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phoenixrisin wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

i don't like you or people like you.

aha, that made me laugh so much XD

I have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.



anyway, on topic, I have to say I dont like fighting fate weaver. he's hard to kill and a pain in the ass :/ oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Trench-Raider wrote:I lament the fact that GW has decided to tie certain army changing universal rules to the use of a specific special character instead of offering the option another way.

It's something that is motivated purely by their wanting to sell more character models.

I really, really hate tying the certain army-wide rules or composition options to the special characters. I love building and equipping my own characters, but if you want to run certain types of armies, you are forced to use the special characters. Of course you can make make your of counts-as characters, but you're still stuck with GW chosen wargear.

I'd wish that regular characters would just have options to buy certain special rules and then there would be no need for special characters.

Farsight.

Just hate him.

I don't particularly enjoy using any of them, I prefer my own fluff. My IG can get along without the named HQs though Creed does do a good job when I want to play a foot list. Black Templars it is a total waste and with the current codex, I can make a much better character with a 2+/3++ and Eternal Warrior (pray to god we keep the ability to give this to our Marshals in our revamped codex).

My most hated character though is Eldrad. Eldar are my favorite race to play, and my favorite race from the lore perspective. The fact that I have to play a dead guy for my "uber awesome" character just bugs the crap out of me. It's like a Vietnam video game, they are never good because you know you are going to lose no matter what you do. However, not using him is ridiculous as I'm only 20 point shy of his cost and he brings together the Eldar codex so nicely. Long Story short I sat down and made up special lore for a character that would function a lot like him. I bet you can't guess what I called him!!

have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.

Do you have any clue how silly and juvenile this post sounds, especially the "just deal with it" part? Any clue at all?
But then I note your 4channer kiddie meme avatar an your being a kid according to your profile age, so I doubt it.

Run along now....

TR

So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

daedalus-templarius wrote:So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

Apparently, now if you are fielding special characters to WAAC thats a different story, but going "Hey look I like this character, and I want to field him" then I would just tell you go screw yourself. I am willing to bet there are plenty of counts as models that have names like: Uriel Ventris, Honsou, Ibram Gaunt, Colonel Schaeffer etc.

Abaddon. His S8 I6 claw and his sword which only gives him more attacks.

I play IG, and actually field Creed very often. With that said, I hate facing him.

Wardragoon wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

Apparently, now if you are fielding special characters to WAAC thats a different story, but going "Hey look I like this character, and I want to field him" then I would just tell you go screw yourself. I am willing to bet there are plenty of counts as models that have names like: Uriel Ventris, Honsou, Ibram Gaunt, Colonel Schaeffer etc.

So, "I like this character and want to use them in my army" is something you respond to with "screw yourself".

Wow, guess I uh, wouldn't be playing with you ever?

I don't have a lot that I hate, most are annoying. The vindicare assassin is my most hated character in the 40k universe.

Vaktathi wrote:Vulkan He'stan. Went a full year before I saw a C:SM list that didn't include this guy. Such a no-brainer auto-include for 5E SM armies, he made all the stuff you'd take masses of anything better, and was more capable than an equivalent captain, for a negligible points increase.

Fateweaver- A gimmick centerpiece whom I've never seen used in anything but heavily khornate armies.

The Stormlord- Another gimmick HQ that gives huge strategic advantages and a very powerful ability to inflict great harm on an opponents army (especially stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Heavy Weapon squads, and light/medium vehicles), simply by being included in an army list. He's intensely hard to kill and all his abilities work without him even needing to be alive or indeed for the owning player to do anything. He simply is taken and gives a massive boost to an army without actually needing to do anything with him. The perfect definition of a "Crutch".


Draigo- his fluff is atrocious, I won't go into it as it's already well known. He's also a more capable combatant than most Greater Daemons and purpose-dedicated Monstrous Creatures. way overblown

Mephiston- A guy that's the size of a basic marine and easily hidden, but with stats on par or greater than Greater Daemons and an array of powerful psychic powers. It's hard to find a better example of an author "breathing too much of the fumes" and putting too much of the overblown fluff into the actual rules.

second all of these

and add in these:

Eldrad - Costs so little for being so good. Can't remember the last time I saw an eldar army without him. Even I would take him.

Marbo - Stupidly good and he competes with nothing for elite slots.

Crowe - Note how GK have special characters that make their best three units troops. DE have special characters that make two of their worse units troops.

Marius Calgar - I have all ultramarines, and the leader of the ultramarines is even worse.

Kheradruakh the Decapitator - So bad he is never taken. He takes up room in my codex. I had to pay to have his awful rules printed. I have less useable characters in my army because he is there.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

Apparently, now if you are fielding special characters to WAAC thats a different story, but going "Hey look I like this character, and I want to field him" then I would just tell you go screw yourself. I am willing to bet there are plenty of counts as models that have names like: Uriel Ventris, Honsou, Ibram Gaunt, Colonel Schaeffer etc.

