to go into hover mode within 14-15 inches of a hammer cc unit? Of course you aren't because you are not an idiot. You fly on 2nd turn an Grey Knights for 55 points can make that happen, zoom in on the most serious threat to your flyers(anything with multiple shots strength 8 or higher) an after going to hover mode you get a 2nd round of shooting from those same planes,then you get to offload purifiers or terminators or even basic troops, with tiny benchmen units you can make that happen.

As for board control 3 vendettas in a squadron are going to wreck a tank, but those 3 gunboat storm ravens (they cost a bit more but can pump out 19 TL shots all at least at str5) are going chew up hordes, an yes those lootaz will be the first to go. You are not always going to know who you are fighting, but if your local scene has hordes plan to go with the gunboat.

My point about the Storm Tallon was that yes it is a cheap $$$ wise flyer but against other flyers or even small arms fire from the ground thanks to the new hull point rule. You can buy 2 storm tallons for every one storm raven an unless you can catch the raven in an awkward position you will need both of those tallons to finish the raven. It is cost prohibitive for most gamers who have been playing the game for awhile to go an shell out an extra $150 to pick up a couple of flyers an then even more fortifications.

So my apologies, flyers have not broken the game because they can be beat, but until GW gets off their ass an gets more skyfire into the game, they are most definitely Very OP.


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Phanatik wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

valace2 wrote:At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies.I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

It seems to me that your reply more qualifies as a troll.

The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?

Have a nice day!

Most people don't want to debate it, they will call me a troll and say that they hate these threads, when in reality flyers have broken the game for many players.

The net lists from 5th were hard but the average player with good dice rolls could at least compete, now that player has to go shell out another couple hundred bucks to try an keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An for the record I love flyers, I just dont like feeling like TFG after crushing a player using my Storm Ravens while he has no flyers. The look on his face after trying to hit them makes me feel like a d*ck

As labmouse just demonstrated, it is entirely possible to deal with these flyer conundrums.

All these cries of "flyers are broken" is just adorable.

The real issue is that, with the new rules, some people have and some people haven't adjusted everything, so when you play someone who has adjusted (and is fielding a few flyers) against someone who hasn't adjusted (and has nothing effective anti-air) it will show a large margin of effectiveness between lists. Like I said in my largely ignored previous post, it is entirely not the fault of the Airborne player. Whoever is claiming flyers are broken, or anyone that fields them is TFG is just stuck in 5th and has some changes to make in their list.

It's just exhausting hearing how every new rule has "broken the game" because our lists and us players ourselves aren't yet fully used to them.

Flyers are powerful, granted, especially if your opponent is not prepared to deal with them or is otherwise ignorant of this fact. They haven't 'broken' anything and even if they have, the game's been released for what, a month? Can't you wait a bit longer before spilling delicious tears over the internet? Wait until a few larger tournaments have come and gone and at least one 6th edition codex has been released, then you'll get more of a reasoned discussion that just "no", "sky falling", "buy aegis" etc.

If you don't want to be TFG you know... don't use your flyers?
Or failing that, tell your opponent you want to use it/them and recommend they prepare accordingly... or allow them to buy Flakk missiles for a nominal points cost. There are ways round it so you don't come off as a jerk...

Could you specify which "many players" flyers have broken the game for?

Anyone regularly facing flyer spam they cant deal with?

So far i have only seen people theorizing about lists they dont like the sound of.

If you turn up to a random shop with well designed flyer spam you might bash your opponent in the same way you would have done with paladin or nob biker spam when those were the "broken" builds.

Testify wrote:6 vendettas at 2,000 points is 780 points. I'd like to know how people think deamons/nids/chaos can cope with that
Flyers are broken, but most people in friendly games won't use more than one or two. Don't play against dicks.

Vendettas are broken, just like they were in 5th because, Shocker, their point cost hasn't been raised. Flyers in general are fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:<sigh> Fliers have not broken the game

As it stands some fliers are undercosted (Vendetta, Night/Doom Scythes) and some are underpowered (Razorwings don't get Vector Dancer? Really????)

