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Mannahnin wrote:Your codex has options which help against a newly-available type of unit. If, for theme purposes, you choose not to use those options, that's your choice.

Really, what things do deamons have that are twin-linked or have skyfire/interceptor?

Vector striking bloodthirsters is an urban myth. D3+1 S7 attacks against AV12 isn't worth your bloodthirster being dead next round, assuming you get to swoop anyway (i.e. you have enough space to get behind it, and you can pivot to face it).

Quad guns are a little better, though. They're still pretty unlikely to take down a flyer in a couple of turns. Works out at 0.5 glancing 0.5 penetrating hits per turn, assuming they all hit.
You must be able to see why people find this irritating. There is a threat that they only have one thing to use against, and they can only have one of it.

Having problems with tanks? Take some cheap MCs and smash them, or take some flamers to glance them to death, or some screamers.

Problem with horde? Flamers, nurgle spam, Soul Grinders.

Problem with MEQ? Deamonic Gaze, blootletters, flesh hounds.

Problem with flyers? ADL with Quad Gun. Thankyou and goodbye.

Testify wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.

They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?

An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.

Don't Demons have anything in their entire codex to deal with flyers?

Anything S7+ TL? Vector striking MCs? Psyker powers that ignore shooting rules? Iirc there was that Smash power or sth. that normally hit flyers, ignoring their "only on a 6" special rule...

Sigvatr wrote:

Testify wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.

They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?

An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.

Don't Demons have anything in their entire codex to deal with flyers?

Anything S7+ TL? Vector striking MCs? Psyker powers that ignore shooting rules?

Nothing Twin-Linked. Vector strike is at best S7, and no psker powers.

Grey Templar wrote:Meanwhile, the Postal Service is struggling with a codex full of over-priced postal stamps and premade boxes.

post office seems kind of orky to me. More dakka to go postal.


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Testify wrote:

Lothar wrote:
Wake up, people, THERE ARE PLENTY OF OPTIONS!

Find me a way that mono-Tzeentch can deal with av12 flyers without fortifications.

Chaos terminators with MoT, 10 man squad with 2 reaper autocannons and a ton of twin linked bolters. It costs 400 points but you DS in behind the flyer, hopefully in rapid fire range of a flyer and get 16twinlinked bolter shots and 4 twinlinked autocannon shots. Should get you a glance and a pen, which will kill said flyer. They might be able to jink out of it but flyers aren't great at killing TeQ with 2+/4++. If they have fateweavers reroll it would be even harder. Those 10 terminators can also string out and deny a lot of objectives late game while your rubric marines and horrors secure a few objectives.

Testify, aren't you looking at this a bit in the vacuum though?

No one is disputing that some armies got shafted in term of options to deal with flyers. But many have posted valid(or sounding valid) strategies to deal with flyers without using skyfire. For example, hordes could run into their zone and deny them the space to fly 18", and forcing the flyer to fly over them, with the exception of necron flyers, most would be shooting at scenaries after moving that far. Fast assault armies can also run into flyer's uncomfortable zone and attempt to deny/reduce attacks taken from flyers. Neither of those required any form of skyfire.

You seem to forget that when people take flyers, their points/slots that would otherwise go to bringing more/better ground units are gone. So an army with no flyers will outnumber/overpower the flyer army on ground. Then there is the fact that flyers come in on reserve(3+ is 67% chance, but you can still fail). Zooming flyers' lack of maneuverability plus front-facing guns for most flyers.

If anything, I'd say "my army's flyers are broken this game", broken as in nerfed. My jetfighter could begin the destruction on turn 1 last edition, and if I managed to last longer than 2 turns, I get a 3rd turn of shooting. Not to mention it serves as a diversion from my other units for all the turn that it's alive for. In 6th ed, any in-your-face army will be able to deny me of more than 2 turns of shooting easily.

