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hotsauceman1 wrote:To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

I'll agree with that example, however, one does not mean all special characters. Certain characters are OP, such as Draigo and the listed Lysander, while others are just simply taken for fun such as the Blue Scribes or Lucius to name a few.

It's like saying one in a hundred sweets tastes sour, it doesn't mean they all taste sour.

hotsauceman1 wrote:To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

Khan can outflank terminators in landraiders, alongside entire squads of sternguard and what have you.

People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

-Loki- wrote:People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

At what the special rules? Oh wait same problem.

Draigo, Mephy, Sanguinor, Eldrad, The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

doc1234 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

At what the special rules? Oh wait same problem.

...did you honestly just call Khan OP?

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Draigo, Mephy, Sanguinor, Eldrad, The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

Sergeant Bastonne.
It's very hard with a Dark Angels list and also a Guard list (from experience) armies to not include a IC and get smashed (Not WAAC but let's face it; everyone hates having their army in tatters in the first turn ). I roll Belial and Straken with my forces and sometimes even Chenkov because Belial can milk the best out of the DA's and so does Straken (I'm not the biggest fan of Cadia). I'm serious, I've never seen a list of either who haven't included an IC.
I also don't see why some people hate all IC's and don't like playing them. I just take it like a man. It's a matter of choice for both you and them to maje your army (like you could get a CCS w/Creed, Kell for 225 points or 40 Infantry Platoon with enough points to spend special weapons on them). But if they spend that much on that they miss out on that choice that could be vital for the game.
All fair in the grim universe of Warhammer 40,000

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

At what the special rules? Oh wait same problem.

...did you honestly just call Khan OP?

No, khanes a pretty good guy point was it isnt just stats that make SCs OP. some of these rules are slowed as the fluff

Matt.Kingsley wrote:The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

My problem with special characters actually is the count-as rule. Special characters are meant to be SPECIAL, there is only one tactical genius that is Creed, and only one Eldar of massive dick-age that is Eldrad. To use characters like those and proclaim they are something else is an awfully big statement in my books (so your saying your character is just as good as Vulkan in every possible way, so much that it extends to your entire chapter!!!). If you actually play Blood Angels, then go ahead a use Mephiston, just don't tell me it's not Mephiston because there is only one character anything like him and that's Mephiston.

I remember someone saying something about an individual game taking part in a larger battle. While that's one thought, I would more accurately describe a game as taking place in a campaign. Sure you could come up with the back story behind it all and hell if before you played a pick up game, you and your opponent sat down and discussed some kind of backstory, I'm quite certain you wouldn't feel half as annoyed that they were using a special character.

However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

(Happy 100th post to me )

hotsauceman1 wrote:Lysander, damn i hate him, the str 10 hammer, the enternal warrior, Bolter drills and even worse is that damn sheild.
He should be nerfed.

You would hate my army. Nothing like Lysander and a Librarian leading 19 Death Company.

jadebullet wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Lysander, damn i hate him, the str 10 hammer, the enternal warrior, Bolter drills and even worse is that damn sheild.
He should be nerfed.

You would hate my army. Nothing like Lysander and a Librarian leading 19 Paladins.

Fixed it for you.
I'll add the Swarmlord to my list, for the same reason as every Necron SC in the 5th Ed book. Personality? No, no, NO!

baxter123 wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Draigo, Mephy, Sanguinor, Eldrad, The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

(Not WAAC but let's face it; everyone hates having their army in tatters in the first turn ).

thank you, IG especially suffer from this, hell i lost my 2 valkyries and a leman russ executioner on the first turn, , so in any case like this people are going to want to win at least one match so they end up getting baddass IC sooner or later

At my Club, We take friendly jabs on which unit will die first. ITs always the land raiders or vindicators.

The_Solitaire wrote:
However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

Why does playing your book the way it's written make someone come off as a douche?

Fafnir wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:
However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

Why does playing your book the way it's written make someone come off as a douche?

Because he feels you shouldn't play it that way.

The only issue I have is the same as others have already mentioned. Some SCs are essentially "must take" either to unlock troops options (Coteaz/Crowe/Draigo) or because they are just far too good (for the points) to leave at home compared to generic HQs.

The fluff doesn't really bother me, some of it is pretty funny actually.

