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 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't think I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Do you play Solo CSM, or with FW and\or Daemon allies? Because forgeworld helps A LOT, with dreadclaws for getting melee stuff into combat, chaos knights being pretty decent in general, and daemon synergy existing.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Ah, and here we have it, the ever classic "L2P" argument! Huzzah!

Never mind, wrong post.

 Swampmist wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Do you play Solo CSM, or with FW and\or Daemon allies? Because forgeworld helps A LOT, with dreadclaws for getting melee stuff into combat, chaos knights being pretty decent in general, and daemon synergy existing.

I wish I had a dreadclaw. I do run FW, but in the form of a decimator engine or a sicaran. Nothing I would consider a handicap like a typhon, Fire Raptor or a Brass Scorpion. I've also got a self-converted Kytan but he only shows up via opponent request or if the opponent is running knight (s).

I do play KDK and occasionally run CSM allies with them, but in this case I'm talking just the CSM book (with maybe a so-so FW model).

Dreadclaws are expensive and kinda meh, I think.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Gree wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:

Yeah, dude, I was arguing that an optimized chaos list beating an unoptimized marine list isn't overly suprising, especially with a lucky e plosion result for chaos. Its fine if he wants to play those lists, but they don't prove that CSM isn't a bottom-tier army.

Of course I suppose I should have added that my experience was of course anecdotal. I just don't see the terrible performance that people keep on talking about for some reason.

The Chaos list wasn't really optimized though. No Heldrake and two units of Raptors. I had taken an Inquisitor and a Culexus in order to counter his psykers. He wasn't running a sort of hardcore tournament list. I had actually crafted that list in particular to see if I could have hard countered him.

It's not even that particular list even. No matter what list or strategy I try against him, I can't seem to beat him. (Barring the rare game where I roll very well) The same goes for his Tyranids as well. He has the particular knack of winning games against all the ''good'' armies in our local meta with the armies people say are horrible.

 jreilly89 wrote:

So? I can punk people all day long with my Orks because I'm a better player and they run crappy SM armies. That doesn't make the Ork book any better at tournies facing skilled players and optimized lists..

As I said before, I don't I was running the best SM list ever, but I don't think I was running a crappy list either.

I have no interest in tournaments at all. I haven't been following them in years.

Exactly. This whole "noes CSM are unplayable because GW hates everyone but space marines" is utterly flippin stupid. Like I said many times before, I understand the irritation of being neglected, but not getting new stuff and having an utterly gakky dex are two different things. As long as im.not going up against Decurion with Orikanstar, Riptidewing, or Thunder-Bike-Cavalry I'm confident that I have a shot at winning. You guys might want to take down the time and date because I would normally never say this, but I'm starting to think it's a generalship problem compound ed by envy and not so much a faction problem.

Ah, and here we have it, the ever classic "L2P" argument! Huzzah!

Like I said, that is probably the only time I'll ever say that and I never have before. There's been a whole lot of CSM players sporting torches and pitchforks as of late (IMO it's not really THAT bad) and as I said before even though our book leaves a lot to be desired it is definitely playable if you know what you're doing. I perform pretty well in my groups casual games and can hold my own in competitive games with a few exceptions (although it is definitely an uphill battle ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Dreadclaws are expensive and kinda meh, I think.

My buddy let me run his a few times before and it's a godsend compared to having to run a gakky big metal bawks or a lot of small metal bawkses make of slaneesh's empty beer cans.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Cindis wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Looking at the scans, Null Zone cannot make an invuln worse than a 6++.

That's annoying at worst for most of our units, especially anything from the Troops section.
It's pants-on-head broken as gak when you can strip a 300+pts model's only real save to pretty much nothing however.

Any store/event that doesn't require players to choose their psychic lores at list creation is now going to be awful for Daemon armies... Marine opponent sees you have Daemons? Awesome, prepare to face nothing but Librarius + Santic spam.

Deny the Witch is a thing...

Contrary to popular belief, Daemons cannot effortlessly deny every power throw their way, especially against the likes of GK's and/or Libby Conclaves who get bonuses to push through more casting attempts.
Nor does every single Daemon player play a list that gaks out 25+ WC's while summoning 1000pts/turn.

Optimised Daemon lists are one thing. But most people don't run fully optimised lists, and against those, Librarius spamming conclaves are going to suck the fun out of the game.