Comes in on turn 2, shoot. Turn 3, back to reserve. Turn 4, shoot again if there is anything I could shoot at. Turn 5, back to reserve or something.

P.S. Why so determined to shoot them down? You can win by objective claiming for 5/6 games, or you can win by wiping the ground units while the flyers are in reserve!

I have yet to lose a game to an army with a flyer (other than necrons but they don't count) so I'm not really whinging about them being unbeatable.
It is entirely possible to win games when there is a vehicle zooming around with twin-linked assault cannons, hurricane bolters and some heavy bolters that's impossible for me to kill. But it's not very fun.

Sadly IG flyers aren't the worst out there.
Necrons and daemons.
Daemons 2 flying GD and 3 flying DPs.
Troops for objective hoping in second wave. The gds and dps assault everything they can.

Having used my Vendettas a fair bit I've found flyers to really not be overpowered as some people claim.
Thanks to their minimum move and limited turning you get 2 turns use (3 at best) before they're off the board or the enemies out of LOS.
At this point they can drop to Hover Mode to turn around, which makes them vulnerable, or fly off into ongoing reserve.
If they enter reserve you've then got the problem of the game ending (especially if they failed to turn up on turn 2) which will count them as being destroyed.

Testify wrote:I have yet to lose a game to an army with a flyer (other than necrons but they don't count) so I'm not really whinging about them being unbeatable.
It is entirely possible to win games when there is a vehicle zooming around with twin-linked assault cannons, hurricane bolters and some heavy bolters that's impossible for me to kill. But it's not very fun.

Well, ok then, but that is the "fault" of the opponent(if he/she is your friend, then I apologise if I've offended) though? And really, fun is hard to balanced, it's different for everyone... But, I wouldn't mind seeing more flyers or skyfire fortifications for other armies either.

Exergy wrote:
Chaos terminators with MoT, 10 man squad with 2 reaper autocannons and a ton of twin linked bolters. It costs 400 points but you DS in behind the flyer, hopefully in rapid fire range of a flyer and get 16twinlinked bolter shots and 4 twinlinked autocannon shots. Should get you a glance and a pen, which will kill said flyer. They might be able to jink out of it but flyers aren't great at killing TeQ with 2+/4++. If they have fateweavers reroll it would be even harder. Those 10 terminators can also string out and deny a lot of objectives late game while your rubric marines and horrors secure a few objectives.

Probably should have said, I meant deamons not Chaos Space Marines.

Great idea though, using a 400 point model to get 2 twin-linked autocannons at a 250 point AV12 vehicle. Let me know what other brainwaves you get.

Baronyu wrote:
Well, ok then, but that is the "fault" of the opponent(if he/she is your friend, then I apologise if I've offended) though? And really, fun is hard to balanced, it's different for everyone... But, I wouldn't mind seeing more flyers or skyfire fortifications for other armies either.

Well yeah i've never played against a friend who's bought more than one, so it's always been balanced. Back when i played mech guard, I wouldn't take Vendettas for similar reasons.

Testify wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Chaos terminators with MoT, 10 man squad with 2 reaper autocannons and a ton of twin linked bolters. It costs 400 points but you DS in behind the flyer, hopefully in rapid fire range of a flyer and get 16twinlinked bolter shots and 4 twinlinked autocannon shots. Should get you a glance and a pen, which will kill said flyer. They might be able to jink out of it but flyers aren't great at killing TeQ with 2+/4++. If they have fateweavers reroll it would be even harder. Those 10 terminators can also string out and deny a lot of objectives late game while your rubric marines and horrors secure a few objectives.

Probably should have said, I meant deamons not Chaos Space Marines.

Great idea though, using a 400 point model to get 2 twin-linked autocannons at a 250 point AV12 vehicle. Let me know what other brainwaves you get.

