That special character that you just hate...

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**Wardragoon**

liquidjoshi wrote:

I'll put down Belial as being a top-notch guy though. He's good and cheap

And as power klaws have pointed out to me on several occasions, missing eternal warrior.

**timetowaste85**

Hate Draigo for fluff, Tau characters for being Tau, and I can't think of anyone else really. Most SM characters are fine by me. I used Mephy once to watch him cut apart by Fire Dragons. He isn't busted, there are tons of things that can kill him (melta squads, plasma squads, torrents of dark-lances, poisoned, instant death, and more).

**Vaktathi**

Anything can be killed, the question is can it be killed by a reasonable amount of effort relative to the cost?

**Noisy_Marine**

Reading Mephistons stats made me want to play Blood Angels. I hate him for that.

**timetowaste85**

Vaktathi wrote: Anything can be killed, the question is can it be killed by a reasonable amount of effort relative to the cost?

250 points can be taken out in a single round of shooting by an 80 point unit. So...yes, he can be reasonably killed. 5 Sternguard (at 150) with their combi-plasma can kill him-put them in a drop pod and he can't hide, bringing their cost to 185. That's still 65 points less for a squad that is still a threat after they kill a big nasty. 3 armies that have cheap options against him. Mephiston vs. Skulltaker-one killing blow is all it takes. Abbaddon, if rumors are true of his AP2 weapon, costing the same as Mephiston, should kill him in a single round of combat. 4 armies that can easily deal with Mephy. Others take a bit more effort, but I'm pretty sure a Leman Russ Punisher (that's the 20 shot gun, right?) will wipe him out right fast too, for less points. I can keep this up...until I run out of armies.

**TheCaptain**

Hah. Anyone complaining that they don't belong are likely just getting wrecked by SC's. I don't field them because I can't fit any of the rules in my fluff, but I have no problem with them. Yes, Eldrad slaps me around with doom and fortune. You betcha Draigowing is a helluva deathstar.

The list goes on.

But they're in the game, everyone can use them, and they can't outsmart Dakka. You just need to bring enough of it.

**Jayden63**

I hate every IC in all Ward produced products. The man just does not know when to say enough is enough.

Even if they are crazy expensive, its obviously worth it for how often they always pop up in every army.

**shad0wen**

Aun'shi because he isn't in the 2nd tau codex T^T

**Corinthius**

Imotech, because they called him Imotech...

**Trench-Raider**

First up....

i don't like you or people like you.

Hush, child. The adults are having a discussion here.

Now that bit of business is out of the way, back to the ongoing discussion...

So you know no one who uses a special character's rules to show their own made up guy? With a made up model and homebrewed fluff? Because I've seen plenty of them, and Walrus probably has too. How about going with what he says rather than pointing a finger and shouting 'WAAC'

Yes, yes.
I have seen a handful of examples of people shoehorning their own fluff into existing special characters. But they seem to be in the minority. Most people just plop out the GW aproved character and run with that.
You two are missing my point. I expressed my initial reaction to the introduction of special characters. The bottom line is that I feel they were bad for the game then and they are bad for the game now. GW should really go back to the previous policy of only permitting their use with opponent inclusion. That would pretty much kill their use in tournaments, and limit their unbalancing effect in friendly games as well.

TR

**blood guard26**

CURSE YOU IMOTECH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU AND YOUR THUNDER-BUDDIES.

**mcpothead**

Draigo

**Fido198674**

Ghaz, no matter what, I can NEVER kill him, even when I had 10 asslt termies on him, I rolled just horrid and he did manage to kil them....I wanted to cry

**Vaktathi**

timetowaste85 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: Anything can be killed, the question is can it be killed by a reasonable amount of effort relative to the cost?

250 points can be taken out in a single round of shooting by an 80 point unit.

Can, but won't likely with anything near average rolls, not to mention cover, and not everyone has 80pt units with 5 meltaguns. This also requires getting that unit very close to him

So...yes, he can be reasonably killed.

Consistently?

5 Sternguard (at 150) with their combi-plasma can kill him-put them in a drop pod and he can't hide, bringing their cost to 185. That's still 65 points less for a squad that is still a threat after they kill a big nasty.

On average? He'll likely still be alive more often than not after that, and that's assuming no cover and that that drop pod lands where it needs to.

Mephiston vs. Skulltaker-one killing blow is all it takes.

Assuming mephy doesn't kill him first (he gets to go first and use his psychic powers to buff himself and all that), and given how often (or rather...not) Skulltaker is taken, it's not a likely matchup

Abbaddon, if rumors are true of his AP2 weapon, costing the same as Mephiston, should kill him in a single round of combat.

Abaddon costs more than Mephiston does, and lacks his more useful abilities.

Others take a bit more effort, but I'm pretty sure a Leman Russ Punisher (that's the 20 shot gun, right?) will wipe him out right fast too, for less points.