It's hardly fair to be comparing unoptimized lists against the Librarius Conclave though. It's essentially the best psyker in the game.

I'd be fine with completely revamping psychic powers again and bringing them back under control, but I'm more than a little biased.

So here is my theory. Run a Librarius Conclave. One of the Librarians has the Bones of Osrak. Aim for Veil of Time and Forewarning. Give a Unit a 4++ Rerollable. Profit?

I'd rather have sanctuary on hammernators.

 Quickjager wrote:
I'd rather have sanctuary on hammernators.

I don't have Hammernators to attach it to. I have Pedro Kantor and Invulnerableless Honour Guard. Forewarning gives the most bang for the buck due to not being Sanctic and giving a 4++. I could aim for Invisibility too. Nothing is going to get through that very easily, not even D.

Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

They are a blender unit that has to survive a turn of shooting in order to survive. They have a 2+ armour save, but that is hardly reliable anymore. A 4++ for the whole unit, Rerollable saves (Pedro would tank), or only being hit on Snap Shots (again, Pedro tanking) is a good way to keep them going. Bones of Osrak helps that out too since harnessing is a lot easier with more warp charges and 4+ Rerollable harnessing. Librarius Conclave just makes it downright unfair. Especially since I could potentially get all three defensive powers on this squad. And they WILL wreck anything they come into contact with.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos at one point actually had highly flavourful rules, including well represented Legions, a huge swath of various mutations to customise characters, God-specific wargear for everyone (not just Khorne!)...
Were there issue with the 3.5 codex? Absolutely. Iron Warriors & Siren Princes rightly needed to be reined in and/or simply burn in a car fire. But the basics were all there, and Chaos was never more fun to play than they were at the time.

Then what happened? GW (or rather Jervis) decided that Legions and options and God-specific armouries and fluffy Sacred Numbers rules were far to complicated and overly complex, and then blanderised the living hell out of our book.
And then they turn around and give Loyalist Marines literally everything they claimed was too complex about Chaos

There's no flavour or crunch left to Chaos. It's a book that's playing with a rules set that's 10+ years old, and your "identity" is based entirely on a paint scheme.
There is a very obvious anti-Chaos bias that's pervaded GW for the past decade. None of our releases are anywhere close to what everyone else gets... Sure other armies have some equally terrible rules, but at least they're getting a tone of model love. Chaos Marines though aren't even worthy of that! Our model line is the oldest, most incomplete, and gakkiest looking on GW store shelves.
And yet, with Daemons, GW proved that random can be fun & highly doable, but with Chaos Marines, randumb is just a way to keep kicking the blind, crippled kid further down the street.
Meanwhile, the Daemon model line has been given the same, routine treatment, and is now nearly all plastic... (only Furies, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, Beasts, a couple Heralds/SC's and the Greaters left to go!)

Meanwhile, Imperials keep getting rules & units that are literally carbon copies and/or based heavily on what were once unique Chaos units/abilities, because... "Reasons".

Chaos has been taking it up the poop chute longer than anyone, while repeatedly getting to watch as Loyalists continue to pee in our cereal and then simply laughed at and told to just "L2P/Git Gud".

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

nekooni wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

So we don't say anything and pretend everything is fine, while we get handed blander and blander codex's, while loyalists seem to get things taken from CSM of days past, or some new shiny that requires them to shoehorn it into the fluff?

Secondly, you're involved in what units you buy and how you run your army, so yes you can control elements of the game.

Whine to GW, then, as they wont hear all of you complaining here.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Whine to GW, then, as they wont hear all of you complaining here.

Online discussion forums about a tabletop game, run by fans, would seem to be an excellent place for fans of said game to discuss their issues with it...particularly when GW hs none of their own forums.

There's a difference between discussing it and bogging down every thread about anything to do with Loyalists with a constant and unending stream of garbage about the CSM Dex.

Make a thread to discuss the CSMs treatment, if you want to discuss it, and keep it out of every other thread.

Otherwise, it's more 'git gud' if for no other reason than to spite people who post about it.

CSM are the new BA? Yeah, I went there.

I am sure they will be quick to point out that BA can always ally in Gravturions/Librarius/etc., while conveniently forgetting they can ally in DThirsters/Take Belakor/etc.

Because that's different.

And Orks can ally in Eldar. The ally argument is completely invalid.

And plague marines are still better than anything in C:BA. But I've tried to drop it in general, as BA have been made a footnote by GW.