Against a storm raven you are going to want an Icarus Lascannon for 35 points. Str9 vs AV12, it will die eventually.
The Tzeench Teq would be good against light flyers that are likely to be spammed, and though they cost 400 points it's not like they are useless outside of shooting fliers.
As for mono tzeench daemon, that is a pretty limited list. You know what a Haemoculus coven has to take on fliers. Talos with TL heat lance! Woo, str6 melta. It can field 3 under 2000 points on slow MC with an 18" range. That will down a storm raven real quick.

Stormraven problem?
For mono tzeench what is wrong with taking 6 pink horror squads with bolts, 3 flying DP with bolts, and a herald or two with Bolt. Fateweaver who has bolt. 12bolts, 2 will hit, 3+ to do something to a storm raven. 4+ followed by 4+ to blow it to bits. Doesnt seem so bad.

puree wrote:

UltraTacSgt wrote:
40k can in no way be compared to a real sport because in real sports it is talent and athleticism that the individual brings to the game, and that talent and athleticism is what makes the difference. In 40k tactics are what makes the difference and tactics are what the individual brings to the table; problem is some tactics are pricey.

In many real sports at a very competitive gear makes a big difference. The winner in many sports can be determined by sub second differences and having the better low drag suit, or better shoes or bike, engine, tyres or whatever can be the difference between gold and silver. Sure you have to be up there and able to compete at that level to start with, but once there more money and more high tech gear can be pretty important.

This is irrelevant to the discussion at this point but I will respond anyway.

I said real sports, not competitive activities. For something to be a real sport it has to be based on what the individual is bringing to the game. Biking and vehicle based "sports" don't really count because the individual is just operating their way to success, sure it takes some skills or endurance but hey, it takes some skills and endurance to do your taxes some years and it takes skills and endurance to be a parent and deal with children, and nobody is claiming those to be a sport. To a degree even competitive activities like biking could almost be validated as sports because, after a certain level, everyone is riding roughly equivalent bikes and it comes down to the rider.

Bottom line, in a real sport the equipment is more or less equivalent for all competitors (basketball, baseball, football, grass-fairy ball...I mean soccer, golf, and even weak sports like swimming all make this cut). In a real sport, better equipment can help a bit, sure, but it won't be even close to enough to tip the scales in your favor if you are playing against equally skilled and equipped competition.

If something is based as much on equipment as it is on the individual competitor, then it is a competitive activity. It's just called a sport to validate it.

To tie this back to 40k: The game of 40k is two things, a hobby, and a strategy game. There is no implicit fairness. You make your list and you deal with the strengths and weaknesses. Any army, no matter how strong or broken it appears to be can be countered and defeated.

The "flyers are broken" argument is only valid in reference to people who go over the top and drop tons of cash to spam flyers against people who can't or won't spend the money to re-tool their whole army to counter flyers appropriately. People who do this are literally pathetic nobs so who cares, feel bad for them for being that willing to buy a victory and then just play other people who are more respectable players.

And remember to keep in mind that once the new codices come out, flyers will be just like any other unit, and will have strengths, weaknesses, and counters.

lordybarbo wrote:

1) They said that I could not move off the table with my flyers. I explained that I could zoom 18 to 36", making me a zooming flyer, and that if I moved flat out in the shooting phase, I, as a zooming flyer, could voluntarily move off the field and go to ongoing reserves. They allowed me to do it, but they (my necron opponent and the tourney staff) said it was illegal.

2) My opponent said that he could take his necron chariot (command barge) and sweeping attack my flyers. I told him you can not assault a flyer. He said I am not assaulting it; just using a sweep attack to hit it with close combat attacks. SO, the tourney official allowed him to hit my flyer with close combat attacks from the chariot. He said he flew over my flyer. I did not agree, and said I will compromise. You can hit me on a 6 like everyone else. He said I hit you on a 4+. I just started picking up my models.

3) I am not sure I agree with this, but one other necron player there (who agreed with my interpretations above) said that jink should improve. I asked him why, and he said that if a skimmer moves flat out, the save should be 4+. Does the jink save for a flyer improve with movement?