As always with GW it is not a fault of the core rules, it is a fault of the Codices. Hopefully as 6th edition Codices drop fliers will be rebalanced with changes to points cost, abilities and ground based AA that will make them fit into the game better (to be replaced of course by the next piece of cheese that the design team has overlooked in their 'playtesting process' to stinkily fester in the corner of the gaming halls ).

Razorwings are decidely meh. OK but taking 3 of them would hurt your army more than it helps.

Flyers are powerful...that can't really be ignored, but no army is "defensless" against them. Either they have flying MCs (nids) or can ally with armies that do have flyers. I honestly cannot think of one that cannot do so. Plus you have a fortification. I'll take tellion w/ an intercepting LC in terrain that has been fortified! Good luck taking it out now! Especially with the scouts in front of it. Even then massed firepower will bring them down. If you are running that many flyers you cannot be bringing that much else mech wise so my scourges w/ haywireblasters and wyches w/ haywire grenades will have easy target priority. Any infantry you drop off will meet their doom w/ venoms. Necron flyer spam is annoying but again objective wise you still have to get out which means I have a relatively good idea of where it will happen and can plan for it.

valace2 wrote:
How can a person running Tau for instance go to a tournament an expect to do well? They have no anti air, they can take a fortification, but what do you think will be targeted first? Then the railguns an then the missile crisis teams, now I know tau are not a good example, but take Eldar what anti air do they have an those bright lances are the first thing to go. now Tau an Eldar can take allies but what are you going to get maybe 1 flyer to help in the air?

Tau, Eldar, and DE(lesser extent) have all been gimped in more serious ways than just the addition of fliers. Until GW comes up with a serious FAQ or a new Codex for Xenos(Orks are fine though) they wont be competitive in a tournament. The new 6th edition rules were built around marine armies, making sure not to buff or gimp them too much. IG are fine in the shooting eviroment. Newcrons were created with 6th in mind. Orks are resilient as always.

Phanatik wrote:The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?

Yes I did. Perhaps its an difference of generation, but this does not seem like a reasonable request for a debate.

At my local store we have a decent number of players prolly close to 15 regulars but most can't afford to go shell out big $$$ to add multiple flyers to their lists I have 3 storm ravens an three vendettas an if I were to run all six I would shred most of their armies. I won't run all 6 because I don't wanna be tfg, but I could. Air power is just to damn strong.

The basis for the OPs argument is that they would shred most of their armies. Such a statement is one designed to generate an emotional response, ie trolling.

If the OP were trying to start a legitimate discussion, they could have said something like this.
- We have a moderate sized store
- Most people can't buy $150 of models to be competitive, and are falling behind
- I have found flyers to be OP, and will not spam them, for the following reasons.
...Not enough units can hit them
...They can target nearly anything with little or no fear of cover saves
...Spamming them can be very difficult for opponents to deal with
Do you find the same thing? Are flyers overly hard to counter right now? What counters are around, if any..

I hovered him because moving him 18 inches would have taken me no where, besides i won the gam by that point.

Flyer are not OP.

They arn't impossable to hit. They are still hit with shooting on 6s. Twin-linked high volume fire will still hit them reliably.

"I can't assault them, boo-hoo!" In 5th, how often could actually catch a Stormraven or Vendetta squadron in melee? They could flat out away from you at will pretty much. The Stormraven was also usually dropping off a scary melee unit, at which point the Stormraven was the least of your worries.


As always, play to the mission. Flyers are only scoring in 1/6 of missions(depending on the codex) and you can't score from inside a vehicle now. Flyer heavy lists will have insane difficulties winning objective missions.

Flyers are really best as a support unit. 1 or 2 that are used to take out key enemy units so the rest of the army can win. They won't win on their own.

Akroma06 wrote:Even then massed firepower will bring them down.