Maybe I just don't take 40k seriously enough.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:The only issue I have is the same as others have already mentioned. Some SCs are essentially "must take" either to unlock troops options (Coteaz/Crowe/Draigo) or because they are just far too good (for the points) to leave at home compared to generic HQs.

The fluff doesn't really bother me, some of it is pretty funny actually.

Maybe I just don't take 40k seriously enough.

DoW

TBH Crowe and Draigo are the two cases I don't mind being forced to take an SC to access troops. Crowe is head of his order, no one else really has the authority to call so many up, and the same with Draigo and Paladins. But yeah, Coteaz pisses me off so much. I swear if I could take henchmen as troops I would probably run a mixed Guard Army by using Grey Knights and Guard Allies (infantry platoons and tanks).

Buttons wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

More of a grudge than anything against Bastonne, because a frind of mine always uses him, and he SOMEHOW manages to screw me
That's what extra orders and regrouping can do if done right

Your friend is the first who I hear about using Bastonne.

I have to say, Eldrad is just one annoying jerk. one guy at my local GW takes him and a farseer council, and so far I wasn't able to even touch him.

I have a slight disliking of Vulkan. mainly its the model, but also because TFG at my GW always complains about it. every time I talk about useing a diffrent model or counting it as my own special home made character, he always yells "buy the F***ing model! you cant use vulkan in your Iron knights chapter! he is only for salamanders!" It's really getting annoying.

Tiger9gamer wrote:I have to say, Eldrad is just one annoying jerk. one guy at my local GW takes him and a farseer council, and so far I wasn't able to even touch him.

I have a slight disliking of Vulkan. mainly its the model, but also because TFG at my GW always complains about it. every time I talk about useing a diffrent model or counting it as my own special home made character, he always yells "buy the F***ing model! you cant use vulkan in your Iron knights chapter! he is only for salamanders!" It's really getting annoying.

Correct me if im wrong, but im fairly certain either the rule book, or maybe the codexs, encourage using the characters as you own thing? so to speak? try and find the reference and rub it in his face lol

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

More of a grudge than anything against Bastonne, because a frind of mine always uses him, and he SOMEHOW manages to screw me
That's what extra orders and regrouping can do if done right

It's a T3 W1 model in a squad of T3 W1 models with at best a 4+ armor save, that nearly doubles the base cost of the unit, he costs more than a Company Command squad with 5 dudes and 7 wounds that's able to issue to full set of orders twice to different units.

I don't mean to offend, but it's hard to see where a single Über expensive vet squad is going to swing games that much

you'd be suprised

Draigo and Dante and grimnar, freakin op cheese

Buttons wrote:What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

I like this idea.

He's really not that bad, just not overly necessary. He makes a melta squad much more likely to take out that pesky Land Raider, can help a plasma squad not kill themselves (provided they're shooting at something big), and it's always nice to have a power sword knocking around, even if it's only WS4 S3.

The problem is, anything he provides can be provided just as well (if not better) by having another vet squad. Since they're cheap and plentiful anyway, it makes him very 'meh'. If he could give a boost to Stormtroopers, as Buttons mentioned, that could potentially be somewhat more of a niche he could fill.

But now we're getting into proposed rules and I don't want to derail the thread too much.

DoW

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:
However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

Why does playing your book the way it's written make someone come off as a douche?

Because he feels you shouldn't play it that way.

Exactly.
@Fafnir Are you saying that you wouldn't take a couple minutes before the game to discuss some possible background to make both yours and your opponents game more enjoyable?

Gorfang EadSplitta wrote:Draigo and Dante and grimnar, freakin op cheese

......

oh......oh my......



someone really did just call dante cheese.....oh my god this has made my day XD I can not think of a more useless SC in the blood angel codex, hell even seth is more usefull

Von Chogg wrote:To all the Eldrad haters, Eldar kinda need him to function competitively, or run 2 seers. Don't get me wrong, I went to a tourney with only a farseer, but that's coz everything else is so damn expensive.

Our farseers are over costed, like everything else, so Eldrad is one of the few choices for HQ that's a good price.

Also, ANY farseer can take the runes of warding to mess with other psykers, so don't hate eldrad for that

Eldrad is so good. Now that he can be taken by allies, watch the abuse. I agree farseers are overcosted, but that doesnt stop Eldrad from being OP.

Does Dante even have EW? IIRC he doesn't.