A 210pt Punisher with 3 HB's and a Heavy Stubber, putting out 32 shots, will on average put...0.85 wounds on Mephiston. T6 with a 2+sv is hard to get through, and there's a reason nobody takes the Punisher

**salvadorjer**

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

All of them but not for these reasons. I don't have a problem with my opponent using them or if it's overpowered or not. I just want the anonymous guys because then they are mine, it's my little corner of the galaxy and i can forge a narrative involving captain X and librarian Y vs Chaos lord Z. This way they grow and evolve with the games and feel more organic so i never field any special characters.

Side note cassius is broken though i mean +2t FNP and bolter that wounds on 2+ for 25 pts? really?

**gaovinni**

I don't like Vulcan. Everybody wants to use him and everybody keeps telling me to use him. There is only one special character I have ever used in 40k (and still do) and that is Pedro Kantor although I have been considering Straken and Harker for my catachan to make them even more catachanish.

**XT-1984**

I hate Fateweaver because my Daemons are dependant on him to make games with Daemons close. Instead of just getting wiped out every time.

**Cerebrium**

Trench-Raider wrote:
So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

Some armies are objectively impossible to build without a special character. Take Doublewing for example. It's how Ravenwing/Deathwing behave in fluff, yet if you do it, apparently you're a WAAC player.

**BlaxicanX**

Imotech.

What he passively does to shooty armies is just disgusting. Passively!

**Trench-Raider**

Some armies are objectively impossible to build without a special character. Take Doublewing for example. It's how Ravenwing/Deathwing behave in fluff, yet if you do it, apparently you're a WAAC player.

Read my original post in this thread. I lament the fact that GW has decided to tie certain army changing universal rules to the use of a specific special character instead of offering the option another way.

It's something that is motivated purely by their wanting to sell more character models.

TR

**English Assassin**

To be honest, I hate them all.

But I hate Draigo especially.

**timthehierodule**

I don't mind characters with ine or two little booster rules and a piece of fancy equipment but with some characters (especially in the new codex's) are just over powered cheap units which everyone takes. Grrrrr

**wowsmash**

I like them myself but then again I would like to buy all of them from a painting stand point. They look like a blast to paint. Plus it doesn't make since to me to say look at our awesomely sculpted special character models but sorry you can't use them 90% of the time for fear of somebody getting their feelings ruffled.

On topic mephiston is the only sc that stands out to me as poorly thought. He's great but I see a lot of blood angel army bat reps. He can die but generally I only see him die rarely. Most BA players make sure you. Can't draw line of site to him until he's in your face. Not saying that it doesn't happen but I find myself always rooting for the other said because he makes it seem so one sided.

**liquidjoshi**

Mephy folds like a wet towel to terminators now. It's pretty funny actually.

**dpal666**

Any SoB character, just the fact that there really aren't any other options for HQ in their army.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Trench-Raider wrote:
So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

I play Black Templars and still play with Special Characters (you know, the ones that are worse than our generic counterparts) so you can take your silly accusation somewhere else. I firmly believe that there are no OP characters. Everyone has a weakness that can be exploited.

But hey, what do I know? I'm obviously a WAAC no-fluffer who's destroying this game...

**BunkerBob**

From a writers standpoint, I see plenty of reasons why a chapter, ork, kabal, cadre, regiment, ect would have a major character there.

Vulkan is a nice point, I was reading his wiki today at work because I love the Salamanders (and Templars, and Ultra, and Fists, and Flesh Tearers, and Soul Drinkers, and it goes on) based soley on their fluff, in his case he can take command and lead all of the Salamanders in the name of acquiring another relic. Helbretch is the same, he can lead any Chapter crusade at his will (yay for bonuses to hunting psykers!) . Ghaz is well, he is what he is.

I don't hate any of the Special characters as most people don't bother to add fluff to the battle and I routinely narrate the campaign outloud. I've been met with boos, just be quiet, and laughs (tends to depend on who has the stick stuck where). I just let it go, and build ALL of my own fluff.

Rambling aside, I fought with a GK group with my Guard in a 1k tourney vs Tau and Chaos and my allie drops draigo on all of the enemy troops and draigo jumps aboard the rape train and doesn't stop till the game ends (he was chasing a tau hammerhead across the map)

A special place for draigo indeed. Though he is alone there.

**juraigamer**

Mephiston. He is the only character in the game that automatically cause all respect for the player to be lost.

**Testify**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I play Black Templars and still play with Special Characters (you know, the ones that are worse than our generic counterparts) so you can take your silly accusation somewhere else. I firmly believe that there are no OP characters. Everyone has a weakness that can be exploited.

As a deamons player I'd say that's not really true. A swooping Fateweaver is 6s to hit, T5 and a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save.

Mephy is love or hate - any army that can take boot-loads of AP2 firepower can laugh him off, anyone that doesn't will have problems.

**blood lance**

timthehierodule wrote: f***y Draigo

Usage of an insulting word such as that isn't necessary at all Tim.
Moving on, Definitely Marneus Calgar. A majorly overblown character. Punched an avatar to death? Held a Wall all by himself for a day? He did What? one of the few recorded proper defeaters of the tyranids? Pffff. O-v-e-r-b-l-o-w-n.
As well as that he has a poop model. And he sucks (Notbitter)