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See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

A sunken cost fallacy isn't exactly a decent method of debating this as a false choice. Yes you can indeed walk away if you see a SC, take the loss and move on.

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

It's an expression, "Hot Blonde I'll take two", generally it is used to denote something awesome.

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

One day, I will make an army of marbos, and it will be glorious. Everything will die, and it'll be the first game where an IG player not only tabled the opponent, but himself as well!

A glorious day indeed, sir!



DoW

MrMoustaffa wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

One day, I will make an army of marbos, and it will be glorious. Everything will die, and it'll be the first game where an IG player not only tabled the opponent, but himself as well!

Codex Marbo. Emperor's will be done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DogOfWar wrote:

Buttons wrote:What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

I like this idea.

He's really not that bad, just not overly necessary. He makes a melta squad much more likely to take out that pesky Land Raider, can help a plasma squad not kill themselves (provided they're shooting at something big), and it's always nice to have a power sword knocking around, even if it's only WS4 S3.

The problem is, anything he provides can be provided just as well (if not better) by having another vet squad. Since they're cheap and plentiful anyway, it makes him very 'meh'. If he could give a boost to Stormtroopers, as Buttons mentioned, that could potentially be somewhat more of a niche he could fill.

But now we're getting into proposed rules and I don't want to derail the thread too much.

DoW

Not trying to derail the thread, but I get the vibe that he was originally meant to be a storm trooper special character, I mean he has carapace armour, a hot-shot laspistol (the only other guy who carries them is Creed (who I think always had them) and Storm Trooper Sergeants) and the whole fluff behind him sounds much more like a Kasrkin sergeant than just a regular veteran (beyond his missions sounding more like spec ops than conventional guardsmen, the fluff behind the way the population views him (His voice is broadcast through officer training schools in Cadia and he is a worldwide heroe) sounds like that of someone already held in high esteem, and really everyone in Cadia loves the Kasrkin).

Trench-Raider wrote:

ere's the kicker, you can agree not to play him without that rule in the book, you have your consent regardless whether the book tells you to or not. The same applies whether you feel you don't want to play gray knights, longfangs, psykers, deathwing, forgeworld, etc. Nobody is going to force you to the chair and force you to game against someone against your consent.

This just makes it so that it isn't mandatory. Just say, I don't want to play against an SC, and walk away.

See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

Choose not to play at that tournament. There's nothing stopping a TO from banning SCs from tournaments, so the only conceivable reason to move back to them being banned by default is that you don't like them.

On the tabletop? Probably my most hated would be Lukas the Trickster, if only because his player outmaneuvered me, and ended up taking out a Chaos Terminator champion deathstar with my chaos lord thanks to that stasis bomb.

Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

Haters gonna' hate... I love Draigo because I'm a troll and when someone gets all poopy pants about it I can't help but laugh at them. But on topic I just hate overcosted SC's, Arjac and basically any other SC that GW stole abilites from other universes to create.

So, all of them then

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

The two things that make him stand out.

Heavy flamer (lol), and Hamadrayla, which lets a Chaos Lord have warptime (I came from before 4th, when Lords could actually take sorcery powers, I swear this is just an insult to that removal)

Kharne
Abbadon

I know one of my regular opponents hates Imotekh because he gets hit by so many lightning bolts that it's not even funny(well for him at least).

Well to answer the OP:

I don't like all the special characters. I hate seeing them on the tabletop every battle. Special should be special not commonplace.

In defence of some individual special characters:

Draigo... Only the fluff and a allowing paladins to become troops. Otherwise I think his rules are fine (as far as 40k these days) and his model is awesome.

Kharn... His model needs a revamp. Actually I think FW should make a run at all the special characters... Like an "Epic" from Warmahoardes.

Calgar... Sweet model... And I'm an Ultramarine fanboy.

Ghaz... I love Orks. Themodel is great but is basically any Boss in Mega-Armour. They should really just make him huge... like flyer base huge.

