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Im just going to grab my own tear jar and start collecting. I mean a lot of the other Chaos players cry louder and more often than anybody else even though we have a book that's old and overpriced but still perfectly playable. To look at it any other way is just headsplitting. Out of the Librarius tree 1, 5, and 6 are useful. The rest meh. That puts this tree about on par with biomancy, maybe telepathy. Any I'll bet my entire stack of chips that none of you play in a meta where this will be a game changer. I understand the frustration of being neglected but at least we still have the tools to deal with pretty much anything but tournament level cheese. With Demons we can (and do) run our own tournament level cheese.

I mean one of the army's gets a partial (not even a hard counter) to our cheddar list and I'm reading cries of anti chaos. I hate to break it, but there are other armies that have it a lot worse than we do and their players don't derail threads with a waahmbulance. You cry about screemer star taking a hit by a power that a, libby has a 1/3 chance of getting That's cute because dantestar is just as expensive but literally unplayable. And Ghazgkull Waagh council is 300 points more and still crap, even before you factor in anything else. Im.sorry guys, we had our turn in 3.5 and 6th. The world turns (excepting eldar being as they are always no. 1).

Just gonna cast the +1 Armour and 3+ Invun on my Librarian Dreadnought, nothing to see here....

commander dante wrote:
Just gonna cast the +1 Armour and 3+ Invun on my Librarian Dreadnought, nothing to see here....

If you roll it that is...

Dantes_Baals wrote:
we had our turn in 3.5 and 6th.

In 6th there was Hellpigeon abuse, black mace and few other things (the usual nurgle used now, because there is nothing else, almost) . All stuff that went out of businness after the power level of the edition ramped up, leaving CSM and DA in the dust.

Moreover, one could argue that a CSM book should work for 4 gods and undivided, not for one god and half and have countless useless units from day 1. Few overpowered, poorly thought combos that become obsolete some month later do not justify the impossibility of using 75% of the codex. A codex is not a good codex when allows 1-2 combos to be the king of the hill for a while. A good codex has decent amount of fluff, fluff and mechanics matching, and different ways to build an army that is good if well played but not overpowered.

At the moment, I cannot think about a GW codex checking all the boxes, actually.

So, no; CSM did not "have their turn" in 6th. 6th edition codex was ill-conceived, full of randumb ideas. I fear Kelly was forced to put it out incomplete, as a sort of draft. But they had to churn it out (DA as well) because of Dark Vengeance.

I say it loud: Dark Vengeance ruined CSM.

I'd argue for the first half of 6th until Tau or SM came out, but feel free to disagree. We were doing just fine until Taudar came out and even then the book was nothing to sneeze at. Especially with Demons or necrons allied. Speaking of Demons in 6th, no right to complain. At. All. There were only 3 mono CSM builds that could hold their own in the latter half of 6th, but again, most books couldn't manage that. I just feel like way too many CSM folks are complaining about their bronze age swords while a mess of others have to make do with rusty, horribly crafted steel batons. And I whole heartedly agree that 6th was a God awful mess in general though.

I wonder how the access is granted specifically. Will Sevrin (FW - Red Scorpions) be able to pick from one of the new lists?

nekooni wrote:
I wonder how the access is granted specifically. Will Sevrin (FW - Red Scorpions) be able to pick from one of the new lists?

No, but then again, those downloads were for 6th edition. I'm 95% sure FW will get around to updating them, either online or via Badab War v2.

 Frozocrone wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I wonder how the access is granted specifically. Will Sevrin (FW - Red Scorpions) be able to pick from one of the new lists?

No, but then again, those downloads were for 6th edition. I'm 95% sure FW will get around to updating them, either online or via Badab War v2.

Do we have the wording for how access is granted to the new lists in general?

I'm willing to bet Sevrin loses his ability to pick whenever they update the Badab book(s).

But since Loth has different access to abilities than normal Marine Librarians, it can't be assumed he has access to the new stuff until it's specified otherwise by FW, or house ruled by whatever tournament FAQ you use. :p

As ever I still can't understand why people think the Chaos book sucks. I still see it winning games against the ''top-tier'' armies like Necrons and Space Marines.