So, "I like this character and want to use them in my army" is something you respond to with "screw yourself".

Wow, guess I uh, wouldn't be playing with you ever?

woops that was a typo on my part I mean if someone threw a fit about someone doing the "I like this character etc...." I would tell the person throwing the fit to screw themselves, bad typo was bad

There is a special place in my heart for Mephiston-he's the bane of my existence, and a 50% chance of having Iron Arm by swapping for biomancy and making him a T 7-9 Eternal Warrior (Strength, I don't care about as much).My current criticism of SC is that the BT and Tau have not gotten a FAQ letting us take special characters below 1500. They are some of my favorite models that GW has produced (Grimaldus being my all-time favorite).

I think they are all cheesy. Especially Tyranid SCs, and I say that as a Tyranid player. If the Hive cranked out a beast that was totally awesome, why wouldn't it just crank more out? Special characters in the Hive . . . beyond stupid. GW giving half a turd about Tyranid fluff is a stupid expectation though I guess.

As to why I think SCs are cheesy? First, they should be limited to games of a high enough value. Your 40 man SM army gets in a scrap with some Orks and Mephiston comes to help. Yeah . . .
SCs also seem like a way to give any army ridiculous stuff and write it off as being "such a heroic character" that he defies everything possible. Mephiston has the same toughness as a Tyrannofex that probably has more than 25x his mass? Cheese. Really stinky cheese. Cheese that gives teens hardons but still cheese.

TheCaptain wrote:Hah. Anyone complaining that they don't belong are likely just getting wrecked by SC's. I don't field them because I can't fit any of the rules in my fluff, but I have no problem with them. Yes, Eldrad slaps me around with doom and fortune. You betcha Draigowing is a helluva deathstar.

The list goes on.

But they're in the game, everyone can use them, and they can't outsmart Dakka. You just need to bring enough of it.

You're absolutely right. As I mentioned I hate Tau characters, I'm sick of getting slapped around by Aun'Va. That guy is a pain in the ass to deal with. If I have to face him two or three more times, I'll probably burn my Warhammer army, as well as my clothing and go running into the sunset, waving my arms around and trying to get hit by traffic.

Okay...we done with stupid comments? Good. Some of us hate certain special characters because of fluff. A blanket statement that anyone who hates certain special characters MUST be getting stomped by them is...well, stupid. Just as stupid as my comment was. And believe me, my comment WAS stupid. But it was stupid to make a point. And that point is....to see how many times I can say "stupid" in a single post.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

Must say I sort of agree with trench raider. How GW is shoehorning in FOC/USR changes as bound to special characters is annoying as hell. Special force organizations should be a captain/chapter master ability to correspond with librarian's psychic powers and chaplains doing their thing (being really angry?). Commander with TDA makes termies troops, commander with JP makes ASM troops etc... Another better idea was the old 4E traits system.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.

Practically this. I don't mind if people make their own, but they just annoy me, especially when you need them to unlock troops. I mean I can understand Draigo unlocking Paladins as troops since he alone has the authority to summon so many, and the same with the sword dude whose name I'm forgetting, but I have to take Coteaz to get henchmen as troops? Now I can never have a fluffy Ordo Xenos force without being forced to rely on allies.

Trench-Raider wrote:

have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.

Do you have any clue how silly and juvenile this post sounds, especially the "just deal with it" part? Any clue at all?
But then I note your 4channer kiddie meme avatar an your being a kid according to your profile age, so I doubt it.

Run along now....

TR

do you have any clue how "juvenile" giving people a hard time over their choice of HQ is and making the game unpleasant for them, and how "silly" it is to assume that all people who use SC are power gamers? All because you think that named characters are a bad idea?


anyway, I'm off to remove the Decapitator from my army. wouldnt want to be a power gamer, and we all know what a huge beatstick he is so it really isn't fair of me to take him anyway -.-

Trench-Raider wrote:

have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.

Do you have any clue how silly and juvenile this post sounds, especially the "just deal with it" part? Any clue at all?
But then I note your 4channer kiddie meme avatar an your being a kid according to your profile age, so I doubt it.

Run along now....

TR

What, as opposed to your posts? You've been passively aggressive in every single post in the thread so far, implying that, among other things, I'm a WAAC fluff hater because I use SCs every now and then.

Besides not liking them for already stated reasons (SCs showing up everywhere, which is a valid complaint), why are they so horribly broken? Wouldn't it be better to buff generic HQ choices so they were tactically viable in comparison to the SCs? Space Marine Librarians are a good example, they're viable HQ choices despite not being SCs. Comparatively, Chaplains and Captains are gakky, because they don't add much (except Bike Captains).

I hate SCs because they allow GW to make the kind of stupid that is the warphead upgrade scheme: reroll your random and if you wanted to make him at all special to you - stuff you take Zogwort.