Trench-Raider wrote:

ere's the kicker, you can agree not to play him without that rule in the book, you have your consent regardless whether the book tells you to or not. The same applies whether you feel you don't want to play gray knights, longfangs, psykers, deathwing, forgeworld, etc. Nobody is going to force you to the chair and force you to game against someone against your consent.

This just makes it so that it isn't mandatory. Just say, I don't want to play against an SC, and walk away.

See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

It's a moot point of course GW will not re-introduce "opponet consent" as it would cost them sales of over-priced character models. It's yet one more example of how the game has changed for the worse.

TR

Yah! Gw is evil! Trying to sell me EXPENSIVE special characters! I mean, for the price of Dragio, I could just get a Terminator Librarian. SO EXPENSIVE! Better get that Space Marine Commander box for 22.25 instead of that OVERPRICED Tycho for $20. Or maybe I should play space wolves, and Get Ragnar Blackmane for 19.25. Better get ready to empty the bank account for that Belial model, you know, the one that doesn't exist. Or, in case you don't play marines, I have to make the AGONIZING choice between a Lord of Change for 57.75 or Fate Weaver for... 57.75.

So, now that we have established that most characters are the same cost as their generic counterparts (Except for Draigo, but the brother captain model is OLD [ and 22.25] and Grandmasters don't have a model), would you please find me a list of all the overpowered special characters?

And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and to cover which characters I hate: Imotek. Because the lightning wrecks my tanks like nothing else.

Happygrunt wrote:And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.

I don't know what to make of this.

But 2007? You missed out, man.

Once upon a time $100 could get you 2 10 man tac squads and the rhinos for them to ride in.

DeffDred wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.

I don't know what to make of this.

A couple pages back, Trench-Raider went to a guy's account to get information to tell him how unqualified he was to talk about special characters. I was just saving him the trouble. And I felt it closed my mini-rant nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeffDred wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.

I don't know what to make of this.

But 2007? You missed out, man.

Once upon a time $100 could get you 2 10 man tac squads and the rhinos for them to ride in.

It is a rough estimation. I stared at the end of 4th while I was in 7th grade. 2007 seemed like a good ball park guess.

@ Happygrunt

Thanks for the explanation. Saved me the trouble of reading all 7 pages of whining to find out what you meant .

I hate special characters with stupid rules like statis field, you can run in with the most powerful unit in the game and its gone in a turn.

But more specifically I hate:

Dragio
Lucas the trickster
The Swarm Lord
The Doom Of Malantia
Dante
Castellian Crowe
Stracken and all other 6th ed characters that Ignore All Armour Saves

As a blood angel player.

Mephiston... he was always a scary character, still it... but when I see him it just smells of cheese... though Divination or Biomancy Mephy can be very... very.... scary

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

The two things that make him stand out.

Heavy flamer (lol), and Hamadrayla, which lets a Chaos Lord have warptime (I came from before 4th, when Lords could actually take sorcery powers, I swear this is just an insult to that removal)

Yeah, having played 3rd almost exclusively, when I saw Huron, I was like, "wait, what's special about a chaos sorc. lord w/ a heavy flamer?"

He gets a secondary slap to the face in 6th, though, as now his melee "options" are a S8/AP2/slow weapon, or a S5/AP2/slow weapon

spiralingcadaver wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

The two things that make him stand out.

Heavy flamer (lol), and Hamadrayla, which lets a Chaos Lord have warptime (I came from before 4th, when Lords could actually take sorcery powers, I swear this is just an insult to that removal)

Yeah, having played 3rd almost exclusively, when I saw Huron, I was like, "wait, what's special about a chaos sorc. lord w/ a heavy flamer?"

He gets a secondary slap to the face in 6th, though, as now his melee "options" are a S8/AP2/slow weapon, or a S5/AP2/slow weapon

You could always just model him with a power sword though. Hopefully he gets something interesting in the chaos dex for 6th.

Abaddon. There's no rules for how much of a failure he is.