I mean, just last night I got stomped by Chaos Marines. I was playing Space Marines. My Land Raider got blown up on Turn 1, the Hammernators inside got weakened by a Nurgle Psyker on Turn Two and were shot to death. A Nurgle Mace Prince slaughtered half my army without me being able to do anything to it. Noise Marines slaughtered the rest. My opponent didn't even use a Helldrake in his list.

You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

 Swampmist wrote:
You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

Wait you can play 40k without going full ham and have fun?

*shock, horror*

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

Wait you can play 40k without going full ham and have fun?

*shock, horror*

I like how you completely ignore the context of his post, construct a strawman, and then argue against something that's completely irrelevant to anything regarding the discussion. Good job!

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Im just going to grab my own tear jar and start collecting. I mean a lot of the other Chaos players cry louder and more often than anybody else even though we have a book that's old and overpriced but still perfectly playable. To look at it any other way is just headsplitting. Out of the Librarius tree 1, 5, and 6 are useful. The rest meh. That puts this tree about on par with biomancy, maybe telepathy. Any I'll bet my entire stack of chips that none of you play in a meta where this will be a game changer. I understand the frustration of being neglected but at least we still have the tools to deal with pretty much anything but tournament level cheese. With Demons we can (and do) run our own tournament level cheese.

I mean one of the army's gets a partial (not even a hard counter) to our cheddar list and I'm reading cries of anti chaos. I hate to break it, but there are other armies that have it a lot worse than we do and their players don't derail threads with a waahmbulance. You cry about screemer star taking a hit by a power that a, libby has a 1/3 chance of getting That's cute because dantestar is just as expensive but literally unplayable. And Ghazgkull Waagh council is 300 points more and still crap, even before you factor in anything else. Im.sorry guys, we had our turn in 3.5 and 6th. The world turns (excepting eldar being as they are always no. 1).

Marines get a power that negates the biggest effect of what is easily our most obnoxious ability. Great, so what about for the vast majority of us who don't run the most abusive crap our book allows for?

Librarius powers make Marines into a win-button vs. Daemons that aren't optimising...
Tzeentch is royally screwed, being reduced to Flamers/Exalt Flamers/Chariots/Grinders for shooting now.
Librarians are almost guaranteed to remove our powers if/when landing that spell, while at worst they likely remove the casting ability of a psyker for a turn. (unless they roll snake eyes, or a 1,2/2,1 on their 2D6 vs. D6 roll)
Combine the -2 invuln save power with GK's and/or Santic in general (which synergises well because Sanctuary + Veil = super cheddar) and marines can now remove every single invuln bonus Daemons get access to.

Sure, it's not 5th ed Warp Quake levels of pants-on-head stupid, but it's getting close.

I'm actually kinda disappointed with this release. There are a lot of cool powers like the moving terrain, moving people, -2 on invuln saves, but I know most of these are gonna be ignored and people are just gonna take the 1 or 2 super strong ones, like Telepathy and Iron Arm.

I'm going to go for that tech one so I can move my opponent into charge range T1. I already see the possiblites.

Get the swap? Put Draigo and Purifiers into the enemy deploy and charge his swapped unit with your own guys. Cleansing flame for bonus points.

Get the Magnet? Pull the fools into no man's land.

I'm gonna be having fun.

 Thud wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
You brought a Landraider and Hammernators. Not exactly an optimized list.

Wait you can play 40k without going full ham and have fun?

*shock, horror*

I like how you completely ignore the context of his post, construct a strawman, and then argue against something that's completely irrelevant to anything regarding the discussion. Good job!

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Gree wrote:
As ever I still can't understand why people think the Chaos book sucks. I still see it winning games against the ''top-tier'' armies like Necrons and Space Marines.

I mean, just last night I got stomped by Chaos Marines. I was playing Space Marines. My Land Raider got blown up on Turn 1, the Hammernators inside got weakened by a Nurgle Psyker on Turn Two and were shot to death. A Nurgle Mace Prince slaughtered half my army without me being able to do anything to it. Noise Marines slaughtered the rest. My opponent didn't even use a Helldrake in his list.

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists.

