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nekooni wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

So we don't say anything and pretend everything is fine, while we get handed blander and blander codex's, while loyalists seem to get things taken from CSM of days past, or some new shiny that requires them to shoehorn it into the fluff?

Secondly, you're involved in what units you buy and how you run your army, so yes you can control elements of the game.

See, perfect example. How I run my army has nothing to do with how good or bad the rules for CSM are.
It's some sort of misguided envy and frustration that, since GW doesn't listen, you direct at the only ones that might listen what you say. Like complaining to your wife what an asshat your boss is.
But you blame your wife for it because she earns more money than you. And that's what people are sick and tired of.

I have gracious friends who will tone down the cheddar for games they play against my Chaos.

If you play in tournaments by all means, but pulling your best list out for a pick up game against csm is possibly a TFG moment.

I think what csm players want is an acknowledgement that yes our codex is junk, and that maybe you should take a minute to realise that other players who spend the same money / effort / time on their armies would like to be on equal footing for a change.

Well said Konrax, well said.

That's how I feel with my orks.

You know, I'm actually trying to imagine a Psyker under the effects of Might of Heroes (+2 S, T, I, A), Warp Speed (+3 I, A, Fleet), and Fists of Lightning (+1 S,A and each hit deals 2 S5 AP- hits). That's S10 T6 W2 I9 A8(9 on the charge) with Fleet (plus two S5 AP- hits per successful hit) on a standard Librarian! Total warp charge needed: Freaking 3! Holy hell!

That's what? 11 warp charges mathematically to manifest. I think the only way to have such a beast happen is Sevin Loth in a Libbey Conclave?

Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

I dunno about that. You never know what GW is going to do. I'd say chaos marines have more hope just because their book is much older. BA players have the misfortune of being the LAST book to come out right before the game went on a decurion-extravaganza. And they got a supplement with hilariously bad and typically unusable at smaller point levels non-decurion formations as well, so it's gonna be a WHILE before they get anything other than being told to just run as red codex marines.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

I dunno about that. You never know what GW is going to do. I'd say chaos marines have more hope just because their book is much older. BA players have the misfortune of being the LAST book to come out right before the game went on a decurion-extravaganza. And they got a supplement with hilariously bad and typically unusable at smaller point levels non-decurion formations as well, so it's gonna be a WHILE before they get anything other than being told to just run as red codex marines.

Well, Blood Angels do get access to the new Marine lores, so there's that very large boost. Not nearly as God-tier as if they also had access to the Libby conclave itself of course.

But then, Crimson Slaughter got "the BA treatment" in their formations, as their 'super formation-formation' only requires the ever-so-minor investment of what is it - 2040pts or so? (with 0 upgrades!)
The Black Legion stuff is better, but then, it still almost certainly is forced to pay the 'Black Legion Tax', as it's highly unlikely that GW has removed the requirement which forces every single model to buy the VotLW upgrade.

I also have a feeling that BA's will get their 7.5ed codex before CSM's, since we've had fairly reliable rumors saying "no Chaos codex until mid 2017". That gives you guys a 13'ish month window (assuming a June 2017 release for CSM's) to get some additional love before Chaos does.

The "best" that Chaos currently has to hope for, is that the highly new rumored Thousand Sons kit coming "after summer", finally allows for some minor upgrades for the squad. (a Heavy bolter would be nice, while a sorcerous Kai gun would be a dream come true!)
Odds are though, GW won't want to screw with the current codex entry, and thus, the new kit will contain nothing but bolter marines, and thus, continue to doom the coolest blue marines in existence to being at most, pretty shelf decorations...

I don't think anyone denies that Chaos Space Marines currently have the gak end of the stick, and have had it since mid way through 6th.

No reason to come gak all over every loyalist thread, though.

Thousand Sons especially have always been bad.

What BA really need is...
WS/BS4 Scouts
Terminators to decrease by 25 points
FORMATIONS
Gabriel Seth moved back to HQ, and get his old 'Kick you in the Balls' rule
All our Dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks base
Mephiston to get an Invun, or EW
Taking Death Company Tycho/Astorath moves Death Company to Troops (this would actually make Tycho be used)
Death company Squad Size bumped back up to 30
Dante gets Orbital Bombardment
Dante Doesnt scatter on Deep Strike
Dante gets his old Mask back

Don't forget
- access to the Storm Talon (being the Fast assault army and all)
- access to the LSS for the same reason as the talon
- Our reclusiarch back
- Sang Priest needs to be 1-3 per slot again
- Grav cannons for devs and troops
- vehicle squadrons.

Add commander dantes suggestions to these and BAM! BA are perfectly playable again even though they still don't have CT and only 2 decent formations that cost over half your allowed points. I doubt they be competitive even then, but at least they'd move up to middle of the mid-tier. Not worst army in the fething game.

Seriously if I were on the GW design team I could FAQ that on the toilet before I need to wipe, but we all know it ain't happening this edition.

On a separate note, I thought this release was supposed to be a 30th birthday gig for space marines... Im starting to think all of those "battle honors " BA are famous for were participation awards. GW'S way of saying, "yea you guys suck balls, but thanks for showing up anyway".

Decrease Terminators by 25 points? So you want 10 point termies? I Lold.

Are BA termies not already 35points? I thought they were the first ones to get that?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Decrease Terminators by 25 points? So you want 10 point termies? I Lold.

Are BA termies not already 35points? I thought they were the first ones to get that?

Pretty sure he meant per squad. And nope. Our termies are 40 points still and that's minus chapter tactics. Lol feth GW.