So yes, I take zogwort, because I like the way he plays, but I would LOVE to make my own unique warphead.

Gonna side with the screaming mob against SCs. I play GK (shushy you) and even i hate my HQ choices. In small games i run an OM, fluffy and i love the little blighter, running around daemonsword and all. And for bigger? still my OM, but with a generic libby. Only problem is, GK kind of dont have a huge amount of choice with HQs generally. Either take the complete gak SCs, or shoehorn a generic one without much choices.

GMs and brother captains have a good bit of choice, but most things are overcosted (45 points for a shorter ranged assault cannon? really?) to the point i mostly see the GM taken for his one rule, and the captain not at all. Champions are well documented gak that could have been awesome and fluffy, or should have just been treated similar to BT champions (not to steal your thunder guys ). The libby holds a special place in my heart since it went through a team game and ruined 3 LRBTs and 2 LRCs. A good deal of upgrades etc, but again, other than grenades, theres nothing really unique. its the same stuff as i can give to my basic troops, but for a randomly different cost (even SM captains have it better, least they CAN take fluffy, if less seen stuff.)

So leaves me with my inquisitors. Love the fluff, and what does GW do? shoehorn them to fit. Yes, because an OM army book really needs the OX and OH. 3 HQs should not share one page like this. Dont get me wrong, as iv said i love my OM and hes pulled me through hilariously at times. But randomly losing the choice of a daemonsword because i take TDA? Does the holiness of the TDA repel my sword or something? Rather than trying to cram 3 HQs onto a page should have just given the OM some better thought out choices. Anyway i seem to have gone a bit ranty hear apologies.


For those who actually bared with me through that (sorry again), my point WAS, as a GK, even a fluffy HQ is hard to come by, when you only have the choice of giving him the same stuff as your rank and file guys for a higher cost.

Special characters are here to stay for the duration and whether one likes it or not, we must account for them when making an army list.

That said, Mephiston is loathsome to me. As an ork player we have little options for AP2 shooting that aren't abysmally expensive, or too random to be effective. I've seen mobs of boys regularly broken by mephy alone. And that's with the ork boys getting the charge. It's just really rough to face him.

any ultramarines character that isnt either cato sicarius or sergeant telion. i especially cant stand calgar, he is the meaning of arrogance....

lysander. just a death sentence to any IG army

boss snikrot, this one always gets behind the lines and wipes out all my command units every goddammn game

Psycannons have the same profile as assault cannons (on Terminators) except they're S7 instead of 6. They're expensive on GMs because GMs are BS6 and because it's a damn good weapon.

I will probably get ALOT of hate but Kaldor Draigo, Castellan Crowe....
Pretty much anything GK...
Also I absolutely HATE Ghazghkull Thraka when I play against him on the tabletop but love him if I play him, as goes with DoC.
And sometimes I just hate the Necrons characters. I mean some of them are awsome but most are just like Matt Ward, really annoying in theory and will never go away no matter how much you stare coldly at them and pray to the God/s...
But knowing me (unfortunately...) I will probably end up with an army including these guys and a GK army.

Edit: And about that if you have an IC then you are a WAAC person is just stupid. I like most characters in both WHFB and 40k and use many of them regularly in my games (Belial, Joseph Bugman mainly) but I roll them on the battlefield 'cause I love their fluff and the iconic significance of one of the most remembered heroes in the faction and being able to continue their story. Everyone has a different opinion though, just throwing in my own 2 cents
-Bax123

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

Im using Fateweaver alot (basiclly just so that my Daemons can stay alive, and I like him) and I can understand the hate of him. I like him thou, his story and on the table top but I don't mind if he loses his super "reroll all saves" ability if it would make my Daemons more survivable.

Then I that I hate Draigos fluff. But its all just a game by the 4chaos gods (they are not allowed to kill him so they try to force him into each others realm by different means of cunning).

Mephiston I can only say that I agree with all the bad things being said about him.

Imothekh, now that there is risk of nightfight at round 5+ he is even more nastier. 1guy should not be able to hit the whole enemy army every turn. and with S8?? This guy was to good before and his fluff makes me sick, but still it could be worse.

Illuminor thou is the guy I hate the most since he is just a ripoff from Urien Rakarth/Ku'gath/Fabius Bile. But ofc he is "better" and more "cool" and even does that C'tan can't do...

Actually I don't think I like any of the Necron special characters....

Then again even if I dont really dislike most of the special characters and got no big problem of people using them, I really would like to se a bigger possibility to make your own heros with unique abilities and all.
The reason I like the CCS and Chaos Lord so much is since they got a bunch of options, Thou saddly no special rules :/

itisknown wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

agreed XD even if you could put him in a squad it would be something but damn, he's just a kill point waiting to happen :3 best thing you can hope for is keep him in reserve and hope you only roll low when it comes to bringing him on :/

itisknown wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

Rends on a 4+ and has Cleansing Flame; hardly worthless.