4) This next point of contention is more of a pet peeve of politeness. As you can imagine, the game store was really full and space was a premium. I, as a seasoned player, knew I would be moving table to table, and had set up my boxes so I could move the men on top of them, making them easy to access and move. As you can imagine, the two boxes were covered with infantry and vehicles. This butthole knew they were on the ground; he needed to look at my side of the table, moved like a freak, kicked my box, then stomped on two of my guys. He only said he was sorry; he did not offer to fix them or pay for them. SO not only did he not know the rules and was butt hurt he could not deal with my flyers, he also smashed two of my men for insult to injury. It was tied 4-4 in the 4th game turn, and if I could have kept zooming and been patient I could have got a draw or narrow victory.

WOW, after that, what do you guys think about that? I need some help, please!

1. You can move off the table during your zoom move. Since flatout is not part of your zoom move you cant move off the table with it.

2/ Yes he was right on this one and it hits on fixed numbers as it says in the rulebook. It also specifically says that they are not CC attacks but use the profile of the CC weapon

3. Yes it does as the jink rule just improves if you moved flatout

4. It is quite easy to miss models on the ground. I always put em on the chair. Stuff always happens as you said in the cramped space. I think his lack of curtesy was more to do with the fact that you guys were contesting rules the entire time more so than being intentional. But I was not there so no further comment.

Testify wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

Testify wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The same way that an all-Grot army deals with a Land Raider. They don't. You have options, you just choose to not use them.

They can deal with literally everything else - horde, AV14, transport spam, 'cron dickage. But not flyers. See my point?

An all-grot army isn't exactly feasible against non-Land Raiders, nor do Grots have HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Heavy and 2 special charectors devoted to them.

Don't Demons have anything in their entire codex to deal with flyers?

Anything S7+ TL? Vector striking MCs? Psyker powers that ignore shooting rules?

Nothing Twin-Linked. Vector strike is at best S7, and no psker powers.

If you take Fury of Khorne you gain rending while doing it for a potential AP2 (It doesn't list it as unable to do so, just that it hits unmodified strength and at AP3)

Testify wrote:Really, what things do deamons have that are twin-linked or have skyfire/interceptor?

Allies. I use IG allies with my daemon (as traitor guard) to shoot a quad gun and bring a vendetta.


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Testify wrote:Nothing Twin-Linked. Vector strike is at best S7, and no psker powers.

Unless your playing at the NOVA or any tourney that uses its FAQ. Unholy might counts for a bonus to Vector strike.

Well not sure if this has been posted b4 but in regard to te page one hydra vs fliers price thing in new Zealand dollars those 6 fliers are 775 dollars and the 9 hydras are 751.05 cents which makes the hydras cheaper which completely takes all the validity from the ops argument!


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Also fwahahahaha necrons are the shizzlenizzle with the release of the new books, but not as shizzlewizzle as the old monolithspam lists.

Leth wrote:
1. You can move off the table during your zoom move. Since flatout is not part of your zoom move you cant move off the table with it.

2/ Yes he was right on this one and it hits on fixed numbers as it says in the rulebook. It also specifically says that they are not CC attacks but use the profile of the CC weapon

3. Yes it does as the jink rule just improves if you moved flatout

4. It is quite easy to miss models on the ground. I always put em on the chair. Stuff always happens as you said in the cramped space. I think his lack of curtesy was more to do with the fact that you guys were contesting rules the entire time more so than being intentional. But I was not there so no further comment.

1) Ok, I am going to check with the rule boys and wait for a FAQ. I guess I will have to play it like that until then. It does not make sense that a flyer cannot voluntarily exit the field, but 40k does not make sense.

2) Hmm...again, I do not agree, but again, we will have to wait for a FAQ. I guess I can see both sides, but a chariot still has to move over a flyer right, not the base. SO, would he not have to measure up and over the flyer to 'move over' the unit, as described under chariots? To do that, if possible, he would have to be really close to the flyer right?