To be fair, your chapter tactics are furious charge and... Uh... Plus one initiative on the charge if you take that one detachment. Yeah, you don't even get two or three things like Space Wolves...

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Yes, BA are pretty bad too. But BA do have something CSM never will - hope.

I dunno about that. You never know what GW is going to do. I'd say chaos marines have more hope just because their book is much older. BA players have the misfortune of being the LAST book to come out right before the game went on a decurion-extravaganza. And they got a supplement with hilariously bad and typically unusable at smaller point levels non-decurion formations as well, so it's gonna be a WHILE before they get anything other than being told to just run as red codex marines.

What I mean is that I get the distinct sense that BA being horrible was an accident whereas CSM being horrible was intentional. So when BA get revised there's a good chance they'll get better. I expect CSM will stay the same or get worse.

 Crazyterran wrote:
To be fair, your chapter tactics are furious charge and... Uh... Plus one initiative on the charge if you take that one detachment. Yeah, you don't even get two or three things like Space Wolves...

Because acute senses is so helpful on the one unit that can outflank. Oh wait we can roll a warlord trait or roll a 6 with one detachment.

I just heard a TWC commander over the Vox. He was accompanied by a pair of wulfen and they said that that the strongest CC army in the game lost all complaining priveliges a LONG time ago.

Counter Attack is one of the better rules for an assault army, too, since it isn't game over if they don't get the charge.

Oh, and as said above, the best combat army in the game doesn't get to talk.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Decrease Terminators by 25 points? So you want 10 point termies? I Lold.

Are BA termies not already 35points? I thought they were the first ones to get that?

Pretty sure he meant per squad. And nope. Our termies are 40 points still and that's minus chapter tactics. Lol feth GW.

At least BA's don't have to pay additional pts for their Chapter Tactics equivalents...

On the other hand, Chaos Marines do get to have that distinct "advantage".

 Crazyterran wrote:
I don't think anyone denies that Chaos Space Marines currently have the gak end of the stick, and have had it since mid way through 6th.

No reason to come gak all over every loyalist thread, though.

Thousand Sons especially have always been bad.

Uh, Chaos Marines have been taking it up the poop chute ALOT longer than just 'since 6th edition'...

We lost everything flavourful and unique during the great 4th ed purging (only to see Loyalists turn around and get everything we'd just lost and then some!), were skipped over entirely through 5th, and got a re-hashing of the JJ gakfest as a sorry excuse of a "new" codex. (which still wasn't ever really an actual 6th ed codex!)

 Crazyterran wrote:
Counter Attack is one of the better rules for an assault army, too, since it isn't game over if they don't get the charge.

Oh, and as said above, the best combat army in the game doesn't get to talk.

This is a great example of why the some people in this game are part of the overall problem with 40k.

 Konrax wrote:

I have gracious friends who will tone down the cheddar for games they play against my Chaos.

If you play in tournaments by all means, but pulling your best list out for a pick up game against csm is possibly a TFG moment.

I think what csm players want is an acknowledgement that yes our codex is junk, and that maybe you should take a minute to realise that other players who spend the same money / effort / time on their armies would like to be on equal footing for a change.

Your codex is junk, noone (well, maybe GW - maybe!) disagrees on that one. If a C:SM player brings his Skyhammer + Gladius SF to fight a C:CSM guy, he's that fething guy, no questions asked.
Nor does anyone claim that you should have to put more effort into your army just because you play C:CSM. That's a ridiculous notion.

And this "you are to blame" / "you think Chaos has to suck and you're a bad person for it" bs is what is really annoying.

nekooni wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

I have gracious friends who will tone down the cheddar for games they play against my Chaos.

If you play in tournaments by all means, but pulling your best list out for a pick up game against csm is possibly a TFG moment.

I think what csm players want is an acknowledgement that yes our codex is junk, and that maybe you should take a minute to realise that other players who spend the same money / effort / time on their armies would like to be on equal footing for a change.

Your codex is junk, noone (well, maybe GW - maybe!) disagrees on that one. If a C:SM player brings his Skyhammer + Gladius SF to fight a C:CSM guy, he's that fething guy, no questions asked.
Nor does anyone claim that you should have to put more effort into your army just because you play C:CSM. That's a ridiculous notion.

And this "you are to blame" / "you think Chaos has to suck and you're a bad person for it" bs is what is really annoying.

And yet, it's still pretty common to hear cries of ultimate cheese coming from Marine players because the Chaos player took a single Heldrake, or the big, bad, meanie Daemon player summoned a new unit of Bloodletters.

Or how back in 5th edition, Grey Knight players routinely trotted out the "lolz!L2P/Git Gud" to every single Daemon player who so much as questioned the fact that their army was literally a near-instant win vs. the vastly underpowered Daemons.

commander dante wrote:

Dante gets Orbital Bombardment

Until all the Dark Angels Captains(Sammael, Belial, and Azrael) and the other fleet based Chapters get Orbital Bombardment, I object to this one. Hell the only named Captain/Chapter Master I can think of with access to Orbital Bombardments is Pedro Kantor!

 Kanluwen wrote:

commander dante wrote:

Dante gets Orbital Bombardment

Until all the Dark Angels Captains(Sammael, Belial, and Azrael) and the other fleet based Chapters get Orbital Bombardment, I object to this one. Hell the only named Captain/Chapter Master I can think of with access to Orbital Bombardments is Pedro Kantor!

Calgar? He maybe lost it, but he used to, back when Chapters could all do it. Dante should have it, Azrael, Logan, Helbrecht and Calgar should all have it.