I've played a few games with my vendettas and against stormravens and I've learned the following

* A stormraven loaded up with a dread/assault unit is a fast way to lose ~750 points of models real fast.
* TL shots can take down flyers pretty well, they have ~30% of hitting per shot. Armies that can bring a lot of TL shots can do a lot of hard to flyers.
* While an quad-gun is not flyer-immunity, its does help. Its going to hit 8/9 of the shots when fired as BS 4, which will on average have at least 1 effect on AV 12. (glance or pen)
* Flyers can't shoot every turn. Most flyers come on the board on turn 2, get 2 shots off on turns 2-3, then zoom off the board on turn 4. On turn 5, they re-enter via ongoing reserves and get 2 more rounds of shooting. On turn 7, their going off the board again. A subsonic flyer will get ~4 turns of shots. A hover flyer can get more if they go into hover instead of zomming off the board to turn around, but then they are vulnerable to enemy fire/assault.
* Entering hover mode is often suicide for a flyer. I've seen it done on the end of turn 6 before and work (during big guns never tire)

TheCaptain wrote:As labmouse just demonstrated, it is entirely possible to deal with these flyer conundrums.

All these cries of "flyers are broken" is just adorable.

So, the temporary cure for codices that will have to wait years to catch up to the new meta is to field orks?

Perhaps my wife will have no problem with the new expense of purchasing 100+ models if I tell her they are "adorable."

Regards,

Grey Templar wrote:Flyers are really best as a support unit. 1 or 2 that are used to take out key enemy units so the rest of the army can win. They won't win on their own.

This....

An army with 1-3 flyers will have a nice force multiplier to their army. Investing to many of your points into flyers will actually hurt more than help -- especially in missions geared for the NOVA format where flyers cannot contest or take objectives.


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Phanatik wrote:So, the temporary cure for codices that will have to wait years to catch up to the new meta is to field orks?

Perhaps my wife will have no problem with the new expense of purchasing 100+ models if I tell her they are "adorable."

That all depends on what army you play
If you have the orks, run that.

What army do you play?

Phanatik wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:As labmouse just demonstrated, it is entirely possible to deal with these flyer conundrums.

All these cries of "flyers are broken" is just adorable.

So, the temporary cure for codices that will have to wait years to catch up to the new meta is to field orks?

Perhaps my wife will have no problem with the new expense of purchasing 100+ models if I tell her they are "adorable."

Regards,

Whats her normal army?

All codices can make a list that can take on flyers.

labmouse42 wrote:

Phanatik wrote:The OP created a thread in the Tactics section proposing that flyers are overly powerful, thus asking for debate. And you post a reply with a definition of trolling, without adding anything to the discussion? Are you certain you are in the right thread?

Yes I did. Perhaps its an difference of generation, but this does not seem like a reasonable request for a debate.

This is in all due respect, as I don't want to seem as if I'm attacking you, as I have nothing against you at all. I was just taken by the irony of it.

Who died and made you the arbiter of what's reasonable? Perhaps simply moving on would have been a contribution to the discussion.

Have a nice day!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Phanatik wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:As labmouse just demonstrated, it is entirely possible to deal with these flyer conundrums.

All these cries of "flyers are broken" is just adorable.

So, the temporary cure for codices that will have to wait years to catch up to the new meta is to field orks?

Perhaps my wife will have no problem with the new expense of purchasing 100+ models if I tell her they are "adorable."

Regards,

Whats her normal army?

All codices can make a list that can take on flyers.

My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.

best,

Phanatik wrote:My wife has never played 40k.
My only army is DE.
My comment was regarding the proposed temporary solution to massed flyers, i.e., massed orks.

Your flaw in logic is thinking that orks are the only solution to flyers. Just because something is white, does not mean everything else is black.

DE have some strong solutions to flyers. Are you looking for solutions to how to deal with them?

I feel like just saying shut up, or there's plenty of options that can beat them easily.

If I was super stressed to deal with fliers, why not take the following:

ADL w/ quad gun or lascannon
Allies
Big Mek w/ KFF
10 grots
15 Lootas

At 2000 points, I take a 2nd ADL and a barebones Big Mek with no KFF (35 points?) and 15 more lootas.

Worst case, the grots man the guns to at least make them BS3 provided I don't have something better (say a chaos sorceror with warptime). That is 2 interceptor shots on the round you come in and 30-90 Loota shots as well. It may not be game breaking, but it is a temporary stop gap to deal with flyers.

This is not including any flyers I am taking that would have skyfire as well. There are plenty of ways to deal with flyers. More ways will come out once flyer sales have plateaued with GW. Do you really think they are going to nerf their new flying models now while they are selling?