3) Ok, I was not reading it right.

4) Hmm...they were on a green and gold box about 1.5' high; the box was on the ground. My army is pretty big, so its tough to miss. Yes, he was a butt hole, but it was an accident. Not the whole time, but he did not like the fact that I would not dismount the infantry to get chopped up by his assault units.

lordybarbo wrote:
1) Ok, I am going to check with the rule boys and wait for a FAQ. I guess I will have to play it like that until then. It does not make sense that a flyer cannot voluntarily exit the field, but 40k does not make sense.

2) Hmm...again, I do not agree, but again, we will have to wait for a FAQ. I guess I can see both sides, but a chariot still has to move over a flyer right, not the base. SO, would he not have to measure up and over the flyer to 'move over' the unit, as described under chariots? To do that, if possible, he would have to be really close to the flyer right?

3) Ok, I was not reading it right.

4) Hmm...they were on a green and gold box about 1.5' high; the box was on the ground. My army is pretty big, so its tough to miss. Yes, he was a butt hole, but it was an accident. Not the whole time, but he did not like the fact that I would not dismount the infantry to get chopped up by his assault units.

1 - They CAN voluntarily move off the table entering "ongoing reserves" (pg 81 BRB).... just not with their Flat Out portion of movement (so you have 18-36 " to do it). also note - the turn you come in from reserves, you may not leave the table. (pg80 BRB)

***It's pretty awful that your TO hasn't read the rulebook enough to know what flyers can and can't do. How can one run a Tournament and have zero concept of the rules?

2 - Yep, that's how it works. You may not agree with it, but that is exactly how the the rules work, and if the visual concept is the issue think of it as the chariot is swooping under the flyer, slicing upwards.. gutting it. This may get nerfed in a few months when new FAQs drop (and I assume we get more skyfire options game-wide... but don't hold your breathe), but even now it is only useful within that 12" movement... so it's relatively easy to mitigate with the flyers. Just watch out for the people who know the art of "clipping" - It is a way of life for swoop attacks

3 - I do think that you only get the jink save if you evade - a small distinction, but very important (pg 81 BRB)

4 - I tend to think you guys were bickering so much during the game that your opponent decided to be a turd and "accidentally" step on your dudes. Poor Form.

I don't think your issues stem from game discrepancies as much as a poorly run tournament. Overall, while your showing was good in the tournament, I honestly wouldn't bother going back there (unless of course it is your only FLGS). Find a better place where the TOs know the rules. If you had a clear and firm TO, I bet there would have been less bickering, and there for maybe no ruined models.

After all, even if you don't agree with the TO (which you didn't for some rulings), at least it is fair ground and everyone is playing on a level field. I get the impression, you got to lobby your requests back and forth to a TO who hadn't read the book fully and really grasp the rules. Maybe it was too early for them to run this tourney.

Next time I would bring up these controversial rulings, or questions to the TO prior to ever deploying or even paying my entry fee. I want to ensure I know the rules before playing a game and not be hamstrung by some off the wall ruling by a TO who doesn't know how to play.

Just my 2 cents.

-----------------
P.S. Your army looks great!

Gangrel767 wrote:
1 - They CAN voluntarily move off the table entering "ongoing reserves" (pg 81 BRB).... just not with their Flat Out portion of movement (so you have 18-36 " to do it). also note - the turn you come in from reserves, you may not leave the table. (pg80 BRB)

***It's pretty awful that your TO hasn't read the rulebook enough to know what flyers can and can't do. How can one run a Tournament and have zero concept of the rules?