One I don't necessarily hate, but dislike Sicarius for being the only vanilla SM with rites of battle anymore (who else besides BT still has this, I'm curious). Of course, as a BT player, I'm spoiled for generic HQ and starved for SC, so I hope we get some with our next 'dex that way I hopefully can buy awesome new models. Might have said this earlier, but the reason I run my special characters is that I want to field that model that day (for example, my Grimaldus). For the cost of giving grimaldus his wargear, I think it's around 5 points more for the basic chaplain (and I would have to spend another 105 points to get a standard bearer who could equip the holy relic) so why the heck not get some special rules and use the model I like while helping my army.

BTNeophyte wrote:One I don't necessarily hate, but dislike Sicarius for being the only vanilla SM with rites of battle anymore (who else besides BT still has this, I'm curious).

Dark Angels.

I hate all IC's that are both 1) over-powered in a very simplistic or unjustifiable way (beast stats + cheap field cost together) and/or 2) easily exploitable because
of any variable, inherent stats.

There are some IC's that are utter deathstars; and I hate the people that use said IC's for that mere fact alone: because they are aware of it, they know
their IC is inexpensive and/or beastly and use it for no other reason but to buff their army beyond any moderate standards. The IC is annoying and the
WAAC TFG is even more annoying for being aware of it.

Other than that, the majority of IC's just seem completely unbalanced and annoying therein. Either their stats are too 'big' or their field-point
price is much too low for what they are. Everything would be fine if every single IC could be overhauled and rebalanced to make just a bit more sense.
That's all this is about: sensibility, because as it is, most of them don't seem sensibly balanced.


Otherwise..

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━━━━━┻

Yarrick - Seriously I f*cking killed you and now you are suddenly getting up again the turn after I utterly destroyed you, sit down MF!

Doom of Malantai - Just because of his ability to raise his stats to ridiculous levels (yeah alright he's a bit soft, but seriously that STAT line).

Any Character in the Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves codex...Yeah that just covers it.

Alot of people aren't thinking about the choices of Characters in a wider sense with regards to their special rules. Yes, some are close Combat Monsters, but others are annoying because they grant crazy army wide bonuses. Pedro Kantor's Scoring sternguard is a MF, as is Lysanders Bolter Drill (Seriously this guy doesn't even have a gun, ) Sicarious super tactical squads, fancy hiding a super-heavy? Hello CREED.

Abaddon, Mephiston and Draigo are all OP. I think we all agree on this.
On the OP factor I dislike them.
Disliking them, I don't run them.
That being said, run them if you want. I have yet to turn down any game based on the composition of the opponent's army list.
Why?
Because it's a game. SCs are a challenge. Challenge Accepted. If I knew I was going to win every fight before deployment this game would get old very quickly.
Alot of arguments about WAAC seem to stem mostly from the fact that people feel destined to lose. Just run better armies. I get it. Your army is fluffy. If that army lost as many battles in it's fluff as it does on the table they might decide to run a few more heavy weapons (or whatever). Sometimes it's not that your opponent is TFG of WAAC (good god, or both) but that your composition sucks.
If a player is WAAC, fine. You just have to toss out your preconceived notion of victory. If you want to beat a player like that just destroy their cheese unit(s) and they will fold. They always do. Removing the fun factor for a player like that can be a rewarding experience all it's own.

But that argument means, that 40k should lack diversity as all you need is one of 3 lists that are good, as the rest are pants. Ergo, why bother with them? This destroys the diversity of the game and essentially takes alot of the fun out of 40k (also known as META-list gaming) and you see it most often at tournaments. I prefer fluffy lists, rather than Competitive lists unfortunately their seems to be no appreciation of the casual/ fun gamer and OP characters just exacerbate the problem as the competivitive gamers jump on them and never leave home without them. It leaves you in the position that you have to take something to take on their OP character.

6th Ed Allies is already spawning F*cked up GK & BA lists in my local club, resulting in Razorback spamming assault squads with Baal Preds backed up with GK Paladins etc.