Note: in my Ork army, I take 6 Killa Kanz. It's not an optimized list.

killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

Imperial fortune is fine and dandy but it seems the real power comes from moving terrain and units to proc off a T1 charge and assassinate units piecemeal

 Xenomancers wrote:
killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

I'm going to assume your joking. Against a fluffy list? Sure. Against an optimized list? Yeah right. One shaken or stun and you're screwed. Also, don't forget, they can shake themselves! due to the Cowardly Grots rule. Also, they're only AV 10, HP 2. They ain't scaring no one. Rokkits or Big Shoota are the only way to go, at least you can Snap shoot those.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

I'm going to assume your joking. Against a fluffy list? Sure. Against an optimized list? Yeah right. One shaken or stun and you're screwed. Also, don't forget, they can shake themselves! due to the Cowardly Grots rule. Also, they're only AV 10, HP 2. They ain't scaring no one. Rokkits or Big Shoota are the only way to go, at least you can Snap shoot those.

AV11, give the Kans of alien beans their proper due. Also Grotzookas throw out a lot of high strength blasts which can drop buckets of hits on the enemy. Shaken results hurt but only the one who took the hit, not the rest of the squadron. Cowardly Grot is a terrible rule which stinks but snap shooting Rokkits or Big Shootas isn't much better. The problem with all of these is that they are guns on a dinky walker squadron but if you where so inclined to bring Kanz them then Grotzookas are the only worth while weapon to give them. Grot Tanks are the better Grotzooka delivery system all things considered though.

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

 Vankraken wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
killa kans with grotzooka is not that bad

I'm going to assume your joking. Against a fluffy list? Sure. Against an optimized list? Yeah right. One shaken or stun and you're screwed. Also, don't forget, they can shake themselves! due to the Cowardly Grots rule. Also, they're only AV 10, HP 2. They ain't scaring no one. Rokkits or Big Shoota are the only way to go, at least you can Snap shoot those.

AV11, give the Kans of alien beans their proper due. Also Grotzookas throw out a lot of high strength blasts which can drop buckets of hits on the enemy. Shaken results hurt but only the one who took the hit, not the rest of the squadron. Cowardly Grot is a terrible rule which stinks but snap shooting Rokkits or Big Shootas isn't much better. The problem with all of these is that they are guns on a dinky walker squadron but if you where so inclined to bring Kanz them then Grotzookas are the only worth while weapon to give them. Grot Tanks are the better Grotzooka delivery system all things considered though.

Touche on the armor. Still, at the cost of two Powerfists for a barebones Kan, if I was running competitive I'd take Deffkoptas hands down. Jetbike rules, Jink, TL Rokkits, and the same S6 AP2 attacks on a tough platform for roughly the same cost.

I've actually never tried them or the KMB and I have a friendly game this Friday, so I'll try out the Grotzookas on one squad of 3 and the KMBs on another squad of 3. But my money is still on the Big Shoota or Rokkits. The range is better and I can play the kite game and then chop up anyone who dares get close to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

This I'm excited for, because the 40 Flesh Hounds I usually run get DTW on a 4+ against Psyker powers.

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

But my hyperbole and over reactions! It's not like the majority of the stuff he will be denying with will be level 3 versus the level 2 of white scars or anything!

Or the fact that any Tzeentch list will out psychic dice a marines list!

Instead, let's just complain like a five year old for a week about it!

It does make grey knight libbys considerably better, but yeah I don't know if librarius beats out telepathy or biomancy in general...

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Daemons cannot effortlessly deny every power throw their way, especially against the likes of GK's and/or Libby Conclaves who get bonuses to push through more casting attempts.
Nor does every single Daemon player play a list that gaks out 25+ WC's while summoning 1000pts/turn.

Optimised Daemon lists are one thing. But most people don't run fully optimised lists, and against those, Librarius spamming conclaves are going to suck the fun out of the game.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Daemons cannot effortlessly deny every power throw their way, especially against the likes of GK's and/or Libby Conclaves who get bonuses to push through more casting attempts.
Nor does every single Daemon player play a list that gaks out 25+ WC's while summoning 1000pts/turn.

Optimised Daemon lists are one thing. But most people don't run fully optimised lists, and against those, Librarius spamming conclaves are going to suck the fun out of the game.

No but they can generally Deny the one they really don't want going off, especially if it's a malediction. Maybe try a different army?