2 - Yep, that's how it works. You may not agree with it, but that is exactly how the the rules work, and if the visual concept is the issue think of it as the chariot is swooping under the flyer, slicing upwards.. gutting it. This may get nerfed in a few months when new FAQs drop (and I assume we get more skyfire options game-wide... but don't hold your breathe), but even now it is only useful within that 12" movement... so it's relatively easy to mitigate with the flyers. Just watch out for the people who know the art of "clipping" - It is a way of life for swoop attacks

3 - I do think that you only get the jink save if you evade - a small distinction, but very important (pg 81 BRB)

4 - I tend to think you guys were bickering so much during the game that your opponent decided to be a turd and "accidentally" step on your dudes. Poor Form.

I don't think your issues stem from game discrepancies as much as a poorly run tournament. Overall, while your showing was good in the tournament, I honestly wouldn't bother going back there (unless of course it is your only FLGS). Find a better place where the TOs know the rules. If you had a clear and firm TO, I bet there would have been less bickering, and there for maybe no ruined models.

After all, even if you don't agree with the TO (which you didn't for some rulings), at least it is fair ground and everyone is playing on a level field. I get the impression, you got to lobby your requests back and forth to a TO who hadn't read the book fully and really grasp the rules. Maybe it was too early for them to run this tourney.

Next time I would bring up these controversial rulings, or questions to the TO prior to ever deploying or even paying my entry fee. I want to ensure I know the rules before playing a game and not be hamstrung by some off the wall ruling by a TO who doesn't know how to play.

Just my 2 cents.

-----------------
P.S. Your army looks great!

Hey!

1) Ok, I'm still up in the air on this; I called GW today (I know the rules boys don't know everything and are no true authority. I did it for a point of reference.) and they said that the flat out move could be used to remove the flyer from the table. He explained that, the way they had been playing it at the GW offices, the difference was that the flyer was already zooming and making a zoom move, even if it goes flat out; a flyer that is in "hover" or functioning as a skimmer [whatever the exact language is] cannot move off of the table. I will look at the rule again when I get home. I see what you are saying, but it is just typical GW rules that need clarification. Yes, the TOs did not seem to know what they were doing. It was his first tourney, and our first with the new rules. HAHA! not just the TO, I should have known the rules better, right? It was my first time to play Necrons since 2003, and the Newcrons are not like Necrons. I did not get any 6th ed practice matches, except one, and that was with DE.

2) I will look at it again too. I asked the GW guy about that too, and he said, that at GW, they do not play it that way. He did say that it would have to "move over" [not under] the flyer [because the base is ignored] as described in the sweeping attack rules, so it would have to be pretty close to do it. He said that the rules there were murky and he did not want to give me a definitive answer. Yes, if I had one, I would try to clip too!

3) That's kind of what I was thinking after reading Jink, but everyone else, including a fellow necron player at the tournament, seems to think that Jink goes to 4+. I thought that when you nominated to evade, you only benefitted from the 5+ regardless of movement. We will need a FAQ on that too, imagine that...

4) I kinda agree with you, but it may have just been an honest accident. BUT he could have offered to pay for the damage or replace the men [which he did not]. AND his army was kept in a box lid, piled up with no respect, and his entire army was unpainted. He used a rubber band to hold his lord on the chariot for crying out loud. I do not have much respect for those sorts of players. Right or wrong, I am of the old GT circuit mentality that tournament armies need to be painted, themed, have good composition, and have three colors. That's part of the experience: seeing nicely painted armies on the field. Maybe he was jealous...

You have made a lot of good points that I will take to heart.

Thanks for the compliment. I wanted to post it so people could see exactly what I was talking about. It is certainly not small, easy to miss, or hard to spot! After looking at the pic, I am certain that it is easier for people to understand why I was so upset to begin with...

1 - A valid point... a zooming flyer would always count as zooming, and the hover ability does change the scenario. I think that's a fair call.

2 - Yes, it would still have to swoop over the model, I was merely describing it a little differently to help with the physics. lol

3 - According to the Jink rule... if the evading flyer has gone flat out, it would get a 4+ (pg38 BRB), but if it just zoomed... it would be a 5+

Hopefully, the next event there goes a little smoother for you!