It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Eh, Vanilla Marines were very strong the first part of 5E...vulkan drop pod spam won a lot of events. They just got eclipsed later by...other marines

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Eh, Vanilla Marines were very strong the first part of 5E...vulkan drop pod spam won a lot of events. They just got eclipsed later by...other marines

I never found it that great, and I was playing with the WD BA codex. You just had to take advantage of them being on foot after dropping. And being unable to assault. 5th ed vanilla was not that great ever. Expensive units and predictable tactics. Having to get that close and then having no mobility afterwards was never a strong plan, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:
It would be quite fun to see, what happens when GW decides in 8th Edition:
SM are overpowered as hell, let`s take all the shiny stuff from them away, and shoehorn them to Orks/Tyranids/CSM....
But that would never happen, because a SM-fan/Chaos-hater writes the 40k-rules.

This is very strange for me, because vanilla marines were mediocre in 5th, and unplayable in 2nd. They were fantastic at the start of 3rd, but got progressively weaker.

Eh, Vanilla Marines were very strong the first part of 5E...vulkan drop pod spam won a lot of events. They just got eclipsed later by...other marines

I never found it that great, and I was playing with the WD BA codex. You just had to take advantage of them being on foot after dropping. And being unable to assault. 5th ed vanilla was not that great ever. Expensive units and predictable tactics. Having to get that close and then having no mobility afterwards was never a strong plan, imo.

Vulkan Drop Pod spam and White Scar biker lists were solid all through 5th.
They only got eclipsed once the likes of army-wide FnP BA parking lots, SW Trollhunters + Longwang spam, and eventually 'I-Win' Knights showed up.

Vanilla Marines were crap in 3rd, though not quite as crap as the 1st CSM codex of 3rd.
BA's were godly, being even faster than freaking Dark Eldar were! and then of course, SW's, the only Marine army that's maintained a level of constant cheddar in a manner similar to Eldar over the years, were even better than BA's.
Chaos 3.5ed made Marines very, very sad, and then went on to win the Eye of Terror campaign, which apparently was very, very naughty of them & shouldn't have happened.

Really, it's been Dark Angels (the half-Chaos Loyalist marines who simply can't admit they're really Chaos), and, CSM's who've been the traditionally 'crap' power armoured books. Both have only ever really had 1 shining moment of glory; 1st Chaos in 3.5ed, and now DA's with their 7.5ed codex.

Honestly, the only thing that Chaos players really want is to finally be treated as equals with all the other power armoured books, and to (for once) get some models that don't date back to 2001 and earlier! (which is almost our entire "current" model line)

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Oh boy, now people are going to hate Marines even more. This is the LAST thing we needed

People already hate marines. Look at Experiment 626. I had to throw her on the ignore list because every other post is a rant about how helpless chaos are, how there's a conspiracy against them etc. Tau Eldar and Necrons are eons worse, but we get just as much hate as everybody but tau.

And I'm definitely digging the forewarning on honorguard. They are already one helluva blender unit who are criminally cheap for what they can do. I'm the only one in my meta who runs em though so it would be awesome for them not to be Grav-weapon foughter.

(I know you won't read this, but, that's your loss...)

Or just maybe it's because Chaos *snip*

The point being is that it's simply annoying that us players are who has to listen to endless rants like that both on message boards as well as IRL. I've had my share of grav-cent whining even before I even owned & played a single fething grav-weapon OR Centurion on my Marines.

It's not us SM players or Tau players or whoever is the last one to receive an update who decided "lets feth over Chaos Marines". It's GW. All you achieve here is constantly piss off other players that have literally no chance to change this nor were we involved in that decision.

EVERYONE knows that CSM is an extremely weak codex, but it's not like we can do anything about it.

So we don't say anything and pretend everything is fine, while we get handed blander and blander codex's, while loyalists seem to get things taken from CSM of days past, or some new shiny that requires them to shoehorn it into the fluff?

Secondly, you're involved in what units you buy and how you run your army, so yes you can control elements of the game.

See, perfect example. How I run my army has nothing to do with how good or bad the rules for CSM are.
It's some sort of misguided envy and frustration that, since GW doesn't listen, you direct at the only ones that might listen what you say. Like complaining to your wife what an asshat your boss is.
But you blame your wife for it because she earns more money than you. And that's what people are sick and tired of.