With the new daemon drop, these chariot issues will need to be sorted out soon.

Gangrel767 wrote:1 - A valid point... a zooming flyer would always count as zooming, and the hover ability does change the scenario. I think that's a fair call.

2 - Yes, it would still have to swoop over the model, I was merely describing it a little differently to help with the physics. lol

3 - According to the Jink rule... if the evading flyer has gone flat out, it would get a 4+ (pg38 BRB), but if it just zoomed... it would be a 5+

Hopefully, the next event there goes a little smoother for you!

With the new daemon drop, these chariot issues will need to be sorted out soon.

Thanks again for your help; sometimes you just need a third party to look at things from a different perspective.

Yes, I hope that it will go smoothly as well.

The Newcron list is powerful, and the flyers do make a difference in mobility. BUT soon enough, there will be AAA available to everyone. However, even Anti-Air Artillery cannot limit the mobility; it can only try to wing one of them.

Yes, I did not even think about that. They will have to do something to sort it out before then!

lordybarbo wrote:Thanks again for your help; sometimes you just need a third party to look at things from a different perspective.

No Problem. This is the core of why I like Dakka Dakka over most other forums... while there is some flammage, mostly people are really just trying to get the rules down pat and help each other. We should be a community of wargamers, supporting and helping each other, keeping the hobby alive and helping it to be inviting for new players. At least, that's what I try to do when I post.

My thoughts on the Original Topic: "flyers have broken this game" - I just don't believe it to be true. They certainly have changed the game, but I think that the flyers are almost the counter-point to the other amazing ability we gained in 6th... making incredible deathstars. Now I know Nids don't get to take advantage of this as much, but I have seen some incredible deathstar lists come out of the allies rules, and even just how Close Combat weapons work now (meaning AP values) makes 2+ armour vicious.

BUT No matter how incredible your Deathstar now is... they can NOT assault that flyer... and conversely that Flyer will almost never be able to score. (with obvious exceptions)

The key here is list design. You need to be very strategic with your unit choices, knowing full well that your enemy may have flyers. I honestly think balanced and well thought out lists have a tremendous advantage in 6th edition, even with flyer spam and deathstar lists running around. With the great variance of units now available through new model drops or through allies, you either need to subscribe to one of the gimmicks (deathstars or flyers etc...) or make balanced lists.

I personally am not a fan of Fortifications or Allies... not because i think it's broken or dumb or anything like this, but just because my personal preference a majority of the time is having more dudes on the table, and usually the most economical way to do this is to stick with your Primary Detachment, and not get fancy.... BUT... there are some great flyer solutions in those options, and often ones flyers even have a hard time coping with.

Also, another thing to note is that fact that mysterious objectives can give you skyfire as well, and while not 100% dependable, it is something you need to remember and use tactics to get there if need be.

I have played a few games with my Night Scythes and my buddy with his DakkaJet, and one BIG thing we have noticed and something that isn't addressed as much on here as it is on dedicated Eldar forums, is that flyers LOS is limited, especially since they can only pivot before moving. It is not hard to get out of the LOS of a flyer, therfor limiting this vehicle to only shooting 2 or 3 turns in a game.

I know none of these solutions on their own seem to solve the flyer problem, but when you have 100 little solutions that also means that your opponent doesn't have a hard counter for you either. In other words, if you only had two hydras, those will be the flyers first targets, but if you had those two hydras... with fortifications... and a skyfire objective... and some massed STR 4+ gunfire, you have a plethora of options and no one thing your opponent can destroy. (a key to a powerful list IMHO)

There is a batrep on the Frontlinegaming channel on youtube, where they run a Draigo Paladin list vs a Necron flyer list (7 or 8 flyers)... the Paladins win without killing a model, because flyers can't score, claim objectives, etc... and the piddly units inside were not stalwart enough to stand up to an army of paladins. This is one example of the extremes, and how a balanced list could probably have had a great chance vs either list. I'm not affiliated with them, but you should check it out if you haven't had a chance to see a flying circus (all flyer) list.

Well said Gangrel, nice to see some proper game experience and logic applied to the situation. Flyers are certainly powerful, but their limitations mean every army has a potential counter.

Gangrel, I concur with Godless-Mimicry.

I completely agree with you about the community, and maybe one day, we will be able to play a match.

I, like you, believe that flyers have changed this game, and that every army will have to get away from napoleonic warfare and be prepared to face vertical envelopment/air attack, what ever shape/form that may take.

Yes, the most important choices for the modern 40k commander will be the strategic ones/list design.

I am not a big fan of the allies or fortification rules, but I think its ok that people now have that option. Forts are monuments to people's stupidity anyway, right?

As a newcron player, yes, AAA is my primary target.

Thanks again!

If I get any more feedback, I will post it here.

6th edition flyers are like 5th edition GK pallies, shoot them, lots. Granted, easier said than done with some armies, but options are available for each. Gunning down a transport full of troops has its own rewards too.

Flyers have "broken" the game the same way IA units integration pre 6th ed, leafblower armies, and GK has broken the game.

The thing about games, is really, nothing can break anything, because if flyers are simply as "broken" as you claim to be, then everyone will just take flyers.

If everyone brought "broken" units, is the game broken? hell no.


TL;DR: Stop QQing.

Ok, you will not believe this...

1) I was in the game store today, and they (people in the store) told me that half of my necron infantry had to be deployed and that it could not be held in reserve. I looked to the reserve rules, on page 124, and it says "a unit and its dedicated transport" form "a single unit" for reserve purposes. They said I still had to deploy half of the infantry, even though, my night scythes, upon [or through] which they were deployed, had to go into reserves. Do I have to deal with this or can my infantry go to reserve with their transport? I ignore that, right, as my dedicated transports and infantry are one unit, and are forced to reserves?

2) The next bit of insanity is this: They {the people, unwashed masses, or fat ogres or some damn thing, at the game store} said that my Newcron infantry could not mount the night scythes. They said that the entry for night scythes, in the Newcron book, pages 51 and 91, says that it "has a transport capacity of 15. It can carry jump infantry...and jetbikes [with no provision yet on how]." It does not specifically state the straight leg infantry can ride. Even though it clearly says newcron warriors "may take either...night scythe as a dedicated transport." How can they argue that the night scythe cannot transport the warriors?

Is it just me or are these people just reaching? We had to endure the "Death star" now they must endure the "Scythe flying circus!"

Sounds like they are REALLY reaching, as well as making up some extra bits on their own. I dont own the current dex, but if it says in their codex entry they can take said transport as a dedicated transport then yea, they can take it as such, no if ands or buts. And as far as I know, if you buy a dedicated transport for a squad, they are in that transport. Ive never seen nor heard a rule where you have to have all your infantry outside of the transports like you said.

All that says is that it can carry those things. It is not exclusive of other types joining. And since infantry have permission to enter transports in the main rules its perfectly fine.

KingCracker, you are right, BUT, in classic GW style, we are left to speculate, as it does not specifically say the infantry can ride their own transport.

Again, RAW vs RAI...

Yes, they were making up crap and looking dumb, but they do, sadly, have a point.

1) As per the rules they form one unit, but what if one half has to go to reserves? I say round up or ignore it, as they are on dedicated transports, and, hell, I paid the points for them. They should be able to ride.

2) It does not specifically say the newcron warriors "can" ride. It says jump packers "can" and jetbikes "can" but it does not say infantry "can."

Do you think I am blowing this out of proportion, or do I have a legitimate gripe?

I guess you figured me out, but I think they are full of it.


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Grey Templar,

I agree with you, but their argument is that the rules do not specifically say infantry, or the dedicated squad, can ride their own transport.

How do you argue with logic, or fat ogres, like that?